• NC Software is having a Black Friday Sale Event thru December 4th on Logbook Pro, APDL - Airline Pilot Logbook, Cirrus Elite Binders, and more. Use coupon code BF2020 at checkout to redeem 15% off your purchase. Click here to shop now.
  • NC Software is proud to announce the release of APDL - Airline Pilot Logbook version 10.0. Click here to view APDL on the Apple App store and install now.

FAA Age 60 debate

General Lee

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 24, 2002
Posts
20,442
Total Time
A lot
Both the APA and ALPA say that the age 60 rule hasn't resulted in any medical accidents, and that changing that rule could lead to one. I agree.




Allied Pilots Association Expresses Support for Age 60 Rule
Tuesday July 19, 12:18 pm ET Union President Testifies Before U.S. Senate Subcommittee on Aviation

FORT WORTH, Texas--(BUSINESS WIRE)--July 19, 2005--The Allied Pilots Association (APA), collective bargaining agent for the 13,000 pilots of American Airlines (NYSE:AMR - News), reiterated its support for maintaining mandatory retirement at age 60 for the nation's commercial pilots as Congress considers legislation that would raise the age.

"Throughout the entire 46-year history of the Federal Aviation Administration's Age 60 Rule, not one single airline accident has been attributed to the sudden or subtle effects of aging," said Captain Ralph Hunter, APA President. "By any measure, mandatory retirement at age 60 has proven successful."

Hunter testified today before the U.S. Senate Subcommittee on Aviation, which convened a hearing on the topic of pilot retirement age. Other witnesses included Captain Duane Woerth, President of the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA), which represents approximately 64,000 commercial pilots in the U.S. and Canada. ALPA also supports maintaining the Age 60 Rule.

"Why would we even want to consider taking a chance with public safety by experimenting with pilot retirement age? The risks of sudden or subtle incapacitation rise significantly beyond age 60," said Hunter.

While acknowledging that many Americans lead healthier lives than ever before into their sixties and beyond, Hunter pointed out that there is still no definitive way to determine which pilots would be safe to fly past age 60, despite tremendous advances in medical technology.

He also noted that many supporters of an increase in pilot retirement age are doing so for economic reasons.

"While I am certainly familiar with and sympathetic to the financial difficulties airline employees have experienced during the prolonged industry downturn, public safety must always come first.

"If we were to experiment with a higher retirement age, at some point we would find out how old is too old--and I don't think anyone wants to be on that particular flight," said Hunter.

Although some supporters of an increase in pilot retirement age cite the Age 60 Rule as discriminatory, the U.S. Court of Appeals ruled in 1997 that age is a "bona fide occupational qualification" for commercial pilots, acknowledging that the regulation is intended to help ensure public safety. The U.S. Supreme Court affirmed that ruling earlier this year. Other safety-sensitive occupations such as firefighters and air traffic controllers also have mandatory retirement ages.

Hunter noted that the FAA itself does not advocate changing the Age 60 Rule.

Founded in 1963, APA is headquartered in Fort Worth, Texas. There are currently 2,890 American Airlines pilots on furlough. The furloughs began shortly after the September 11, 2001 attacks. Also, several hundred American Airlines pilots are on full-time military leave of absence serving in the armed forces. The union's Web site address is www.alliedpilots.org American Airlines is the nation's largest passenger carrier.





Bye Bye--General Lee
 
Last edited:

unwashed

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 28, 2002
Posts
324
Total Time
500+
If they don't want to change the rule then let us receive the benefits as if we had retired at 67, such as Social Security. If they don't want to change the rule let the pilots who's pensions are with the PGB receive the benefits as if they had not retired "early" under the PGB rules. I believe the benefits difference is about $15K to $18K per year.
 

Big Duke Six

Not-too-Junior
Joined
Feb 12, 2003
Posts
544
Total Time
7000+
I agree! I don't see how this inconsistancy in the fegeral retirement rules has been allowed to go on for this long. If only there were a large pilots' union, representing thousands and thousands of pilots....


An actual union would have fixed this gap long ago through legislation.
 

cactuspilot

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 7, 2002
Posts
83
Total Time
17K+
Age 60 rule needs to be changed. How old is that Renquist dude about 89? Talk about someone who otta quit!! He is too busy shopping for wheelchairs to even hear the case.
 

dbrownie

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 13, 2004
Posts
261
Total Time
17,000
cactuspilot said:
Age 60 rule needs to be changed. How old is that Renquist dude about 89? Talk about someone who otta quit!! He is too busy shopping for wheelchairs to even hear the case.


Cactuspilot:

What should the rule be changed to?
What was the retirement age when you started to fly?

I think we all know the answer to the second question.

Dave B
NWA
 

Jim Smyth

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 13, 2004
Posts
603
Total Time
20K
dbrownie said:
Cactuspilot:

What should the rule be changed to?
What was the retirement age when you started to fly?

I think we all know the answer to the second question.

Dave B
NWA

It should be changed to when we are eligible to receive our benefits! Not a day sooner.

Why was it made age 60 to begin with? No reasearch or studies done what so ever! Plus life expectancy has gone up 10 years since 1959. That should put it at around age 70 now.
 

"Luke"

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 12, 2005
Posts
63
Total Time
7000+
I think most people would agree (not openly) that the age 60 rule should stay in place until they have upgraded to Captain at a major.
 

miles otoole

Well-known member
Joined
May 7, 2004
Posts
948
Total Time
10k+
dbrownie said:
Cactuspilot:

What was the retirement age when you started to fly?

I think we all know the answer to the second question.

Dave B
NWA

He probably started flying when women couldn't vote. Guess what? That's changed. I personally want the option, as long as I pass my physical, to keep my job. Heck, I am sure you could make a case that a 50 y.o. has better skills than a 59 y.o. Why then would we allow someone with dimished skills (relative to a 50 y.o.) in the cockpit?

How about moving the 60-64 Y.O.s to the right seat? Can't be more dangerous than a 1000 hour 22 y.o. RJ FO.
 

zbwmy

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 21, 2005
Posts
65
Total Time
125
The FAA is making controllers retire at age 56. I don't know where they got that age. IRS rules state you cannot make IRA withdrawls until age 59 1/2 without penalty. HHMMMMM.
 

N1kawotg

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 24, 2003
Posts
123
Total Time
A few
The FAA is making controllers retire at age 56. I don't know where they got that age. IRS rules state you cannot make IRA withdrawls until age 59 1/2 without penalty. HHMMMMM


They actually had a shortage of controllers a few years age, so anyone could submit a waiver and extend til 61 without any questions.
 

pilotyip

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
13,629
Total Time
14000
There are 1000's and 1000's of flying flying commerically after age 60, Part 125, Part 135, Part 91, corp, and Frac's. There is data to show the age 60 has nonthing to do with performance.
 

JPB

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 19, 2001
Posts
83
Total Time
6500
Is that what she said?


A new rule would push my upgrade from 2009 to 2012 if applied today.
In this business, I 'd rather take the upgrade now and deal with the 300K in increased pay and compounded interests.
 
Last edited:

FNG_that's me

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 28, 2004
Posts
194
Total Time
>1500
pilotyip said:
There are 1000's and 1000's of flying flying commerically after age 60, Part 125, Part 135, Part 91, corp, and Frac's. There is data to show the age 60 has nonthing to do with performance.

Then make a career of being a Part 125, Part 135, Part 91, corp, or Frac pilot. Don't take advantage of the rule while it suits you, then demand a change when it is to your benefit. (general spear, not necessarily at you PY, unless it fits.) It's like watching George run over the kids and old ladies when the fire alarm goes off.
 

Cyclone

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 21, 2003
Posts
128
Total Time
5000+
age 60 is a bogus rule...it's age discrimination.

but don't we want age discrimination? i don't want some 85 year old clown flying my family around.

so what do they change the rule to?

if they base it on social security/benefits it's still a bogus rule and still age discrimination...it just makes it more acceptable to the olf darts because they figure by then they'll be set. but that is an asinine reason to change the rule. change it to make sure those pilots who were born in 1946 are comfortable in their retirement...it should be based on safety.

are guys over 60 safe to fly? some of them...probably most of them (oh and by the way there are probably some 50-59 year olds who aren't that fit or safe...oh well). so if this rule is about safety it shouldn't be based on age...it should be on the ability of the pilot to fly and to make decisions and to hear and see and react well enough to fly...uh oh...sounds like we need to give pilots arduous physical exams that really measure how fit they are. be careful what you ask for guys. you might be kicked out of the industry when you're 48 because you can't pass the astronaut physical that we have in place instead of the age 60 rule. there's no easy answer but be careful what you ask for.

most the guys who want the rule changed are captains who want to make more money...hopefully they won't change the rule just to satisfy their greed.

we'll see...congress moves slow and is afraid to change something they could get blamed for later. it ain't happening any time soon.
 

SMMustang

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 20, 2003
Posts
93
Total Time
3000
Luke said:
I think most people would agree (not openly) that the age 60 rule should stay in place until they have upgraded to Captain at a major.

Truly inciteful and funny!
 

"Luke"

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 12, 2005
Posts
63
Total Time
7000+
Unless you’re a high ranking officer in the military, mandatory retirement is at age 60. The FBI's and Leo’s mandatory retirement age is 57, but may be extended for a couple years. Maybe the scope of this mandatory retirement age is a little deeper than if an airline pilot is fit to fly. This age requirement (discrimination) may need battled on a couple different fronts.
 

pilotyip

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
13,629
Total Time
14000
But the FBI agent age rule, the ATC controller age rule applies to everyone in that position. The age 60 rules only applies to a small group of the entire pilot population.
 

NoJoy

LAMA/400
Joined
Jan 20, 2005
Posts
529
Total Time
10,000
Its not age discrimintation. We all knew what the retirement age was when we decided to fly 121. Now some pilots-the minority-are crying fowl. Trying to change this rule to suite the minority is unjustified to the majority. When this rule was put to a vote a few months ago, the majority of the piltos were opposed to the change.
 

GCAP

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 9, 2003
Posts
103
Total Time
28000+
The General's comment is the stupidest he's made on this forum.
It is likely that the age 60 rule has not caused any pregnancies,
either, but tell me how it has helped to avoid any accidents.
Most accidents in commercial aviation happen to the tired or
inexperienced or those that graduated last in their class. Safety has never been enhanced in any measure by this stupid rule.
 
Top