ERJ-195, B717, B737-600, Airbus 318?

[corky]

Yeah, McDonnell Douglas was on the verge of shutting down the commercial aircraft division before the merger. McDonnell hated Douglas. They gave the MD-95(717) program very little money to make it happen and our suppliers got pretty beaten up on price so quality suffered on interior components. Airtran went through a lot of growing pains sorting these things out. Just one example, the latch mechs. on the overhead bins were junk and caused many delays and cancelations. The seats were another low cost item where quality suffered to save a buck. Otherwise the airplane is a typical stout Douglas product. Great engines and avionics and the airframe will last you at least 30 years. Unfortunately it will propbably out of production in 2 to 3 years.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

120,

Of course there are no hard feelings! It takes a lot more than a discussion like this to get me hot under the collar.

To answer your question, FM still exists at DAL with regards to the furloughs, however, it does not with regards to our scope block hour limits. Also, the 70-seat limit is not subject to FM at all, that section is iron-clad, so if the Skywest CEO is negotiating with our mgt for "greater flexibility," he is negotiating with the wrong people.

I only posted to keep you informed of some other factors which might influence your discussion.

Fly safe.

 

[hawkowl88]

codeshare vs. delta connection

I agree that Delta's scope clause is still firm with its Delta Connection carriers, which is problematic for Skywest if they wish to fly larger jets. However, it is common knowledge that both the United and Delta contracts are being renegotiated. So Skywest could opt to buy bigger jets and codeshare with Delta rather than be a contract Delta Connection carrier. Why not? Delta has systematically been pulling out of the western U.S. for years. Replacing mainline with r.j.'s and heavies with narrow bodies. Instead of shouldering all the risk with a guaranteed fee for departure, Delta would get to shift a lot of the risk to Skywest for a percentage of the codeshare ticket sales.

Now this would not violate scope would it? I mean didn't Delta just enter into a monumental codeshare with Continental and Northwest? How would a codeshare with Skywest flying 100 seaters be any different?

I think that this could be a new direction/business model for the old giant majors. Holding on to the long haul and international routes while becoming a kind of "virtual" airline specializing in codeshare ticket sales for low yield shorter haul.

 

[KFFA]

Hawkowl88,

I think you just found the loop hole that SkyWest Magmt. found a few months ago. I think you have got soething here???

 

[rightrudder]

120% torque writes:

"Reversing direction one more time, I think SkyWest would be smart to buy Frontier Airlines and feed the current JetExpress operated by Mesa with it's own possible surplus of RJ's. Frontier's current market Cap is only $150 million."

You'd have to say buh-bye to UAL if Skywest wanted to do this. You'd basically be in direct competition with UAL, a big no-no for an express carrier.

If Ual goes TU, you can bet Frontier will poise themselves to pick up a lot of the slack left in DEN.

 

[hopeful]

If Ual goes TU, you can bet Frontier will poise themselves to pick up a lot of the slack left in DEN.

So will SWA. This will be a highly sought after market. All bets are off if UAL goes TU. Carriers that had not thought of going to Denver will now be fighting over it.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Hawk and KFFA,

There is no loophole. The only reason that Delta is able to codeshare with CAL and NWA is that we gave our permission for that specific proposal, and that one only. The prohibition against any of our other domestic codeshare partners operating ANY jets larger than 70 seats is still in effect, and it is not subject to forced majeure. Hope that helps.

P.S.
I don't know why it is "common knowledge" that we are renegotiating our contract. The fact is, we are not negotiating anything right now. Chances are, mgt may come asking for concessions, but they have not done so yet; So while we might negotiate in the future, we are not doing so now.

PPS
I cannot envision any scenario when we would allow any DCI partner to ever operate anything over 70 seats. Most think that 70 seats were too many, there would be an absolute mutiny if that limit were ever raised. Of course, that is just my opinion; I have been wrong before!

Fly safe

 

[~~~^~~~]

The only reason that Delta is able to codeshare with CAL and NWA is that we gave our permission for that specific proposal, and that one only. The prohibition against any of our other domestic codeshare partners operating ANY jets larger than 70 seats is still in effect, and it is not subject to forced majeure. Hope that helps.

I cannot envision any scenario when we would allow any DCI partner to ever operate anything over 70 seats.

What gives Delta pilots the right to set seat limits on aircraft being flown at Skywest for United?

Don't know if you have followed the situation at Republic (aka Chautauqua) where ALPA's jets for jobs program was ample justification for abrogating the Chautauqua pilots' working agreement by starting up a subsidiary that falls outside of Chautauqua's scope.

The only thing that closes that loop hole in your contract is use of "domestic air carrier" in your prohibition. However, that is so overly broad that it generates a restraint of trade, limiting the tools and methods of production, which is not protected in labor's exemption from anti trust regulation.

If ALPA gets challenged on this there is little they can do than to lose the definition and go back to using scope as a labor tool. There is no reason why Delta pilots should control flying Skywest does for another airline and the law reflects that common sense approach.

Regards,
~~~^~~~

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Fins,

You are correct. We have no right to limit the size of the airplanes skywest fies for UAL. However, we do have the right to approve the airlines with whom DAL codeshares. This is both legal and common. Skywest has the right to purchase and operate any airplanes they want. However, if they were to do so, we have the contractual right to force DAL to look elsewhere for their connection carrier needs. This is not a limit on skywest, it is a limit on Delta management.

 

[Russ]

Is it not semantics? The implied threat is that the SkyWest contract would be viewed as open to discussion by D Pilots because they fly larger jets for UA or elsewhere. Perhaps it was not your intent to convey it that way, but I read it as your contract contains some veiled threat against regionals that fly larger aircraft. Sorry if I took it wrong. I don't dispute your legal right, but why would Dalpa consider reviewing the contract with SkyWest because they fly 70 or more seats for another carrier?