EU-US open skies argeement!

[Dizel8]

EU-US open skies argeement! Danger Ahead

Ladies and Gentlemen,

What faces us is a long term threat from the EU. We continue to have talks concernig open skies, something the EU proposes, but something we should all be adamantly against. If you believe it is bad now, wait until this goes through.

Not going to happen you say, well, just remember, that Ted Stevens from Alaska, managed to get cabotage allowed at ANC.
Not a good precedence.

I have added a link. It will show, that currently we enjoy on average 15 percent higher wages than our EU counterparts, but more importantly, it shows that we have a 1000% higher wage than the pilots in the Czech Replubic. Why is that important, well because the Czech is one of the countries about to join the EU, which would give them access to any open skies agreement signed. Near term, they do not have enough pilots to make an impact, but how about long term. I am not willing to place that bet. Are you?

Please let your elected representatives know, that you feel the open skies agreement is wrong and must not be allowed to happen.

Please Help!

D8

http://europa.eu.int/comm/transport/air/international/doc/brattle_aviation_liberalisation_report.pdf

 

[General Lee]

It sounds like a credible threat, but what about every time we have an "Orange Alert" or whatever near any holiday? There will always be more scrutiny during those times, and then every news station will have a story about "Can we trust those Czech pilots???" I just don't see it coming in a large scale. But, it might---and I can't wait until Delta flies EMB-190s from London to Frankfurt----for $58 dollars an hour too!! I love that German beer!!

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

In this month's ATW mag there are two articles relating to this subject. One indicates there are some snags right now between US and Europe. In addition, some of the current "leaders" will be stepping down because their time is up. My take (and I hope I'm wrong) is that it will happen just a question of time before we're one big happy world. The other article is an interview with the Dept. of Transportation Undersecretary for Policy (nice guberment title). He is more careful with his words but he seems to be willing to play the game as long as "it is in the broadest interests of US aviation". Sounds OK, but wonder what his definition broadest of interest is?
Don't like where any of this is going.

 

[Dizel8]

General,

Normally I too would be pretty laid back about the whole thing, but while it may not happen tomorrow or the next day, it probably will eventually. I just hope you are not around, when CSA or AeroMexico starts flying domestic routes for Delta. You know the beancounters would love it.

Security issues, well, CSA is already flying in the US, why not let them drop/pickup in JFK and continue to CVG, MCO or ATL. I mean, what could be the harm in that? Think scope will protect you, think it cannot happen? I think it can and I think it can be used as a great deterrent to those "uppity" DAL pilots.

SDF,

I must admit, from what I have seen, I can see no silver lining in this particular cloud. Obvisously, the EU carriers would love it, but I feel to see how it would help US aviation. Of course, the Senators will be clamoring all over themselves, trying to get the business to their state, but I doubt they could give much thought to you.

To all readers of this,

While you may or may not agree, please, at least take the time to think about pros and cons, read the proposals as they come out in the news.Stay informed and decide if you feel it is something you can live with.

Thanks,

D8

 

[G4G5]

Folks this is a huge topic.

The problem is that many airlines are Gov owned and subsidized. These carrier's sign up to be a part of an Alliance. The next thing you have is your jobs are getting shipped over seas because countries XYZ pilots work cheaper.

It's not just the EU. I have seen it in action with countries like Peru and AA.

It's the wave of the future.

One of the legacy carriers would sooner let a Gov like Austria or Spain purchase the aircraft. No capital out lay on their part. Then gurantee airline XYZ a certian number of seats sold. If you get a chance to look at BA pilots pay rates or what ANA work rules are like. You would be shocked.

 

[Pez D. Spencer]

From: Dow Jones Business News:
British Air Asks EU To Get Tough With US On 'Open Skies'

Thursday February 12, 1:26 pm ET

[snipped...]
Europe "should keep its sights high and keep pressing its case," Eddington said.

European and American officials will meet for the third time in Washington next week to try to hammer out a deal over access to each other's routes and airlines. Each side would like to be allowed to buy each other's airlines and have access to each other's routes. British Airways, for example, would like permission to fly planes between Pittsburgh and Dallas.

But Washington is resisting. It is willing only to increase foreign ownership of U.S. airlines to 49% from 25%, and to keep restrictions on European airlines flying between U.S. cities.

"The U.S. proposal is essentially unbalanced," Eddington charged. "It would provide unlimited 5th freedom rights within the E.U. for all American passenger and cargo airlines, while providing no access at all to the U.S. domestic market for Europe's airlines," he said, adding, "let's not pretend that lifting the current limit from 25% to 49% (of foreign ownership) has any value."

Eddington has a wierd sense of comparison - he is griping that the US will have unlimited 5th freedoms, and he is looking for unlimited 8th freedoms in the US???

Dizel8 and others,
Glad to see someone else at least taking this stuff seriously.

Publishers,
You out there? Any comments on this from your past experience?

 

[Dennis Miller]

We can't lose the upper hand on this one folks. We currently enjoy a plentiful market, they currently enjoy a plentiful marxist.

Now, I don't want to get off on a rant here, but the Third World has been mired in corruption and debt for so long, you'd think it was a major US corporation.

The problems of the Third World are the results of centuries of ethnic, geopolitical, and socio-economic power struggles. Sorry to be so simplistic about the issue, but I'm only a talk-show host, not an Irish rock star.

Disparity among nations has been around forever, but only now is there a push to do something about it. When the top nations get together at the G-8 summit, they discuss the Third World like a family trying to figure out what to do with Grandpa.

For me, the Third World is any country where the soccer game is called on account of locusts, where even the people working in the unemployment office are on welfare. I'm talking about the poorest of the poor. Countries where dust is a condiment.

Countries where pimps take the bus. For many developing countries progress is hobbled by decades of internal strife. Colombia's leaders have been battling leftist guerrillas for thirty years. Somalia has suffered factional strife for so long, you can actually buy four completely different civil war chess sets.

America is, in part, to blame, for the Third World's financial mismanagement because, for a long time, we would send them billions of dollars with fewer strings attached than Pinocchio after electrolysis. How did we expect them to repay it? We don't want buy their Elvis mosaics made out of lentils, so they have to borrow even more money to stay afloat. It's a classic catch-22 billion.

Lest we tar ourselves with the brush of despotism, it is an absolute, unrelenting, irresistable moral imperitive that we cancel these nation's debts, unless, of course, it somehow turns out that I'm the one they owe.

The biggest problem facing citizens of the third world is one quite literally of their own making, and that is over-population. Hey folks one way to conserve precious energy is to NOT F*CK EVERY 12 SECONDS. I have to admit I get a little angry when I read about the starving family consisting of a mother, father and TWENTY-THREE CHILDREN. Fer chrissakes lady, it's a vagina, not a clown car.

With the populations of these places climbing exponentially every year, you have to wonder, where do they get the energy to f*ck? I mean, they're starving and yet they still have enough stamina for sex. Jesus, I forget to eat my between-brunch and-lunch high protein Strawberry Yogurt Powerbar, and eight hours later, I can't get the mini-Dune-Worm to perk up if I attach live jumper cables to my balls.

The state of Third World education is abysmally low. Strapped for resources, the typical classroom is massively overcrowded, lacking in even the most basic supplies and textbooks, and led by teachers who can barely make a living on what they earn. In other words, just like our public schools but not as heavily armed.

I will admit that these people do amazing things with what few resources they have. Take dung for instance. It's like the duct tape of the third world. They not only use it to fertilize, but burn it for heat, turn it into thatched cottages and even nifty houseware items. You have nations in Africa where "track lighting" means adding more wicks to the camel turd. I had a friend who came back from the Serengeti with a 16 piece punch bowl set made completely out of wildebeast sh!t. These are the Martha Stewarts of critter scat.

You know, if we are going to solve the problems of these countries, we must remember history. Originally, the "Third World" was called that as a term of contrast to the first world - the industrialized capitalist nations - and the second world - the communist bloc. Now that there isn't a communist bloc, I propose that we start calling the Third World "the Second World." Just like that, no more Third World poverty, no more Third World violence, no more Third World debt. No, please, no need to thank me. I just want to help mankind.

Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

 

[Pez D. Spencer]

Dennis,
Great post -- a little off topic, but a hilarious rant!

 

[NoName]

if this comes to be, it would be a perfect time for system wide strike.

 

[JohnDoe]

It boggles my mind to see people make the claim that "security concerns" will stop this from happening. Folks, the security "breach" has ALREADY happened via cargo cabotage in ANC.

"Threat level Orange" you say rolleyes: ), well, we let foreign airlines continue to fly 747's into our biggest cities during those don't we?? Why would domestic cabotage be stopped?

Joe flying public won't give a rat's behind about who is flying their airplane. Most would have absolutely no clue, especially with all the codesharing. After all, they bought a ticket on XYZ's (insert your favorite domestic airline) website. As long as they can fly from coast to coast for $179 round-trip, they will not care.

This is not, and will never be, about security. If it was, cargo cabotage would not have passed, and we would not be in these talks with the EU. It is about $$$, pure and simple.

I (and many others) see cabotage as one of the single biggest threats to our profession. You are seeing the birth of the outsourcing of our jobs. Look around at what is happening to jobs in countless other professions. Is it going to happen wide-scale a year from now, or even 5 years from now? Probably not. But if this continues, it will over the course of our careers.

End of rant.....( and believe me, I would like nothing better than to be wrong on this issue).

 

[Newjetjockey]

Is that really Dennis Miller? I always thought it was someone just using his name. While reading this last post I was thinking it really does sound like Dennis Miller. Maybe someone is taking Dennis Miller quotes off another web site?

 

[Dizel8]

It is a cut and paste from one of his shows!

 

[General Lee]

Wait one second---British Airways can fly from Pittsburg to DFW---as long as they don't pick up any passengers(after coming in from London with a full boat). As far as I know---American Airlines can't go on to Manchester after landing in LHR and pick up new passengers. That would all have to change and the people over in Europe don't want to see Southwest over there either....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Draginass]

The CEOs already are trying to push the "world" mindset on the American public. To them, they'd love to have no borders. Just think of it. United, Delta, and American being able to hire pilots anywhere they wanted and fly anywhere they wanted. Lots of eastern european and western european pilots wouldn't hesitate to fly big airplanes over here for $40k a year and a green card. Regional compensation looks like a bonanza to South American pilots.

The CEOs want to migrate your jobs to the lowest denominator. I saw a piece on Lou Dobbs CNN last night where the Enterprise Institute Chief (mouthpiece for the corp CEOs) was lamely trying to tell everyone why shipping American jobs overseas was good for America. It was so ludicrous it was funny. Bagdad Bob couldn't have done any better.

 

[Dizel8]

Now you are getting the drift General!

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

PLEASE use your vote to protect our jobs from being "shipped overseas"

If your not sure what will support your job and way of life, do the research. Don't listen to paid political ads and news bites.

Look at voting records.

 

[canyonblue]

That would all have to change and the people over in Europe don't want to see Southwest over there either....

Bye Bye--General Lee

No way they just love Delta

 

[General Lee]

Canyonblue,

You were reading my mind!!! No, I think the Ryanairs and Easyjets of Europe wouldn't like to see you guys over there--especially since they copied you in every way. I know that Virgin wants to give it a try---and many will be watching that to see if it works--but as of right now the Virgin America pilots will be Americans----which is the way it should be....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Dizel8]

Guys,

If this goes through, there is no need to worry about DL MEC rumours or a certain AA pilots religous beliefs.

I would love to see a healthy debate of this issue and barring that, I am simply trying to increase the view count, so I know many people have seen it and are not worried about their future.

"but as of right now the Virgin America pilots will be Americans----which is the way it should be...."

General,

You are correct, but foreign airlines are now flying freight through ANC onward, cabotage, since they get to offload/onload in ANC.
This could very well happen on the pax side, AeroMexico doing it in ATL, not a good thing. It would give you no leverage whatsoever, sometime in the future when you ask for a raise or change in QOL issues. If you think Comair is a threat now, wait until it is CSA or AeroMexico.

Fred Smith at FEdEx is no dummy and plays hard ball. Lats time the FedEx boys wanted a payraise, he woved to shut them down, by lining up contract carriers to haul the freight. Well, I am sure he is seeing an opportunity to use cheap carriers and using them out of ANC. But why stop there, perhaps he can persuade Washington, that getting the exemption in MEM would be great.

So I will Bump!

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Oh yeah, I agree!!

I am astounded that come election time people are swayed by emotions and strange promises that can't be fulfilled. Everyone should be thinking about which candidate is most likely to stop the flow of jobs overseas (especially airline jobs).

Get knowledgable on the facts and be prepared to share them. Remember which party voted for and against the cabotage in Anchorage. That should tell you who will support the worker and who will support upper management.