FAA Age 60 debate

[leftseat10]

There was an interesting live webcast today at 1530 EDT of the senate transportation subcommittee's debate on changing the age 60 rule. ALPA/APA vs Southwest/JetBlue. There's a link to the video testimony below.
http://commerce.senate.gov/hearings/witnesslist.cfm?id=1581

 

[General Lee]

Both the APA and ALPA say that the age 60 rule hasn't resulted in any medical accidents, and that changing that rule could lead to one. I agree.




Allied Pilots Association Expresses Support for Age 60 Rule
Tuesday July 19, 12:18 pm ET Union President Testifies Before U.S. Senate Subcommittee on Aviation

FORT WORTH, Texas--(BUSINESS WIRE)--July 19, 2005--The Allied Pilots Association (APA), collective bargaining agent for the 13,000 pilots of American Airlines (NYSE:AMR - News), reiterated its support for maintaining mandatory retirement at age 60 for the nation's commercial pilots as Congress considers legislation that would raise the age.

"Throughout the entire 46-year history of the Federal Aviation Administration's Age 60 Rule, not one single airline accident has been attributed to the sudden or subtle effects of aging," said Captain Ralph Hunter, APA President. "By any measure, mandatory retirement at age 60 has proven successful."

Hunter testified today before the U.S. Senate Subcommittee on Aviation, which convened a hearing on the topic of pilot retirement age. Other witnesses included Captain Duane Woerth, President of the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA), which represents approximately 64,000 commercial pilots in the U.S. and Canada. ALPA also supports maintaining the Age 60 Rule.

"Why would we even want to consider taking a chance with public safety by experimenting with pilot retirement age? The risks of sudden or subtle incapacitation rise significantly beyond age 60," said Hunter.

While acknowledging that many Americans lead healthier lives than ever before into their sixties and beyond, Hunter pointed out that there is still no definitive way to determine which pilots would be safe to fly past age 60, despite tremendous advances in medical technology.

He also noted that many supporters of an increase in pilot retirement age are doing so for economic reasons.

"While I am certainly familiar with and sympathetic to the financial difficulties airline employees have experienced during the prolonged industry downturn, public safety must always come first.

"If we were to experiment with a higher retirement age, at some point we would find out how old is too old--and I don't think anyone wants to be on that particular flight," said Hunter.

Although some supporters of an increase in pilot retirement age cite the Age 60 Rule as discriminatory, the U.S. Court of Appeals ruled in 1997 that age is a "bona fide occupational qualification" for commercial pilots, acknowledging that the regulation is intended to help ensure public safety. The U.S. Supreme Court affirmed that ruling earlier this year. Other safety-sensitive occupations such as firefighters and air traffic controllers also have mandatory retirement ages.

Hunter noted that the FAA itself does not advocate changing the Age 60 Rule.

Founded in 1963, APA is headquartered in Fort Worth, Texas. There are currently 2,890 American Airlines pilots on furlough. The furloughs began shortly after the September 11, 2001 attacks. Also, several hundred American Airlines pilots are on full-time military leave of absence serving in the armed forces. The union's Web site address is www.alliedpilots.org American Airlines is the nation's largest passenger carrier.





Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[unwashed]

If they don't want to change the rule then let us receive the benefits as if we had retired at 67, such as Social Security. If they don't want to change the rule let the pilots who's pensions are with the PGB receive the benefits as if they had not retired "early" under the PGB rules. I believe the benefits difference is about $15K to $18K per year.

 

[Big Duke Six]

I agree! I don't see how this inconsistancy in the fegeral retirement rules has been allowed to go on for this long. If only there were a large pilots' union, representing thousands and thousands of pilots....


An actual union would have fixed this gap long ago through legislation.

 

[cactuspilot]

Age 60 rule needs to be changed. How old is that Renquist dude about 89? Talk about someone who otta quit!! He is too busy shopping for wheelchairs to even hear the case.

 

[dbrownie]

Age 60 rule needs to be changed. How old is that Renquist dude about 89? Talk about someone who otta quit!! He is too busy shopping for wheelchairs to even hear the case.

Cactuspilot:

What should the rule be changed to?
What was the retirement age when you started to fly?

I think we all know the answer to the second question.

Dave B
NWA

 

[Jim Smyth]

Cactuspilot:

What should the rule be changed to?
What was the retirement age when you started to fly?

I think we all know the answer to the second question.

Dave B
NWA

It should be changed to when we are eligible to receive our benefits! Not a day sooner.

Why was it made age 60 to begin with? No reasearch or studies done what so ever! Plus life expectancy has gone up 10 years since 1959. That should put it at around age 70 now.

 

["Luke"]

I think most people would agree (not openly) that the age 60 rule should stay in place until they have upgraded to Captain at a major.

 

[miles otoole]

Cactuspilot:

What was the retirement age when you started to fly?

I think we all know the answer to the second question.

Dave B
NWA

He probably started flying when women couldn't vote. Guess what? That's changed. I personally want the option, as long as I pass my physical, to keep my job. Heck, I am sure you could make a case that a 50 y.o. has better skills than a 59 y.o. Why then would we allow someone with dimished skills (relative to a 50 y.o.) in the cockpit?

How about moving the 60-64 Y.O.s to the right seat? Can't be more dangerous than a 1000 hour 22 y.o. RJ FO.

 

[zbwmy]

The FAA is making controllers retire at age 56. I don't know where they got that age. IRS rules state you cannot make IRA withdrawls until age 59 1/2 without penalty. HHMMMMM.

 

[N1kawotg]

The FAA is making controllers retire at age 56. I don't know where they got that age. IRS rules state you cannot make IRA withdrawls until age 59 1/2 without penalty. HHMMMMM


They actually had a shortage of controllers a few years age, so anyone could submit a waiver and extend til 61 without any questions.

 

[pilotyip]

There are 1000's and 1000's of flying flying commerically after age 60, Part 125, Part 135, Part 91, corp, and Frac's. There is data to show the age 60 has nonthing to do with performance.

 

[JPB]

Is that what she said?


A new rule would push my upgrade from 2009 to 2012 if applied today.
In this business, I 'd rather take the upgrade now and deal with the 300K in increased pay and compounded interests.

 

[FNG_that's me]

There are 1000's and 1000's of flying flying commerically after age 60, Part 125, Part 135, Part 91, corp, and Frac's. There is data to show the age 60 has nonthing to do with performance.

Then make a career of being a Part 125, Part 135, Part 91, corp, or Frac pilot. Don't take advantage of the rule while it suits you, then demand a change when it is to your benefit. (general spear, not necessarily at you PY, unless it fits.) It's like watching George run over the kids and old ladies when the fire alarm goes off.

 

[Cyclone]

age 60 is a bogus rule...it's age discrimination.

but don't we want age discrimination? i don't want some 85 year old clown flying my family around.

so what do they change the rule to?

if they base it on social security/benefits it's still a bogus rule and still age discrimination...it just makes it more acceptable to the olf darts because they figure by then they'll be set. but that is an asinine reason to change the rule. change it to make sure those pilots who were born in 1946 are comfortable in their retirement...it should be based on safety.

are guys over 60 safe to fly? some of them...probably most of them (oh and by the way there are probably some 50-59 year olds who aren't that fit or safe...oh well). so if this rule is about safety it shouldn't be based on age...it should be on the ability of the pilot to fly and to make decisions and to hear and see and react well enough to fly...uh oh...sounds like we need to give pilots arduous physical exams that really measure how fit they are. be careful what you ask for guys. you might be kicked out of the industry when you're 48 because you can't pass the astronaut physical that we have in place instead of the age 60 rule. there's no easy answer but be careful what you ask for.

most the guys who want the rule changed are captains who want to make more money...hopefully they won't change the rule just to satisfy their greed.

we'll see...congress moves slow and is afraid to change something they could get blamed for later. it ain't happening any time soon.

 

[SMMustang]

I think most people would agree (not openly) that the age 60 rule should stay in place until they have upgraded to Captain at a major.

Truly inciteful and funny!

 

["Luke"]

Unless you’re a high ranking officer in the military, mandatory retirement is at age 60. The FBI's and Leo’s mandatory retirement age is 57, but may be extended for a couple years. Maybe the scope of this mandatory retirement age is a little deeper than if an airline pilot is fit to fly. This age requirement (discrimination) may need battled on a couple different fronts.

 

[pilotyip]

But the FBI agent age rule, the ATC controller age rule applies to everyone in that position. The age 60 rules only applies to a small group of the entire pilot population.

 

[NoJoy]

Its not age discrimintation. We all knew what the retirement age was when we decided to fly 121. Now some pilots-the minority-are crying fowl. Trying to change this rule to suite the minority is unjustified to the majority. When this rule was put to a vote a few months ago, the majority of the piltos were opposed to the change.

 

[GCAP]

The General's comment is the stupidest he's made on this forum.
It is likely that the age 60 rule has not caused any pregnancies,
either, but tell me how it has helped to avoid any accidents.
Most accidents in commercial aviation happen to the tired or
inexperienced or those that graduated last in their class. Safety has never been enhanced in any measure by this stupid rule.

 

[skeezer]

Hey we (ALPA members) took a vote and all you dorks who want to work till you die lost. Suck it up and start saving for retirement.

Crying about it won't do a thing but give you high blood pressure from being stressed-out, and in that case you wouldn't make it to 60 anyway so give it up.

Peace out!

Skeezer

 

[B6Driver]

Like it or not, the age 60 rule will change. When is the real question and not if.
I never voted on it and I paid ALPO dues for 13.5 years before that POS operation sold me and my group down the river.
There are a lot of furloughed pilots on the street still so maybe this may not be the time but it will change and change it will.
When you have been a member of ALPO long enough, you'll agree that they only look out for themselves and not the members that pay the bills. I hate ALPA, is that clear enough.
I feel so much better now. Breath in, breath out. Breath in, breath out.

 

[taloft]

congress ... is afraid to change something they could get blamed for later. it ain't happening any time soon.

Now we have the real reason it won't be changing.

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

The Age 60 Rule has other ramifications too. I just read an article in AOPA that states for those who wish to fly their own airplanes beyond that age, the insurance companies are tacking on a 60+ premium that goes up exponentionallly--because, they say, that is the age pilots retire from professional flying and are deemed as more risky because that's what the FAA determined...

 

[Fly-n-hi]

To say that the age 60 rule shouldn't be extended due to the likelyhood of pilot incapacitation or sudden illness is rediculous.

My grandfather kept up his first class medical until he was 75 and the only reason he didn't keep it up after that is because he was hit by a car. Many of his 70+ year old friends are still flying in some capacity.

The real reason that most pilots here want the age 60 rule to stay in place is because they think that they can move up the seniority ladder or get recalled from furlough faster. It's just a way to get rid of the senior pilots. The age 60 rule, when conceived, had nothing to do with health considerations.

I also hear some argue that they do not want to have to work past age 60. Huh??? No one is making you work past age 50, or 40, or 30. If you don't want to work past age 60 then don't...no one will force you to. I would like to be able to decide for myself if I want to work beyond 60.

And if you are worried that extending the age to 65 will force you to work another 5 years in order to receive you full pension...I wouldn't count on a pension at all. You're better off investing your money on your own in a 401k, a roth IRA, or even better...both. This way you can retire whenever you feel you have enough saved up plus you own your investment. Besides, pensions are about to become a thing of the past.

Those last 5 years at your company will be the most productive years most likely so what's wrong with allowing me to have 5 more?

It's simple...if you don't want to work past age 60 then don't. If you don't trust my health at age 63 then don't fly on my flight. You are free to get off although I'm willing to bet you wouldn't.

 

[ivauir]

The real reason that most pilots here want the age 60 rule to stay in place is because they think that they can move up the seniority ladder or get recalled from furlough faster. It's just a way to get rid of the senior pilots. The age 60 rule, when conceived, had nothing to do with health considerations.

But those senior pilots got to move up faster because the rule existed. Now many of them are crying about how unfair it is. Yes it is unfair, it was when they were in their 30s and 40s too

Those last 5 years at your company will be the most productive years most likely so what's wrong with allowing me to have 5 more?

Because then my last 5 years will start later, so if I chose to quit at 60 I'll miss out on my 5 most productive years. So the guys that are senior when the rule changes get 10 years while everyone else gets 5 (your numbers).

It's simple...if you don't want to work past age 60 then don't. If you don't trust my health at age 63 then don't fly on my flight. You are free to get off although I'm willing to bet you wouldn't.

It IS simple, the age 60 rule was in place when you were junior, now you are senior and you want to stay in my seat as long as you can. You accuse junior folks of being greedy, but clearly you have a lot to gain if the rule goes away.

Please understand that I think the age 60 rule is bogus, I support its repeal. But if it goes away my upgrade WILL be delayed.
It needs to be gradually phased out. I'd start with those reaching the age of ATP first (I think it is 23). That way there is no one junior to be hurt. No one is even proposing anyting like this because there is a whole generation hoping for and even expecting a windfall. They'll get more time at the top of the senority pile than anyone else before or after. On top of that they expect the junior folks to happily go along with their scheme.

 

[Moonshiner]

I say lower it to 55 (but only until I turn 54!).

 

[filejw]

Age 60 was originally pushed for by the CEO of American in 1959 so he didn't have to pay the most senior pilots on the new jets.He used his pull with the FAA to save himself money.Some things never change.This alone makes me hope for a rule change.

 

[Fly-n-hi]

ivauir,


Where do I start???

"It IS simple, the age 60 rule was in place when you were junior, now you are senior and you want to stay in my seat as long as you can. You accuse junior folks of being greedy, but clearly you have a lot to gain if the rule goes away."

Whoa!! I'm 28 and in the bottom 15% of my seniority list. I have no problem letting the guys who are 60 stay five more years.

"But those senior pilots got to move up faster because the rule existed. Now many of them are crying about how unfair it is. Yes it is unfair, it was when they were in their 30s and 40s too"

I don't care what their attitudes were back then. I'm concerned with today. What is the point of this argument?

"Because then my last 5 years will start later, so if I chose to quit at 60 I'll miss out on my 5 most productive years. So the guys that are senior when the rule changes get 10 years while everyone else gets 5 (your numbers)."

Sorry. Without trying to sound disrespectful...This argument makes absolutely no sense. Why do you care how much other pilots are getting? I am, as you sould be, concerned with my own outlook. I'm supposed to oppose extending the age 60 rule because someone else might make a little more money than me??? In reality they will not make more than me because I will get an additional 5 years as well.

"...now you are senior and you want to stay in my seat as long as you can."

Again, without trying to sound direspectful, this sentence is the foundation of your argument. Explain to me please what you mean by "my" seat??? This sentence suggests envy.

 

[3M1900FO]

Look I Have Flown With Several 59 Year Olds. Now I Understand Why Cathay Retires At 55.