EU-US open skies argeement!

[radiofly er]

Assuming incorrectly again.

You know its funny reading most of your thoughts on "third world airlines" , specially pay for the pilots. The fact is that none of you really now. Mexicana and Aeromexico are problaly better paid than most U.S airlines specially those low fare ones and above America West and Nortwest for sure. Add to that the lower cost of living and these beaners are pretty much equal to any U.S. mainline pilot. Also add to this benefits and contract conpensations and..........well, nevermind, find out for yall selfs before assuming incorrectly.

 

[Dizel8]

"Mexicana and Aeromexico are problaly better paid than most U.S airlines specially those low fare ones and above America West and Nortwest for sure."

NWA currently have one of the highest payscales in the US, I believe right behind Delta, AWA just signed a new contract, that affords them a decent payraise.

If you have the numbers, I would very much like to see them! Perhaps they are similar, but from the info I have seen from like Venezuela, at least there the pay for flightdeck crew isa lot less. Perhaps 40K gives you a nice lifestyle in country, that I cannot argue, but I am sure the General is not about to move to Venezuela.

As of right now, the threat is not from south of the border, it is from across the pond. A polish pilot makes about 60 a year, a czech about 25K a year, perhaps that affords them a nice living, but it would not get much here. Now, that is not flying a CRJ, those are numbers for A-320, 737, 767 , in other words mainline a/c. I find it hard to believe, that pilots South of the Border enjoys payscales higher than say BMI or Virgin Atlantic, but I would love to be proved wrong.

Look at the PDF file and take a look at what the pay is overseas, certain National carriers are paid very well, but quite a few carriers are not!

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Re: Assuming incorrectly again.

You know its funny reading most of your thoughts on "third world airlines" , specially pay for the pilots. The fact is that none of you really now. Mexicana and Aeromexico are problaly better paid than most U.S airlines specially those low fare ones and above America West and Nortwest for sure. Add to that the lower cost of living and these beaners are pretty much equal to any U.S. mainline pilot. Also add to this benefits and contract conpensations and..........well, nevermind, find out for yall selfs before assuming incorrectly.

Pushing this useless argument without facts only tells me how you want to export our jobs overseas. I find it telling that you think its funny that foreign carriers can roll in and put Americans out of work.

Very nice meeting you, go live in another country.

 

[radiofly er]

o.k.

First of all, if American for example tries to get Mexicana to fly cheap routes for them they are mistaken. Right now we are the highest payed. Example ( 10 yr captain makes 171.00/hr with 78 hours pay guaranteed ). Not even a first year F. O. makes 40k a year, they take in about 48k first year. All these open skies arguments are already heating up and i can asure you with a strong union our wages dont seem to be going anywhere but up, even if we do open the skies. Aeromexico will not go there either, they are pretty much equal in pay. I know of an md-80 f.o. that took in 110k in his 3rd year. So yeah with everythig much cheaper( living, food etc..) it is pretty equal to mainline U.S. pay. One more thing add to these pay scales contract benefits and compensation which average year to year, but ussually about 12k more to your pay, yearly. Trust me this is not cheap labor, at least not in this sector. So now, limit your examples with words like cheap to other airlines, before you know all the facts.........just like mentioned.

 

[Dizel8]

Well, I think that is great news and that means that we have nothing to fear from Mexico.

BTW, juts of of curiosity, do you have a link to those contracts, not a great spanish speaker, but can probably muddle through them.

This is why I wanted a debate in first place, to gather info, some of which you have and you have brought insight, for which I am very grateful.

The unions from Skyteam is keeping tabs on who flies what, so obviously, they are all leery of what could happen.

 

[radiofly er]

No links but if you get in contat with me I can send you what would be the eqivelent of the w-2 form here. Last year 92K at mexicana as an F.O. A-320. Who do you fly for? Well, nice talking to you.

We are not in SkyTeam as a matter of fact we just ended StarAllience, I think due to UAL financial situacion. Just sighned on with AA.

 

[Dizel8]

Radioflyer,

PM sent

The change in alliance is interesting, seems like it was Star. What is really interesting, if I am correct, is that both AeroMexico and Mexicana has the same owner, but are members of different alliances. Is there talk of joining the two companies together?

 

[EIflyer]

Quote
The problem is that many airlines are Gov owned and subsidized. These carrier's sign up to be a part of an Alliance. The next thing you have is your jobs are getting shipped over seas because countries XYZ pilots work cheaper.

It's not just the EU

For info, government subsidies of airlines are now forbidden in the EU. Sabena was the first casualty of this policy.

 

[we there yet?]

This is a good topic. There are so many factors which can influence the way our flying jobs exist in the future. The U.S. gov’t has been trying to achieve open skies agreements since the Chicago Convention of 1944. I think the government’s main concern is that of public convenience and necessity, and not pilot wages and/or future job security. The “International Air Transportation Competition Act of 1979” was created to promote the competition of international air carriers and increase the opportunities for US air carriers in other markets. The idea is that maximizing competition will make an air carrier operate at its most efficient level. Kind of goes back to the whole deregulation thing. Companies are more efficient now than in the days of regulated rates and routes. I think US carriers have a lot of restrictions placed upon them in foreign markets. If we are freed up we may be able to expand and create more jobs to serve these markets. A competitive international industry can stimulate the growth for profitable operations. No other country has the air carrier might that the US possesses. Surprisingly there is still a relatively large untapped market for leisure travelers that don’t have the financial ability to travel. If lower fares can be achieved through more competition, maybe we can get their business. It seems the low cost carriers are the ones cleaning up these days. They are extremely efficient operators. Maybe we should use their model on an international level and take these guys to the cleaners.

If we enter into a free skies agreement I don’t think Czech pilots will be stealing our jobs because to get a green card is not easy. “Pilot” is not one of the jobs on the list that enable an immigrant to obtain a green card. If the company were to sponsor that person it would have to prove that it was unable to obtain the services of an American pilot before the DOJ issues any work permits. With so many of us on the street that guy wouldn’t stand a chance. And the DOJ would laugh at any company that tried.
We will still need lots of US pilots to fly these planes just because the US market is so huge. Even if those other countries start companies here they would still have to hire US pilots for a US based company.

I will be keeping an eye on this issue. It seems it will affect all of us so let's make sure we stay informed and make the right choice. But if we can do it right and come out on top, I say let's make some money!

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Re: o.k.

First of all, if American for example tries to get Mexicana to fly cheap routes for them they are mistaken. Right now we are the highest payed. Example ( 10 yr captain makes 171.00/hr with 78 hours pay guaranteed ). Not even a first year F. O. makes 40k a year, they take in about 48k first year. All these open skies arguments are already heating up and i can asure you with a strong union our wages dont seem to be going anywhere but up, even if we do open the skies.

I never said you were cheaper, maybe it sounded like it was implied. My beef is that open skies will turn it into a free for all. Deals will be struck and routes will ebb and flow with each new deal.

I'm thinking labor will be at huge risk, on both sides. The number of pilots at a carrier will fluctuate with the demand or lack of it. Bad for labor all around. If the costs of American carriers are lower, YOUR job will be at risk.

I don't want you to lose your job either. I pray we don't get open skies.