ERJ-195, B717, B737-600, Airbus 318?

[120% Torque]

Wow, it does indeed sound like Northwest is good at the "whipsaw". I dont like the sound of those tactics. What do you mean by NW only operating A319's in the future? What about all their other types?

 

[cl-65link]

i think the -9's will eventually be retired, and the smallest aircraft left will be the 319. They will still have 757, the "whale", and eventually the A-330.

 

[120% Torque]

Thanks for the info, 65! On another note it looks like United is trying to really screw its three express carriers. ACA recently filed suit to get a straight answer from United if it will honor it's contract. They want the BK judge to force United to give this information before the end of February for financial planning and to decide if they need to actively pursuit a different code share partner. On top of this it appears United’s hardball tactics with its creditors may be backfiring. As United has demanded half price deals on most of it's aircraft leases including some of it's newer equipment, creditors seem to be getting fed up and more anxious to get a reasonable payment or possibly a return of some of the newer airplanes. United may think these tactics are the best way to get what they need but I think it could end up doing more damage in the long run. SkyWest and now apparently ACA are threatening to take their RJ's elsewhere if United keeps this crap up. This would instantly not only weaken United more but buoy up it's competitors all in one fell swoop. On top of that I think as some of these regionals get backed into the corner they may be left with little choice but to come out swinging by starting independent "at risk" flying and directly competing with United on the routes they used to feed United on. This type of scenario was the basis that this thread was started on (SkyWest's need for bigger airplanes) and quite probably why some top managers at SkyWest have dropped a hint that bigger airplanes are a very real possibility.

Reversing direction one more time, I think SkyWest would be smart to buy Frontier Airlines and feed the current JetExpress operated by Mesa with it's own possible surplus of RJ's. Frontier's current market Cap is only $150 million. SkyWest has the money and know how to pull this off and grow things from there. America West could be had for just over $100 mil but it has too many liabilities and operational problems. JetBlue and Alaska are out of SkyWest's price range up at over 1 billion each. So, when all is said and done I see SkyWest either 1. Starting a completely new operation with 717's, 737's or A318/9's 2. Buying Frontier and integrating. 3. Buying chunks of United when they go Chapter 7. In the mean time they will do everything they can to secure their current code shares until they can ramp up for any of these other three possibilities. Don’t be surprised to see another code share announced by SkyWest in the very near future also. Of course all of these scenarios and predictions are subject to change and mileage may vary so don’t kill the messenger Do I have any "Devils Advocates"' to help me see the error of my thinking....I've been wrong before!

 

[KFFA]

Where does COEX routes come into play in your thought process. This rumor has been going around now. Either flying in the Neast or down in the carib?

 

[SKYWRJGUY]

Hmm.....

You know, there's more to purshasing an airline that simply paying cash or exchanging stock to the market cap of the target airline. Especially in the industry, debt is one big consideration, as the assumption could just as well bury the buyer as it has the bought.

Additionally, I haven't heard anything about us "ready" to take our RJs and look elsewhere. I've heard we're looking as a backup plan, but not as a threat to get United moving. I don't think UAL is waffling on purpose, I think they're trying to swim upstream with lead weights on their feet.

 

[XJslave]

CL65 how long have you been at 9E? NWA will never let the 9s die the last crew to fly a bus to the boneyard will ride back on a DC9. NWA loves those old hunks of crap.

 

[DoinTime]

Also, much like Delta is overlapping it's Delta Connection flying with several outfits Northwest may want to "strike proof" its territory as well. That is just a guess though.

The NW MEC has veto rights against any new codeshare agreements and they have vowed to have Pinnacle and Mesaba be the exclusive "regional" partners. With the way Duane Worth has been pounding the "brand scope" drum it would be ironic if he allowed his own carrier to violate it. I don't believe that Big Sky, or anyone else, will be getting a piece of the NWA pie any time soon.

 

[Ty Webb]

The problem with stretching a 717 and making it go farther is it starts to conflict with 737 sales

No, Corky, the problem with stretching a B717 and making it go farther" are the **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** UNCOMFORTABLE SEATS!

Ask any B717 pilot, and he'll tell you, the two problems are the hard seats, and the maddening fact that the FMS changes between a default "cruise" speed and a "descent" speed. When ATC hangs a speed on you, which happens just about every flight now, they don;t care if you are level OR descending, and neither should the FMS. 300 assigned is 300 assigned, is 300 assigned, is "300 ASSIGNED!".

Other than that, the B717 definitely does not suck.

 

[corky]

Hey Ty,

I hear you on the seats. They are unconfortable. There were several changes made prior to production based on the Boeing pilots feedback but then again they don't spend 6 to 8 hours in the airplane per day. I spoke with cog engineer for the seats and he hadn't heard of any complaints from the field. If it's really an issue get L.N. or J.O. to write a letter and we'll see what can be done.
As far as the FMS goes I don't really understand what you're talking about. I'm assuming you mean when you're in prof mode and the airplane begins the descent it swithches to a default speed? If that's the case can't you go into the PERF page and enter a descent speed while at cruise? Clarify the scenario and I'll look into it. We have some FMS mods coming out soon. Not sure if your complaint will be addressed.

Corky

 

[Midnight Mike]

Airtran has only positive comments about the 717 and is making noise to Boeing about 717-300, Qantas (formerly Impulse) loves the 717 and has been making noise to Boeing about 713 as well.

The 717 is made for the short hop market, Airtran says that they are saving 20-30% in fuel when compaired against the DC9.

The only drawback for the 717 for the regionals is the price tag, 20-30 million per aircraft, ouch!


Mike

 

[cl-65link]

XJ slave, since you apparently work for XJ, you might want to read the minutes from the joint ALPA meeting in DTW last fall. The senoir NW 747 captain who attended and answered questions at the meeting(he currently has a seat on the Finance board at NW) said in response to a question, I believe, the smallest aircraft that NW would be operating in "the future" would be the A-319. FYI, I'll have been at Pinnacle 7 years in 2 weeks.

 

[120% Torque]

Boeing Rejects 717-300 For AirTran

Looks like Boeing isn't interested in building the 717 stretch and is pushing it's little 737 instead. This could backfire and send more folks over to Airbus:

"Boeing's top salesman has rejected the streched B717 (-300) during a meeting with AirTran today. Boeing is pushing for the larger 737NG.

"AirTran is looking for capacity more than 117 pax. 736 is 110-seater and 73G is 126-seater. Both can fly trans-continental, which suitable for AirTran's need.

"We are talking to AirTran. We think that a 737-700 or even a -600 might be the right size for doing what they do and have the capability to do what they are wanting to do," Bright told reporters on a teleconference.

There are 40 orders for the 717. AirTran already plans to take 73 of all 153 717. It may order another 50 plus 50 options this year.

AirTran Chief Executive Joe Leonard told Reuters this week that the airline would also consider buying jets from Boeing rival Airbus SAS (XETRA:EAD.DE - News; Paris:EAD.PA - News), which builds a family of jets, the A320 class, ranging from 107 seats to 185."

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1016050/

 

[Midnight Mike]

Do not be too surprised, Boeing will build the 717-300, there is enough
interest right now for Boeing to go ahead with the 713er. Qantas, Hawaiian
& Airtran have all expresse interest. Boeing can not afford to lose anymore
customers. With the 717er, expect to see Northwest & Alaska take another
look at the 717.
With a family of 717's, Skywest may start to think Boeing....

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

Fleet simplification

B717, B737, CRJ, A320

It is a big mistake for Boeing to shelve the idea of stretching or shrinking the B717. The Type is DC9 for the MD80 and the B717.

Airlines are trying to simplify their fleets. Example: if Air Tran wants a bigger plane, the B717-300 would be the most logical choice. Same type, a few more pages in the POH and some differences training and your are checked out.

SkyWest: the CRJ stretched version would make more sense for the above reasons. Why add a different fleet type, bid package, added costs, etc.

B717 seats: Yes, they are uncomfortable. I believe the airlines that originally ordered them chose the RJ-typed seats for reduced costs, figuring it would be for shorter hauls. Corky, add your opinion.

If an operator goes with the B717 they could also operate the MD80 as more of them come available without the added costs of a different fleet type.

 

[120% Torque]

If I'm not mistaken SkyWest is currently looking at the 130 seat and less market. I dont know for sure but I doubt the Canadair could be stretched up to that seat count. If SkyWest decided to go up to that many seats I would think they would buy CRJ 50,70,90 as required and then jump to one more Type. The 717-200 would be ideal for this next jump if they knew the -300 would be there to take them up to the 130 seat range. This way you only have a total of two Types and keep training costs down. Of course I am making two assumptions and those are that the CRJ is about stretched out and that all three CRJ's could be flown with one type rating with differences training only. Does anybody know if this is a fact?

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

If Skywest wanted to fly anything over 70 seats, they would no longer be allowed to codeshare with Delta. This applies whether they fly those airplanes on the Delta code or not. Our contract forbids Delta from codesharing with any carrier that operates anything larger than 70 seats without the permission of the Delta MEC. That permission has not been granted for Skywest, and I don't imagine it would.

Therefore, any conversation or speculation about what airplane Skywest might choose must be accompanied by a discussion about whether or not their mgt would accept the loss of the Delta code in order to buy those rumored jets.

 

[120% Torque]

FlyDeltasJets, you bring up a good point and certainly something that should not be overlooked. When I started this thread I emphasized that "IF" SkyWest were to go looking for a bigger aircraft....We dont know that they will ever actually get one though it appears United will be asking them to fly the 70 seaters in the near future. From what I have heard, the CEO of SkyWest (Jerry Atkin) has been working with both Delta and United to come out with a Win/Win situation. In exchange for lowering operating costs for the major partners he is asking for more flexability with the current restrictions. He has already stated that scope at United is nearly dead because they need to do what ever they need to do to become profitable and this might include giving routes they they make no money on out to their regional affiliates with bigger airplanes. Is Delta still operating under Force Majeior sp? My interest lies in what happens if SkyWest can fly bigger airplanes. Figuring out what airplane is kind of an interesting exercise for me and some others not meant to get anybody hot under the collar about scope clauses and the like. No hard feelings, OK?

Now that I have covered that ground I want to touch on what I think Airtran will do if Boeing doesn't build the 717 stretch. If in fact Airbus is "giving away" their airplanes as has been reported lately then I would not be surprized to see Airtran Add a second type to their fleet in the form of a A318/19. At the last aviation conference Airtran said they are not aposed to operating two aircraft types. It will be interesting to see how that all plays out and what they (Boeing, Airtran) decide to do.

 

[corky]

Re: Fleet simplification

B717, B737, CRJ, A320

B717 seats: Yes, they are uncomfortable. I believe the airlines that originally ordered them chose the RJ-typed seats for reduced costs, figuring it would be for shorter hauls. Corky, add your opinion.

If an operator goes with the B717 they could also operate the MD80 as more of them come available without the added costs of a different fleet type.

we asked several vendors to place a bid......the cheapest won. The only say the airlines had was cloth or wool skin.

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

Corky, thanks fo rthe clarification.

When the B717 arrived on the property at TWA, the plane was well received. I did notice the seats felt work like the type on the RJ; not as comfortable as other jetliners. The DC9 even had beter seat!

I thought the airline was trying save a buck, but this time it looks like it was the manufacturer.

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

Who me, spell check? Nah!

eom