FAA Set to Raise Retirement Age

[Brown Cow]

Oddly enough, the only two outfits supporting the new rule are Southwest and JetBlue. Both have changed aviation in this country and both are the reason for a significant amount of problems. Now they are creating another one. JetBlue is the worst offender. They haven't done anything good for aviation or for pilots except helping out a few airways furloughs.

 

[Axel]

Fine, raise the age to 65 with 60 max in the left seat.

I'll sit in the lav as long as I get paid for it.

All the old guys want it raised, all the young guys don't. There's a surprise. What is funny is that in 30 years all the old guys will be dead, all the young guys are going to be old guys and will be arguing the other side.

 

[apdsm]

How many of you let your 65 year old parents drive when you are in the car. Thats what I thought

My dad is 85. He just gave me a ride from the airport...

 

[crashpad]

My father flew until he was almost eighty. He was not a professional pilot, but 1,000 times sharper than some of the FOs' I've flown with.
It's a sad statement pilots can't demonstrate humility and admit to themselves raising the age limit would provide limitless opportunity for all of us to learn and grow as professional aviators.

 

[$$$4nothin]

It has nothing to do with humility. It has to do with $$$. I agree that there are a lot of pilots out there that can do the job after age 60. However, the only reason this is an issue is because all of the old pilots have lost there pensions and did not save and prepare accordingly. It sucks that the pensions are gone, but now the older pilot group is messing with my money and I am not going to be happy about that. You can't tell me that if money wasn't an issue all of you older guys would want to do this for another five years. You are right when you say that the young guys will be old in 30 years but ill tell you what. I don't want to do this until im 65. I would rather be makeing a tee time than a show time at 64 years old.

 

[SRJ]

I think what we should be arguing about is how the flight attendants should have a mandatory retirement age.

 

[SWA/FO]

Oddly enough, the only two outfits supporting the new rule are Southwest and JetBlue. Both have changed aviation in this country and both are the reason for a significant amount of problems. Now they are creating another one. JetBlue is the worst offender. They haven't done anything good for aviation or for pilots except helping out a few airways furloughs.

I guess, if you work for a company getting their A$$ kicked by jetBlue and/or Southwest Airlines you might feel that way. Southwest has been great for my aviation career, checking & savings accounts too..

 

[oldxfr8dog]

"Hi I'm from the FAA and I'm here to help." YA RIGHT. I don't want someone who is 64 or 65 driving a car with me in it let alone flying an aircraft. How many of you let your 65 year old parents drive when you are in the car. Thats what I thought

It's amusing to watch the anti-60+people here spinning this as if it were about safety.
Just argue honestly: it's about upgrades and seniority.

 

[EWR_FO]

It's amusing to watch the anti-60+people here spinning this as if it were about safety.
Just argue honestly: it's about upgrades and seniority.

You could say the same thing about the pro-change crowd. It really isn't about discrimination, just argue honestly: it's all about money.

 

[B727Driver]

How many of these young guns will be sticking around after they turn 60. My guess, a lot. They will chime 'this is my chair, my seniority, my...., my....blah blah blah..and so on. If not, take a few minutes and fill out your letter of resignation and make it effective on your 60th birthday. Not doing it, I thought so. No one can forecast earnings, family situations, investment projections and personal issues that may arise in their lives, not even you $$$4nothin. As a professional pilot, this is our career and it should be up to us when retirement is due. Retirement shouldn't be left up to some corporate bozo, the same one who stole the retirements, wages and benefits of your fellow professionals and laughing all the way to the bank. Know why he is laughing, he knows there are guys just like you who will sell out their fellow pilots for personal gain. Let's kick them to the curb, not the other way around. Those starting today will have the opportunity to fly to 60+, face it, it will happen. This will just give YOU a few more years in the left seat. Greed looks like it is rearing its ugly head, young puke. Nice job!

 

[Yuppyguppy]

Bottom line it's been 60years old since every pilot on this board came into flying. DON'T like it my advice is RETIRE! Thank you. Nothing like not planning and being greedy. Stinks like old socks.

 

[oldxfr8dog]

You could say the same thing about the pro-change crowd. It really isn't about discrimination, just argue honestly: it's all about money.

Of course it is! But if you discriminated against them for for race or religion, how would it be different? They are being denied a living by a scientificly unproven and arbitrary standard. If it was about safety, why not pull the entire medical at that age? How then can you justify legal part 125, 135 or 91 by over-60 pilots?

 

[EWR_FO]

They are being denied a living by a scientificly unproven and arbitrary standard.

That is your opinion. I personally do not believe it is scientifically unproven or arbitrary so, in that case, it is not discrimination.

 

[oldxfr8dog]

That is your opinion. I personally do not believe it is scientifically unproven or arbitrary so, in that case, it is not discrimination.

If you can show me a valid study showing degraded performance of a 65 y/o vs. 60 y/o, I'll stand corrected. Everything posted so far is just anecdotal.

 

[EWR_FO]

If you can show me a valid study showing degraded performance of a 65 y/o vs. 60 y/o, I'll stand corrected. Everything posted so far is just anecdotal.

I got a fairly in-depth study from my Congressman (Randy Kuhl). I have to admit, I only briefly looked over it before my wife accidentally threw it out. I mostly looked at the graphs and they were all pretty convincing (they all trended up rapidly with age). I honestly can't remember the name of the study or who conducted it, but I'm sure Kuhl's office could provide that.

 

[Deerkiller]

Here's some perspective on the "ICAO does it so we should" argument.

British Airways doesnt let it's pilots fly to 65.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,9077-2457840,00.html

France has a nationwide mandatory retirement of 60 so that takes Air France out of the converstation.

Still looking for info on Lufthansa, KLM, etc...

 

[BoilerUP]

If you can show me a valid study showing degraded performance of a 65 y/o vs. 60 y/o, I'll stand corrected. Everything posted so far is just anecdotal.

Call and ask your car insurance company for age vs. accident statistics. Sure driving isn't flying, but I'm sure that'll show degraded performance at 60 vs. 65.

Yep, it is all about money. Its about folks who used the Age 60 rule to advance their careers to a narrowbody or widebody, from the FE panel to the CA seat, and now are crying "age discrimination!!!!" when really they don't want to relinquish their seniority, vacation, and the top earning potential of their entire lives. If it was "love of the job" they'd become airport bums, flight instructors, work in a training center somewhere or go fly corp/frax/charter...but lets not kid ourselves here.

Its also about younger pilots (like myself) who see our movement to the left seat and/or the major airlines stagnated for 5 or more years whenever this comes to fruition. Its about being fair and maintaining the career expectations we all had knowing full well when we started in the airlines the mandatory retirement age was sixty.

If 121 pilots can fly until 65, then air traffic controllers should be able to work until at least 62. You should not have to be 35 years old to run for President. I shouldn't be able to be drafted at 18 but have to wait until 21 to buy a farkin' beer, and in the same vein I shouldn't be handed an M4 and sent into Kabul at 18 but can't buy a handgun until 21.

Its all age discrimination, age discrimination!!!

 

[B727Driver]

Why should we give up our seniority, vacation, our livelihood? Leave a career at the top to start at the bottom of a frac? A charter company? Leave it all behind based on a policy that has no basis. What kind of crack are you smoking? Some of us love our career and will do what it takes to keep it. You will have your chance, patience schoolboy. By the way, have you typed up your letter of resignation/retirement yet? Be sure to date it correctly. I'd hate to see you fly past 60, you incompetent safety hazard.

With regards to the examples of age discrimination listed above, starting working on changing them if you feel they are important to you. If not, live with them. We choose to change. Change is good.

 

[Stan]

Call and ask your car insurance company for age vs. accident statistics. Sure driving isn't flying, but I'm sure that'll show degraded performance at 60 vs. 65.

Yep, it is all about money. Its about folks who used the Age 60 rule to advance their careers to a narrowbody or widebody, from the FE panel to the CA seat, and now are crying "age discrimination!!!!" when really they don't want to relinquish their seniority, vacation, and the top earning potential of their entire lives. If it was "love of the job" they'd become airport bums, flight instructors, work in a training center somewhere or go fly corp/frax/charter...but lets not kid ourselves here.

Its also about younger pilots (like myself) who see our movement to the left seat and/or the major airlines stagnated for 5 or more years whenever this comes to fruition. Its about being fair and maintaining the career expectations we all had knowing full well when we started in the airlines the mandatory retirement age was sixty.

If 121 pilots can fly until 65, then air traffic controllers should be able to work until at least 62. You should not have to be 35 years old to run for President. I shouldn't be able to be drafted at 18 but have to wait until 21 to buy a farkin' beer, and in the same vein I shouldn't be handed an M4 and sent into Kabul at 18 but can't buy a handgun until 21.

Its all age discrimination, age discrimination!!!

[FONT=verdana,arial]In the next 20 years the number of elderly drivers (persons 70 & over) is predicted to triple in the United States. As age increases, older drivers generally become more conservative on the road. Many mature drivers modify their driving habits (for instance to avoid busy highways or night-time driving) to match their declining capabilities. However, statistics show that older drivers are more likely than younger ones to be involved in multi-vehicle crashes, particularly at intersections. [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,arial]Research on age-related driving concerns has shown that at around the age of 65 drivers face an increased risk of being involved in a vehicle crash. After the age of 75, the risk of driver fatality increases sharply, because older drivers are more vulnerable to both crash-related injury and death. Three behavioral factors in particular may contribute to these statistics: poor judgement in making left-hand turns; drifting within the traffic lane; and decreased ability to change behavior in response to an unexpected or rapidly changing situation.[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,arial]Concern about the increased number of older drivers and their potentially decreased driving abilities is growing, especially among younger drivers. Statistics, based on all people injured or killed in traffic crashes, indicate that older drivers are at a disproportionate risk for becoming involved in fatal crashes. A NHTSA study of 1995 FARS (Fatal Accident Reporting System) data reports that senior citizens accounted for:[/FONT]

• [FONT=verdana,arial] 5% of all people injured in traffic crashes[/FONT]
• [FONT=verdana,arial]13% of all traffic fatalities[/FONT]
• [FONT=verdana,arial]13% of all vehicle occupant fatalities[/FONT]
• [FONT=verdana,arial]18% of all pedestrian fatalities[/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,arial]In a 1997 NHTSA study, older people made up 9 percent of the population but accounted for 14 percent of all traffic fatalities and 17 percent of all pedestrian fatalities. NHTSA's "Traffic Safety Facts 1997: Older Population" (DOT HS 808 769) reports that:[/FONT]

• [FONT=verdana,arial]In 1997, more than 24 million people in the United States were over 70 years of age.[/FONT]
• [FONT=verdana,arial]Representing 9 percent of the population in 1997, the 70-and-older age group grew 2.1 times faster from 1987 to 1997 than the total population.[/FONT]
• [FONT=verdana,arial]In 1986 older drivers were 7 percent of licensed drivers; in 1996 they were 19 percent of licensed drivers.[/FONT]
• [FONT=verdana,arial]Of traffic fatalities involving older drivers, 82 percent happened in the daytime, 71 percent occurred on weekdays, and 75 percent involved a second vehicle.[/FONT]
• [FONT=verdana,arial]When a crash involved an older driver and a younger driver, the older driver was 3 times as likely as the younger driver to be the one struck. Moreover, 28 percent of crash-involved older drivers were turning left when they were struck-- 7 times more often than younger drivers were struck while making left turns.[/FONT]
• [FONT=verdana,arial]Older drivers involved in fatal crashes and fatally injured older pedestrians claimed the lowest proportion of intoxication--defined as a blood alcohol concentration of 0.10 grams per deciliter or higher.[/FONT]
• [FONT=verdana,arial]While only 55 percent of adult vehicle occupants (ages 18 to 69) involved in fatal crashes were using restraints at the time of the crash, 70 percent of fatal- crash-involved older occupants were using restraints.[/FONT]
• [FONT=verdana,arial]"On the basis of estimated annual travel, the fatality rate for drivers 85 and over is nine times as high as the rate for drivers 25 through 69 years old." [/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,arial]Statistics show that in two-vehicle fatal crashes involving an older and a younger driver, it is 3.1 times as likely that the vehicle driven by the older person will be struck. In 27% of these two-vehicle fatal crashes the older driver was turning left. Drivers over 65, along with new teen-age drivers, have the highest accident rates per miles driven. Another NHTSA study found that on the basis of estimated annual travel, the fatality rate for drivers 85 and over is nine times as high as the rate for drivers 25 through 69 years old. [/FONT]​

 

[BoilerUP]

Some of us love our career and will do what it takes to keep it.

So...are you campaigning for Age 60 to be abolished because you "love your career", or because you don't want to be forced out of another 5 years at your top earning potential?

 

[Flopgut]

Why should we give up our seniority, vacation, our livelihood? quote]

Because as much was done for you.

 

[EWR_FO]

Leave a career at the top to start at the bottom of a frac?

Just out of curiosity, were you hired "at the top" or did you progress due to retirements? Thought so.

 

[oldxfr8dog]

[FONT=verdana,arial]In the next 20 years the number of elderly drivers (persons 70 & over) is predicted to triple in the United States. As age increases, older drivers generally become more conservative on the road. Many mature drivers modify their driving habits (for instance to avoid busy highways or night-time driving) to match their declining capabilities. However, statistics show that older drivers are more likely than younger ones to be involved in multi-vehicle crashes, particularly at intersections. [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,arial]Research on age-related driving concerns has shown that at around the age of 65 drivers face an increased risk of being involved in a vehicle crash. After the age of 75, the risk of driver fatality increases sharply, because older drivers are more vulnerable to both crash-related injury and death. Three behavioral factors in particular may contribute to these statistics: poor judgement in making left-hand turns; drifting within the traffic lane; and decreased ability to change behavior in response to an unexpected or rapidly changing situation.[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,arial]Concern about the increased number of older drivers and their potentially decreased driving abilities is growing, especially among younger drivers. Statistics, based on all people injured or killed in traffic crashes, indicate that older drivers are at a disproportionate risk for becoming involved in fatal crashes. A NHTSA study of 1995 FARS (Fatal Accident Reporting System) data reports that senior citizens accounted for:[/FONT]

• [FONT=verdana,arial]5% of all people injured in traffic crashes[/FONT]
• [FONT=verdana,arial]13% of all traffic fatalities[/FONT]
• [FONT=verdana,arial]13% of all vehicle occupant fatalities[/FONT]
• [FONT=verdana,arial]18% of all pedestrian fatalities[/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,arial]In a 1997 NHTSA study, older people made up 9 percent of the population but accounted for 14 percent of all traffic fatalities and 17 percent of all pedestrian fatalities. NHTSA's "Traffic Safety Facts 1997: Older Population" (DOT HS 808 769) reports that:[/FONT]

• [FONT=verdana,arial]In 1997, more than 24 million people in the United States were over 70 years of age.[/FONT]
• [FONT=verdana,arial]Representing 9 percent of the population in 1997, the 70-and-older age group grew 2.1 times faster from 1987 to 1997 than the total population.[/FONT]
• [FONT=verdana,arial]In 1986 older drivers were 7 percent of licensed drivers; in 1996 they were 19 percent of licensed drivers.[/FONT]
• [FONT=verdana,arial]Of traffic fatalities involving older drivers, 82 percent happened in the daytime, 71 percent occurred on weekdays, and 75 percent involved a second vehicle.[/FONT]
• [FONT=verdana,arial]When a crash involved an older driver and a younger driver, the older driver was 3 times as likely as the younger driver to be the one struck. Moreover, 28 percent of crash-involved older drivers were turning left when they were struck-- 7 times more often than younger drivers were struck while making left turns.[/FONT]
• [FONT=verdana,arial]Older drivers involved in fatal crashes and fatally injured older pedestrians claimed the lowest proportion of intoxication--defined as a blood alcohol concentration of 0.10 grams per deciliter or higher.[/FONT]
• [FONT=verdana,arial]While only 55 percent of adult vehicle occupants (ages 18 to 69) involved in fatal crashes were using restraints at the time of the crash, 70 percent of fatal- crash-involved older occupants were using restraints.[/FONT]
• [FONT=verdana,arial]"On the basis of estimated annual travel, the fatality rate for drivers 85 and over is nine times as high as the rate for drivers 25 through 69 years old." [/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,arial]Statistics show that in two-vehicle fatal crashes involving an older and a younger driver, it is 3.1 times as likely that the vehicle driven by the older person will be struck. In 27% of these two-vehicle fatal crashes the older driver was turning left. Drivers over 65, along with new teen-age drivers, have the highest accident rates per miles driven. Another NHTSA study found that on the basis of estimated annual travel, the fatality rate for drivers 85 and over is nine times as high as the rate for drivers 25 through 69 years old. [/FONT]​

The NTSB table wouldn't paste correctly, so I'll include a link: http://www.mass.gov/da/norfolk/driving.html
It shows the accident rate steadily DECREASES until age 69, then sharply spikes up. The "older drivers" you refer to are more than 85 years old.
Drivers 65-69 yers old are actually safer than those aged 55-64.
Check the table for yourself.

 

[B727Driver]

Those that have retired well before left with more that those who will retire today after the trips through BK and pension losses. Tough to argue that.

I 'love my career' and yes, it pays well with health insurance and other benefits (I think we earned them). Those who will come after I have retired will enjoy the same, I hope. It is up to us the make sure our profession remains just what I called it, a profession. We can work together to accomplish this or we all fail. Outsourcing and foreign ownership (dead for now) could kill everything we have and are currently working towards. This fight should not be amongst us, but against those who want to replace us. This is the bigger picture.

 

[EWR_FO]

That table isn't accident rates, it's deadly accidents. Big difference.

 

[C-150ETOPS]

Why should we give up our seniority, vacation, our livelihood? Leave a career at the top to start at the bottom of a frac? A charter company? Leave it all behind based on a policy that has no basis. What kind of crack are you smoking? Some of us love our career and will do what it takes to keep it. You will have your chance, patience schoolboy. By the way, have you typed up your letter of resignation/retirement yet? Be sure to date it correctly. I'd hate to see you fly past 60, you incompetent safety hazard.

Sounds like Morty Seinfeld campaigning against term limits for the "Del Boca Vista Phase III" Condo Association.


When is "naptime" for you. Before or after the "earlybird" dinner?

 

[BoilerUP]

That table isn't accident rates, it's deadly accidents. Big difference.

He must have overlooked this part of that snippet:

[FONT=verdana,arial]Research on age-related driving concerns has shown that at around the age of 65 drivers face an increased risk of being involved in a vehicle crash.

[/FONT]

 

[C-150ETOPS]

Those that have retired well before left with more that those who will retire today after the trips through BK and pension losses. Tough to argue that.

Yes I will argue with that.

Those that left with a big pension only did so after filling the shoes of many who left in the earlier years with almost nothing.

 

[B727Driver]

I started like everyone else, day one. Paid my dues and took my turn when it came up. I also progressed observing those who turned 60 that did not retire with $X,XXX,XXX in their portfolio. Circumstances encountered by the industry we all work in did not workout in their favor. Would have been nice to see them have the opportunity to earn a little more while they still could.

 

[likeitis]

[Why should we give up our seniority, vacation, our livelihood? quote]

Because as much was done for you.

Best statement I have heard yet. I have no problem giving my employer a resignation letter dated for my 60th birthday. If I do this do I have to work until 60? This generation just blows my mind. Every time the rules aren't working for them they have to change them. Not like anyone couldn't see this coming 20 years ago from these spoiled, egotistical, freelove moneywhore$.