ERJ XJT PBS Questions

[Nevets]

The XJT guys don't understand PBS and assume that the ASA system is terrible, just because. So they're grasping at straws to prove that their "system" is better. It's not.

I think most of us are going off of what our scheduling committee has said. They've done the research and published the cliff notes. They've invited and shown our pilots how each system works side by side with real current pairings. That gives them at least some credibility. If they say that flightline would be a decrease in QOL for us and that if any PBS is going to maintain at least the same QOL, it's smartpref, then I'm inclined to listen to them rather than the other side who wouldn't even consider our line bidding. So far I haven't heard anything from any side on how flightline is better than smartpref other than one thing, globalization (which can be mitigated with work rules if need be), and ignore everything else about the system.

Who is being unreasonable in all of this? The side who is open minded enough to even entertain PBS while we are happy with our line bidding or the side who has been intransigent and makes convenient assumptions just because it doesn't coincide with their original position, looking for reasons why it can't work?

 

[Speedtape]

The following are facts that cannot be refuted:

1. Smartpref has been around for over 7 years.
>In that time, they have not signed one customer. Why?
>So, there are no pilot testimonies to guage. Maybe, there is a reason-- 7 years?

2. Smartpref utilizes GLOBALIZATION for it's solver logic.
>This is the same logic used in all the other Pilot egregious PBS-- except for Prefbid.
>Globalization will ignore your dream pairings that are available to you even if available.
>Globalization denies Power to the Pilot in building his tailored schedule. (YOU LOSE CONTROL)

3. Pilot satisfaction will be higher with a system where you have the most control to build your personal schedule in one process--not all these after second and third processes. In a seniority based system, if you bid correctly, you will not have to "fix" something that a "Scheduler" or more importanly to this conversation, that GLOBALIZATION did to you!

4. Your Scheduling Committee, bless their hearts for trying, can never do an adequate study or research because there is not a method of replicating the exact process that takes place in a "real" bidding environment with 400-500 bidders in a crewclass bidding at the same time! They can only touch the tip of the iceberg by putting in bids in a non-active system to assess the full reach and affects of GLOBALIZATION! GLOBALIZATION is what circumcises the benefit of seniority based bidding!

5. Pilot satisfaction will always be the highest when Pilots have the most Power in bidding. When you introduce a constrainer, governor, regulator, or any other description of GLOBALIZATION, then you are impeding, constraining, restricting, denying, all affected pilots from truly getting the schedules and trips that they want to tailor their work schedules around their lives. And, yes, it can affect your pocketbook, because GLOBALIZATION will drive a line average result for every pilot constrained--leaving no open-time to add more dollars to your paycheck. The pilots who want to fly near guarantee, will be flying something higher near the average line value (alv). The pilots who want to fly for more dollars, will be restricted because they will be held near the alv; there will be little or no opentime.

Some have looked at your line bidding system. We did something very similar in the past. And not to get into the "mine is better than yours" argument, but we only had 3 integration days--still too many. We were able to actullay bid on trips to fill the integration days versus having scheduling do that whole process. Everyone hates integration days--Why? Because, as pilots, to some degree we lose all control over what happens or it forces us to to do something we don't want to do. Integration goes away with PBS--any system! However, a seniority sytem gives you more control, where a GLOBALIZED system takes away that control.

Line bidding is going away. It is too inefficient for the Company and also for the Pilots. It causes conflicts which have to be fixed by the Company and also the resultant schedule usually has to be fixed by the Pilot. It creates the need for more staffing, and it produces more Reserves and less lines. When the Flightline Prefbid was introduced, it created almost 200 more hard lines (200 less Reserves.) There is no need for all those other process of building relief lines and still resulting in too many Reserves.

What you need to consider:

1. Pilot Scheduling Power--More with strict seniority based system; less with GLOBALIZATION. Globalization robs pilots of choice! It's the silent robber!

2. Pilot Testimony--Don't take any system where there is no real track record and you can't get feedback from real pilots that have used those systems.

3. Scheduling Committee Research--Listen, read and study. I am sure your guys are sharp. However, no, HOWEVER, they can't evaluate what they can't see or know about. There are too many unknowns with Smartpref. Why? Because in 7 (SEVEN) years, no customers have signed up! Without a fully fucntional real time data over an extended period of time, NO ONE can fully evaluate what they can't see or know about! Do you really want to be the guinea pig and beta test this product for the next X years, possibly the rest of your career here? It could very well be a Trojan Horse! If GLOBALIZATION is involved, with a secret, proprietray, and very complex algorithm, there is little to NO PREDICTABILITY to your schedule!

4. An overwhelming majority of ASA pilots are very pleased with Prefbid. They would not go back to line bidding because they can tailor their schedule in a way that no scheduler would ever build a schedule. Yes, there are some that will compain--the same 5% that will always complain, because they are on the bubble of holding a line (just like the pilots in your line bidding system--one month they hold a schedule; the next month they don't) or they have not put the time into learning the basics of bidding, yet, they fly $25M complex airplanes around. That group is sprinkled throughout the seniority list and have to be discounted from any survey.

Many of us are not unreasonable or close minded! We as a group were also very adverse to PBS. What we did learn through the process was: GLOBALIZATION based systems DEPRIVE pilots of power in bidding and schedule satisfaction. Any Contiental Pilot will tell you this! Their experience is what has made the legacy XJet pilots so adverse to PBS! Why? Rules and also GLOBALIZATION are the key factors! You can candy coat GLOBALIZATION any way you want, but it works the same in all the GLOBALIZED systems. If you accept a system with GLOBALIZATION, you are compromising and giving concessions because the Pilot will not have any chance of having complete control in building his line. That can extend to denial of specific pairings you wanted and more importanly being able to control your line value (either more days off and little flying or Maximizing your pay check). Why in the world would anyone want to give up that control?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Nice post Speedtape....The silence from Nevets dojetdriver,and Mcpickle is deafening....The ASA pilots are not going to allow the XJT MEC to force this PBS system down our throat.

​

 

[Nevets]

The following are facts that cannot be refuted:

1. Smartpref has been around for over 7 years.
>In that time, they have not signed one customer. Why?
>So, there are no pilot testimonies to guage. Maybe, there is a reason-- 7 years?

2. Smartpref utilizes GLOBALIZATION for it's solver logic.
>This is the same logic used in all the other Pilot egregious PBS-- except for Prefbid.
>Globalization will ignore your dream pairings that are available to you even if available.
>Globalization denies Power to the Pilot in building his tailored schedule. (YOU LOSE CONTROL)

3. Pilot satisfaction will be higher with a system where you have the most control to build your personal schedule in one process--not all these after second and third processes. In a seniority based system, if you bid correctly, you will not have to "fix" something that a "Scheduler" or more importanly to this conversation, that GLOBALIZATION did to you!

4. Your Scheduling Committee, bless their hearts for trying, can never do an adequate study or research because there is not a method of replicating the exact process that takes place in a "real" bidding environment with 400-500 bidders in a crewclass bidding at the same time! They can only touch the tip of the iceberg by putting in bids in a non-active system to assess the full reach and affects of GLOBALIZATION! GLOBALIZATION is what circumcises the benefit of seniority based bidding!

5. Pilot satisfaction will always be the highest when Pilots have the most Power in bidding. When you introduce a constrainer, governor, regulator, or any other description of GLOBALIZATION, then you are impeding, constraining, restricting, denying, all affected pilots from truly getting the schedules and trips that they want to tailor their work schedules around their lives. And, yes, it can affect your pocketbook, because GLOBALIZATION will drive a line average result for every pilot constrained--leaving no open-time to add more dollars to your paycheck. The pilots who want to fly near guarantee, will be flying something higher near the average line value (alv). The pilots who want to fly for more dollars, will be restricted because they will be held near the alv; there will be little or no opentime.

Some have looked at your line bidding system. We did something very similar in the past. And not to get into the "mine is better than yours" argument, but we only had 3 integration days--still too many. We were able to actullay bid on trips to fill the integration days versus having scheduling do that whole process. Everyone hates integration days--Why? Because, as pilots, to some degree we lose all control over what happens or it forces us to to do something we don't want to do. Integration goes away with PBS--any system! However, a seniority sytem gives you more control, where a GLOBALIZED system takes away that control.

Line bidding is going away. It is too inefficient for the Company and also for the Pilots. It causes conflicts which have to be fixed by the Company and also the resultant schedule usually has to be fixed by the Pilot. It creates the need for more staffing, and it produces more Reserves and less lines. When the Flightline Prefbid was introduced, it created almost 200 more hard lines (200 less Reserves.) There is no need for all those other process of building relief lines and still resulting in too many Reserves.

What you need to consider:

1. Pilot Scheduling Power--More with strict seniority based system; less with GLOBALIZATION. Globalization robs pilots of choice! It's the silent robber!

2. Pilot Testimony--Don't take any system where there is no real track record and you can't get feedback from real pilots that have used those systems.

3. Scheduling Committee Research--Listen, read and study. I am sure your guys are sharp. However, no, HOWEVER, they can't evaluate what they can't see or know about. There are too many unknowns with Smartpref. Why? Because in 7 (SEVEN) years, no customers have signed up! Without a fully fucntional real time data over an extended period of time, NO ONE can fully evaluate what they can't see or know about! Do you really want to be the guinea pig and beta test this product for the next X years, possibly the rest of your career here? It could very well be a Trojan Horse! If GLOBALIZATION is involved, with a secret, proprietray, and very complex algorithm, there is little to NO PREDICTABILITY to your schedule!

4. An overwhelming majority of ASA pilots are very pleased with Prefbid. They would not go back to line bidding because they can tailor their schedule in a way that no scheduler would ever build a schedule. Yes, there are some that will compain--the same 5% that will always complain, because they are on the bubble of holding a line (just like the pilots in your line bidding system--one month they hold a schedule; the next month they don't) or they have not put the time into learning the basics of bidding, yet, they fly $25M complex airplanes around. That group is sprinkled throughout the seniority list and have to be discounted from any survey.

Many of us are not unreasonable or close minded! We as a group were also very adverse to PBS. What we did learn through the process was: GLOBALIZATION based systems DEPRIVE pilots of power in bidding and schedule satisfaction. Any Contiental Pilot will tell you this! Their experience is what has made the legacy XJet pilots so adverse to PBS! Why? Rules and also GLOBALIZATION are the key factors! You can candy coat GLOBALIZATION any way you want, but it works the same in all the GLOBALIZED systems. If you accept a system with GLOBALIZATION, you are compromising and giving concessions because the Pilot will not have any chance of having complete control in building his line. That can extend to denial of specific pairings you wanted and more importanly being able to control your line value (either more days off and little flying or Maximizing your pay check). Why in the world would anyone want to give up that control?

Many here have said something to the effect of, why would we want to go with a system that has never been used? A system which we may be stuck with with many bugs or unknowns until its too late. That we would be stuck with it for XX amount of years. Well, ASA guys, your side has NOTHING to worry about that. Because the ERJ side will be the guinea pig before it ever makes it to the jcba. We will all get real pilot testimonies to gauge. We will get a real track record with real feedback from real pilots that haves used that system. Our sharp scheduling committee, bless their hearts, will be able to do adequate study and research with real time the exact process that takes place in a "real" bidding environment. They will be able to touch the rest of the iceberg by seeing bids in an active system to asses the full reach and effects of globalization. They will be able to evaluate with real data they can see. We will see all of the unknowns with smartpref because we will be using it to make real life schedules. We will have a fully functional real to e data over an extended period of time. We will be the beta test for this product for XX years and possibly the rest of our carriers here. We will find out if it is a Trojan Horse. We will find out how unpredictable globalization really is with our work rules.

You are not close minded? You said you guys were very adverse to PBS and now the "overwhelming majority of ASA pilots are very pleased with prefbid.". So what is to say the same isn't true now? If you are not close minded, then why won't you even consider smartpref, especially when it's the ERJ guys who will be the guinea pigs? I mean, you have NOTHING to lose by smartpref being the evil you portray it to be with the same lack of real data and information you blast it for?

And like many many ASA guys have said when defending prefbid's shortcomings, it's about work rules. Well, I've pointed out two work rules that would mitigate your concerns with globalization yet I haven't heard a response from you, JoeMerchant or anyone else. One rule, being crucial to not taking a concession on the ERJ side would be a guaranteed percentage of open it e left over after the final award equivalent to what we have at the start of the SLIW. The other one being composite lines.

Lastly, globalization is a way to make us more efficient. For those of JoeMerchant's mentality, what is wrong with that? We need to play the game now that we lost brand scope. And if the company needs globalization and getting rid of vacation low in order to remain cost competitive, then what is wrong with giving them globalization? After all, we can't get everything we want and we can just trade globalization in order to strengthen other parts of the contract!

Anyway, relax! If it is anything you say smartpref will be (although you have no real data to prove any of it) and you are not close minded like you said, then you have NOTHING to worry about. So just sit back and see how it goes on the ERJ side. You should be hoping that it turns out better than your system so that we can further improve the contract. Unless your close minded, of course.

 

[OCP]

One rule, being crucial to not taking a concession on the ERJ side would be a guaranteed percentage of open it e left over after the final award equivalent to what we have at the start of the SLIW. The other one being composite lines.

Lastly, globalization is a way to make us more efficient. For those of JoeMerchant's mentality, what is wrong with that? We need to play the game now that we lost brand scope. And if the company needs globalization and getting rid of vacation low in order to remain cost competitive, then what is wrong with giving them globalization?

The entire point to any PBS system for the company is to eliminate open time to run more efficiently and give you the schedule you want the first time. Why would the company want to give you a bunch of open time? What would be the point?

And if you guys are even considering getting rid of vacation low, then you are more short sighted than you could possibly realize. You need to really look at how well that works for our side.

For someone who a month a go was "NO PBS TO THE LAST DAY!" your sure as he!! jumped on board with this system and with this last post are ready to give up great things to help them out with this wonderful globalization that F's the bottom 35% or so.

 

[OCP]

Make sure you run pairings for the CRJ too. We fly VERY different stage lengths than you do under United. What fits your route may not for us. Thet is if you are worried about a fair system for all.

 

[OCP]

And if you guys are even considering getting rid of vacation low, then you are more short sighted than you could possibly realize. You need to really look at how well that works for our side.

Never mind I think you were trying to be ironic on this one. It's eary here!

 

[OCP]

Eary=early

 

[777forever]

For once I agree with Nevets. Let the ERJ pilots try it out and let us know how it goes. He also made another good point, I'm strongly against globalization and getting rid of vacation low. But my opinion is for sale. If the company compensates me well enough in other parts of the contract I'd consider the trade off. Better be some damn good compensation though or they can pound sand.

Anyways, have fun with smartpref bid ERJ peeps and let us, know how it goes!

 

[Nevets]

The entire point to any PBS system for the company is to eliminate open time to run more efficiently and give you the schedule you want the first time. Why would the company want to give you a bunch of open time? What would be the point?

And if you guys are even considering getting rid of vacation low, then you are more short sighted than you could possibly realize. You need to really look at how well that works for our side.

For someone who a month a go was "NO PBS TO THE LAST DAY!" your sure as he!! jumped on board with this system and with this last post are ready to give up great things to help them out with this wonderful globalization that F's the bottom 35% or so.

The vacation low paragraph was sarcasm for those here that a month ago were saying things like, we can't get everything we must stay cost competitive we need to strengthen other parts of the contract etc.

As for open time, like I've said, regardless of if the company wants it a certain way, without it, it would be a concession on the ERJ side. Look at it this way, the company wants vacation low to run more efficiently. Why would the company want to pay anyone for not working? What would be the point? Yet you still want vacation low, deservedly (and I would want it too), because otherwise it would be a concession.

Lastly, people conveniently ignore the same mantra that some of you guys use in defending the shortcomings of your bidding system, and that is that it's also about the work rules. Well I keep mentioning just two work rules and all I hear about that is why THE COMPANY won't want it and more excuses. Just negativity. It's like you guys are looking for reasons it won't work. Composite lines along with a certain percentage equal to what we have at the opening of the SLIW (which is very minimal) would mitigate your concerns with globalization.

The company is going to shove PBS for our relief lines whether we like it or not. The scheduling committee has found one that might give us the same QOL if we have certain work rules. We are at least open minded about it. We are not looking for reasons why it won't work. If it doesn't work, trust us, we would rather stay separate than to go with PBS for everyone. So like I said already, RELAX! This is not affecting you. Because if it doesn't work, you will keep prefbid. If it works for us, it means that the QOL is better than prefbid and you should want it, unless of course you are close minded.

Make sure you run pairings for the CRJ too. We fly VERY different stage lengths than you do under United. What fits your route may not for us. Thet is if you are worried about a fair system for all.

This is for your MEC to do. Our MEC looked at ALL PBS systems (apparently even those that arent even being used). Yours have been unwilling to look at ANYTHING other than prefbid. Who is close minded here? But this is an issue of pairing build not line build. And I be,waive that you are using the ERJ pairing builder now with better results than before.

 

[sweptback]

f it doesn't work, trust us, we would rather stay separate than to go with PBS for everyone.

Good luck with that. With your side refusing to negotiate a joint contract, you'll never see an improvement to your contract, US Airways style. You think your contract is good now, but what about 5 years from now with no pay raises? All because you refuse to consider the most pilot-friendly PBS system in the industry?

This is for your MEC to do. Our MEC looked at ALL PBS systems (apparently even those that arent even being used). Yours have been unwilling to look at ANYTHING other than prefbid. Who is close minded here? But this is an issue of pairing build not line build. And I be,waive that you are using the ERJ pairing builder now with better results than before.

Because they already did that 2-3 years ago. There haven't really been any changes in the PBS landscape since then, so why do it again? Our side already looked at Smartpref and rejected it long ago.

 

[Nevets]

Good luck with that. With your side refusing to negotiate a joint contract, you'll never see an improvement to your contract, US Airways style. You think your contract is good now, but what about 5 years from now with no pay raises? All because you refuse to consider the most pilot-friendly PBS system in the industry?

And who is going have a better contract if not ASA or XJT? Eagle? Pinnacle? Republic? TSA/Gojet/Compass? Skywest? All these places are either losing aircraft, in financial dire straits, both, or have me too "clauses" who just ride coat tails. But the CRJ side will also be stuck with their contract. Who will be negotiating from a stronger position in that scenario? Not the CRJ side.

Because they already did that 2-3 years ago. There haven't really been any changes in the PBS landscape since then, so why do it again? Our side already looked at Smartpref and rejected it long ago.

That is not true from what my rep has told me. They didn't look at smartpref and they didn't look at our line bidding system and work rules.

 

[Nevets]

Nice post Speedtape....The silence from Nevets dojetdriver,and Mcpickle is deafening....The ASA pilots are not going to allow the XJT MEC to force this PBS system down our throat.

​

What silence? I replied to speedtape and still no response. And like I said, we are not forcing it on anybody. If anything, we are being forced onto it by management. We are the test subject. If it really is that bad, you have nothing to worry about. Relax already, not everything is about you.

 

[Speedtape]

And who is going have a better contract if not ASA or XJT? Eagle? Pinnacle? Republic? TSA/Gojet/Compass? Skywest? All these places are either losing aircraft, in financial dire straits, both, or have me too "clauses" who just ride coat tails. But the CRJ side will also be stuck with their contract. Who will be negotiating from a stronger position in that scenario? Not the CRJ side.

Get a clue, Dude. Your Company was doomed a little over a year ago, until Jerry rode in and rescued you. Read some of his latest comments about his current thoughts on that transaction--it may surprise you. The ERJ side has no leverage, but now we are both in the barrel and trying to climb out. We can either find a way to do it together, or we will suffer together.



That is not true from what my rep has told me. They didn't look at smartpref and they didn't look at our line bidding system and work rules.

Smartpref was looked at. They had no customers, no track record, and no sound financial backing according to one of the 3 pilots on that committee. According to him, the Company refused to continue any further investigation because it did not want to take the risk. That has not changed, but they will let your Sched Committee play in the sand box all you want as long as it does not cost them a penny. Good luck with your test. We will all be watching with great interest.

 

[CEO silly sap]

Imagine your the ASA MEC sched committee and you have stated the perf bid ASA has is the best of the best.
Now some small timer from XJT runs analysis and determines that another perf bid is far superior to that of ASA.

Of Course the ASA Neg committee will dig in and tell everyone it's their perf bid or nothing, just to save face and not be thrown out by the ASA pilots.

 

[Clutch]

We "perfer" it.

 

[www.]

Imagine your the ASA MEC sched committee and you have stated the perf bid ASA has is the best of the best.
Now some small timer from XJT runs analysis and determines that another perf bid is far superior to that of ASA.

Of Course the ASA Neg committee will dig in and tell everyone it's their perf bid or nothing, just to save face and not be thrown out by the ASA pilots.

Let's say your an old fart retired from major airline and has no life so he sits on web boards looking to stick his nose into some thing he has no idea what the hell he's talking about much less knows the players and the game.

 

[Freebrd]

getting rid of vacation low. But my opinion is for sale. If the company compensates me well enough in other parts of the contract I'd consider the trade off. Better be some damn good compensation though or they can pound sand.

Anyways, have fun with smartpref bid ERJ peeps and let us, know how it goes!

hearing the Co or union offered another week of vacation, yeah like thats equal to the additional weeks off one can get with vacation low

 

[Tarzan]

No and they won't either. They prefer back room tactics and no communication. After all.....they know whats REALLY best for the pilot group.

Oh, and be assured they'll get a little bonus to sell it to us. Maybe 8 hours per day for "union business"


XJT MEC can't take over fast enough as far as I'm concerned.

You'll be whining then too. Little girl.


http://asamec.alpa.org/portals/32/p...e_paper_smartpref_and_flightline_analysis.pdf

Read your comms every now and then.

 

[Nevets]

Smartpref was looked at. They had no customers, no track record, and no sound financial backing according to one of the 3 pilots on that committee. According to him, the Company refused to continue any further investigation because it did not want to take the risk. That has not changed, but they will let your Sched Committee play in the sand box all you want as long as it does not cost them a penny. Good luck with your test. We will all be watching with great interest.

See below, it wasn't really looked at. And now they have a paying customer in our company, a track record, and the company is working with crewing solutions and our scheduling committee to bring it online. The first parallel bid went so well that they ended up using the smartpref solution.

You'll be whining then too. Little girl.


http://asamec.alpa.org/portals/32/p...e_paper_smartpref_and_flightline_analysis.pdf

Read your comms every now and then.

My understanding is that they have not run any solutions using real trips or anything other than the generic version I the software. Basically, that it wasn't an honest unbiased attempt to research it thoroughly.