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memooch

Active member
Joined
May 28, 2004
Posts
25
Has anyone ever experienced an engine fire, either during start-up or in flight? I'm mainly concerned with what the SPECIFIC circumstances/conditions (i.e., cold, overprimed, etc.) were which caused the fire. If you can point me to any good articles written on the subject, that would be helpful.

Thanks,
memooch
 
memooch said:
Has anyone ever experienced an engine fire, either during start-up or in flight? I'm mainly concerned with what the SPECIFIC circumstances/conditions (i.e., cold, overprimed, etc.) were which caused the fire. If you can point me to any good articles written on the subject, that would be helpful.

Thanks,
memooch

IF you need to know checklists on resolving the problem look into the POH, but if ur looking for causes... that could be anything. On startup if flames are coming out of the exhaust, thats more of an overpriming issue, but in flight, look between your legs and start kissing.... LOL i would guess that if you had an engine fire in the air, the engine fire in flight checklist would take away all of the factors that would cause the fire. Ya get what i mean?
 
I have logged 2,000 hours with my engine on fire, but that is under tightly controlled circumstances. I do not know how it really works, so I just pretend that little keebler elves are diligently tending to this and keeping the fire pointed in the right direction and all that good stuff.

If the fire becomes uncontained during flight and gets out of the elve's control, I get a red light and a horn. I then check the elf monitoring gauges to verify their malfeasance. Then I do my "five things" memory item, assume elf vacation speed, then do some chatting on the radio or some reading...depending on which one would be the prudent thing to do.

Sometimes a little fire in front of you, is a good thing...especially if you have disposable income.

Most of the engine fires that I have seen were on the ground and were on piston aircraft. I recently saw a Cherokee six that had a burnt engine cowling because an engine fire occurred during start up. It was burnt up pretty badly.

On another day, I was riding in a 182 as a skydiver and one of the other skydivers noticed a 152 on the ramp that was idling, but there was engine fire in progress and the 152 crew was unaware. That was 10 years ago and the details are foggy, but we did shut down so we could tell them and got them to shut down as well. If I remember correctly, I think the jumper noticed flames by the wheel well or by the air filter in front, but as I said...it has been a while.

If you are looking for causes of engine fires...I was flying a 414 once on a maint test flight with a mechanic. The new engine was running rough, so we came back and landed. When the mechanic got out of the plane, I heard the cowling come off as I finished securing the cockpit. Then I heard some cussing and I see his tight little white ass go running into the hanger.

I then hear him yelling and screaming at some mechanics in the hanger and the sound of some tools being thrown around. I get out of the plane, I see a puddle the size of a sedan under the left wing, and it is still dripping. The new engine is stained 100LL blue...including the turbocharger housing.

The mechanic came back out with some wrenches and showed me where the fuel lines coming from the spider valve were only "finger" tight. Yea, that could have been a really cool fire.
 
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Milkdud99 said:
... but if ur looking for causes... that could be anything.
Uhhh, not really.

Milkdud99 said:
On startup if flames are coming out of the exhaust, thats more of an overpriming issue ...
Not correct either.

The most likley time that you will experience an engine fire is during start and it will almost always be the result of pumping the throttle, not overpriming.

It is VERY useful to understand exactly how the priming system does what it does for you. It is also very useful to understand what pumping the throttle does and why it's not a good idea to "prime" the engine in this way.

If you look at the fuel system schematic in your POH you'll see where the primer fits into things. Generally, what the primer does is take fuel from the carburetor feed line and port it to a syringe-like plunger. When you unlock the plunger and pull it out you draw a measured amount of fuel out of the line. When you push it back in you take that fuel and squirt it DIRECTLY into the intake manifold, basically at the valve(s), of 1, 2, or 3 cylinders - depending on the engine installation.

What this does is put fuel where it would not otherwise go in sufficient quantities to get things going considering normal cranking airflow rates through the carburetor. How effective it is depends on how many cylinders receive priming and how many shots you give it.

It is important to note this as an aside. The reason you are admonished to make sure the primer is in and locked is because of what it does - take fuel from the supply and place it directly at the intake point for one or more cylinders. If you leave it out what you do is leave a pathway open for fuel to flow from the supply line directly into the intake manifold in an un-metered fashion, completely bypassing the carburetor and indeed adding to its metered fuel arriving in the customary way. The fuel in this line even has a reason to flow - the vacuum of the intake stroke of the pistion while the intake valve is open. The result is a mixture that is FAR too rich resulting in anything from rough operation or outright failure. Put the primer back in after one of these events and you'll get your engine back.

Now, pumping the throttle does something entirely different. When you pump the throttle rapidly you engage a device called an accelerator pump. What it is there to do is provide a blast of fuel when you rapidly open the throttle. the reason your engine needs this is because when you open the throttle valve rapidly you poke a huge hole in a relatively stable vacuum on the engine side of the throttle valve. When you do this you destroy that vacuum and momentarily cause a large disruption in the airflow velocity past the venturi. When this happens little or no fuel is dispensed by the carburetor and so the engine is temporarily starved of the fuel it needs and it stumbles.

By shooting a bit of fuel into the throat of the carburetor at precisely the time it is needed most the accelerator pump makes engine acceleration smoother and more predictable anytime you advance the power.

Now, the reason you need to know all this is because of the way the carburetor is mounted on many training aircraft - intake DOWN. If you pump the throttle on a carburetor set up this way when the engine is not running the fuel is delivered by the accelerator pump up into the throat of the carb but has nothing to carry it along since there is no airflow yet. What then happens is the extra fuel ends up in the hands of gravity and falls back down the throat of the carb into the airbox. Do that four or five times as I've seen many folks do and you'll have quite a little nestegg of raw fuel sitting in the airbox just waiting for an ignition source - which will come if there is a backfire through the intake system. It won't be a little fire either! You might have a couple of ounces of fuel there - enough to do some serious damage to the intake and carb.

My personal opinion is that one should NEVER use the throttle to "prime" an engine and instructors shouldn't be teaching it either. In fact, they should be teaching that the PRIMER is the only way that should be considered when giving the engine a helping hand in starting. Every engine fire I've ever seen (and I've seen quite a few) resulted from pumping the throttle. It's literally the first thing I ask about and it's always the cause.

It pays to understand the fuel system in enough detail to understand where the primer gets its fuel from, where it delivers it to (how many cylinders), and how many priming shots it typically takes to get old Bessie to fire up.

Follow the POH/AFM checklist if you experience a fire but don't take too long about it. It's really a procedure you need to know wihout reference to a manual - you just won't have time to look it up without becoming part of the BBQ.

TIS
 
At the expense of listening to hugh whine once more, I've experienced a number of fires during ground operations and in flight, including engine, cabin, cockpit, wing, etc. I've flown through a lot of them, too, as part of regular employment.

In fact, if you claim to have any time behind radial engines and haven't ever had a fire, you've either spent the last few thousand hours deaf and blind, or you lied.

If you have a fire, don't analyze the fire. Don't try to guess at the cause or the circumstance. You need to have a general understanding of what's going on, but don't start guessing weather the carburetor, fuel flow divider, a fuel line, cracked cylinder, broken exhaust, etc, is the problem. Your only concern is making the fire go away.

The biggest danger from a fire is you. I've worked fires on the ground, instructures, in campers, in cars, trucks, homes. I've worked them in fields, on mountain sides, from the ground, and from the air. The most dangerous fire in the world, and the one that kills more people than any, is a grass fire...the one that would least impress you or cause you to think "danger." Which is precisely why it kills people...they don't take it seriously. It moves quickly, behaves unpredictably, and puts out more heat than people expect.

The biggest danger is you...how you react and what you do about it. People think fire, and people think panic. Almost as though the two go together, and that's not a good thing. A better line of thought is when you think fire, think soloution. Fast hands kill. I've had several folks attempt to shut down the wrong engine, also not a good thing. These folks felt that the fire was panic time, and that justified doing things very quickly...failing to realize that hands move faster than thought...which can make things worse, not better. A engine fire or cockpit fire isn't a good thing...but an engine fire or cockpit fire with an exta engine shut down isn't good either. It's worse.

Likewise, I can't count the number of flight instructors I've met who advocate making a beeline for the ground and executing a forced landing at the first sign of smoke. After all, ask any pilot what they were taught as the first justification for making an emergency descent and forced landing, and most will tell you it's a fire. No idea what they'll do once they reach the ground, assuming they survive the landing...and aren't trapped in the wreckage of an aircraft that's already burning. No thought for the fact that the fire rescue that might have been able to help them had they made a beeline for an airport, instead, is no longer nearby or able to help. No thought to the fact that ambulance services aren't readily available like they might be when landing on or near an airport.

Several priorities should become uppermost in your mind when experiencing any kind of fire in flight. The first should be flying the airplane and keeping control...no matter what is going on. That will always be your first priority. I've seen a lot of folks forget that over some relatively minor distractions in the cockpit, including bees, instruments, etc...a fire will certainly be a distraction, and you need to set it in your mind right now that it's not going to distract you from flying the airplane.

The next priority isn't beating feet to the ground for a dramatic forced landing and it certainly isn't making a radio call to tell everybody else about your drama. This is your immediate problem...not theirs. Your next priority is getting the fire out, or under control, and very simply the fire has three things needed to keep living. You want to kill it, and you want to take away at least one of those things.

The fire needs airflow. You're probably not going to smother that fire unless you have an adequate fire extinguishing system. If it's in the engine and you can hit it with a fire bottle or two, that's dandy. If it's in the cockpit, remember that you need air, too. Just like the fire. Remember that if you're using a halon cockpit extinguisher, that halon in contact with open flame becomes phosgene gas, which is extremely toxic, and very deadly. If you deprive the fire of air, get some for yourself.

Fires eat. As infants their requirements are modest, but as they grow up, they eat a whole lot more. A rule of thumb used in structure fires where plenty of food, or fuel, is available, is that the fire doubles in size every sixty seconds. The same fuel structure isn't available in the airplane, but other, more volatile fuels are, and coupled with the extreme amount of air flowing to the fire (compared to a structure or wildfire, an engine fire is a forced air fire...it can burn hot and fast, and grow a whole lot faster), it can grow quickly. The soloution to a fire with a diet problem is to curb the present diet. Starve it for a while. An engine fire is either fuel or oil. Not a whole lot else out there to burn. Shut off the fuel, if it's white smoke. If it's black, you may have an oil fire going, and that's a whole lot worse than a fuel fire. Oil fires go a little slower, but the fire lasts longer, doesn't go out as easily.

Start by pulling back the throttle or power lever or thust lever. If you're in a multi engine airplane, you're going to be doing this anyway to ensure you don't shut down the wrong engine eventually. But you might just put the fire out right then and there. Decreasing fuel flow can do a number of things, but may stop the fire. Or decrease it. See what happens. If it doesn't, your proceedures and probably going to tell you to shut it down. That's fine, follow your checklist. But do everything with a purpose, deliberately, and not in a big hurry. Remember...when you rush...that's when accidents happen. You may be a bigger threat to the safety of the flight than the fire.

Fuel fires don't last long when the fuel is shut off, but oil fires can go on for some time. Oil fires occur when a cylinder lifts and oil dumps onto a turbocharger in a tight cowl, or a fuel fire associated with a mechanical failure sets off an oil fire. Oil invariably needs to leave the engine under pressure, and the only way to stop that is to stop the engine. If it's a propeller driven airplane, shutting down the engine isn't enough, the propeller needs to be stopped. If you can't feather it, you may waste too much time trying to get the prop stopped, and that isn't good...whatever you elect to do given your circumstance, do it on the way to either an airport, forced landing site, or if you elect to get to the ground directly beneath you (also a forced landing site), do it on the way. Don't waste time trying to hold the nose up to get a prop stopped in the hopes of staving off the oil fire...it won't work.

Fires need air. Fires need food, or fuel. Fires need something to keep them alive, an ignition source. Many fires are fairly self-sustaining once born, but you still need to get rid of the ignition source. That may be as simple as turning off ignition. It may be as simple as pulling back the power...a cracked turbocharger or exhaust that's putting hot gas to something and causing a fire will cool faster with the power pulled back. Electrical fires need electricity for ignition...get rid of the electricity. You may still have a fire, but you don't have the reignition potential if you are able to control the fire. Get rid of the source. You may kill the fire, or you may just prevent it from coming back.

Continuing with more thoughts, due to length...
 
...continuing that thought...

You may feel some sense of security by knowing that a "firewall" is between you, and the fire. Don't. It's full of holes, where lines, cables, hoses, wires, pushrods, tubes, and other sundry items poke through. Every one is a path for smoke and fire. Don't assume that the firewill will stop anything...it won't. It may buy you a very short time, and you need that time getting to help while you fly the airplane and try to make the fire go away.

I had a cockpit fire once involving a large heater assembly that burst into flame. I had someone else fly, out of my seat, walked back to the heater assembly, manually shut off the fuel to it, and tossed my jacket over it. The fire went out, leaving only white smoke.

On that note, people think smoke is a sign of fire, but seldom realize that it isn't a byproduct of fire, it's the fuel. It's the smoke that's burning, not the fuel...the fuel vaporizes, and in the combustion process, if you can look close enough, it's that vaporized fuel, often seen as smoke, (which includes fuel and combustion byproducts) that's actually burning. A hot cockpit or engine compartment that's full of smoke is prime for reignition. If the ignition source still exists, especially in a cockpit, you're looking at a big flash fire potential if you ventillate. Kill that ignition source before you ventillate the smoke. Remember the movie back draft, when the explosions and fires occured when people opened doors? That's not exactly what's going on here...but it gives you the idea. Ventillating can alter the fuel air mixture to a stochiometric condition meaning that it's just prime for lighting off. Be careful.

In the case of the combustion heater that was burning, I shut off the fuel, extinguished the fire, and elimiinated the ignition. I opened an over head hatch, and as the aircraft was drafty enough to begin with, ventilated the airplane and then painfully froze for the remainder of the trip.

I'll leave it to hugh and the howler monkeys of the peanut gallery to tell you all about how to declare an emergency. That will make the fire go out faster, prevent you from getting burned, and make it a whole lot easier to breath in that toxic environment. --Don't neglect to request help to whatever extent you need, but don't sacrifice flying the airplane or dealing with the fire at the expense of talking on the radio. It's time to do, not talk. Do.

On the subject of the smoke, again...that's a whole lot more dangerous than the fire. Fire will burn you if it gets to you, but smoke gets to you faster, and will kill you faster, and just as painfully. Smoke will shut your eyes, taking your ability to fly the airplane away. It turns to hydrochloric acid in your mouth and mucus membranes, burning you from the inside out. It enters your blood stream through your lungs, poisoning you. It competes with the oxygen in the air for a chance to fill your lungs, it signifies less oxygen, and it often offers counterfiet oxygen...carbon monoxide that enters your bloodstream and adheres 240 times greater to the hemoglobin in your blood...meaning that if you do get oxygen later, it won't help, because it can't saturate your blood or be carried by the hemoglobin. Getting oxygen or breathable air early in the process is key to your survival. You may not ever have to worry about that fire if you breathe too much smoke.

Your first defense against inflight fires is a good preflight. If it's your aircraft or if you have the opportunity, this begins with maintenance, with the cowl off, with a close look at everything you can touch, see, smell, or hear. The sooty exhaust mark on the cowling is the engine's way of tell you about a leak. It's a tiny mark, but it may be all the warning you're going to get. Be careful. Poke your head up under the panel, look for chafing wiring. Look at fuel lines. Look for leaks of fuel or oil...again, it may be all you get. Some fires are caused by pilots, but most are mechanical failures, and these you can often prevent by close attention to detail during inspections and maintenance, and on the preflight inspection. Your instructor told you that you're looking for basic obvious things...yes, look for those, but look deeper, look for signs and whispers of things that could become other things.

If you do get that fire in flight, don't automatically be drawn to the spot of ground directly beneath you, but don't ignore it, either. Consider the circumstances at the time, and act accordingly. Planning for every circumstance isn't possible, but preparing yourself is. Fly safe.
 
avbug said:
If you do get that fire in flight, don't automatically be drawn to the spot of ground directly beneath you, but don't ignore it, either. Consider the circumstances at the time, and act accordingly. Planning for every circumstance isn't possible, but preparing yourself is. Fly safe.
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20001211X11010&ntsbno=CHI98FA349&akey=1

Good points...lack of following emergency proceedures is cited in the above NTSB report on a Barron crash, following a cabin fire.

NTSB said:
The Beech 58 Pilot's operating manual, under Section III, Emergency Procedures, states, under ELECTRICAL SMOKE OR FIRE, that the Battery and Alternator Switches are to be selected in the OFF position. Also, the operating manual indicates the emergency descent procedure stipulates the landing gear to be DOWN and the flaps be at APPROACH (15 degrees).

A Beech 58 flight training simulator was used with a State of Wisconsin Party Representative to the investigation, acting as pilot-in-command, who executed the emergency descent procedure in the Beech 58 Pilot's Operating Handbook. The emergency procedure states the landing gear to be down and the flaps to be at 15 degrees. An emergency descent from an altitude of 8,000 feet msl was performed in the simulator and a descent rate of approximately 6,200 feet per minute was obtained. A simulated off airport landing was completed in approximately 02:15 minutes.
 
TIS said:
Uhhh, not really.
TIS

ok if that is not true, i'll give you a situation.

I am in cruise, and have an engine fire... WHAT IS THE PROBLEM???

a)Fuel line broke
b)Oil pressure line broke
c)Electrical connection bad
d)Leaves in the cowl
e)Mechanic forgot to take out his rag after annual
f)None of the above
g)All of the above

When people say "enigine fire" they are normally saying a fire in the cowl. Not nessecarily the enigne being on fire.
 
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Milkdud99 said:
ok if that is not true, i'll give you a situation.

I am in cruise, and have an engine fire... WHAT IS THE PROBLEM???

a)Fuel line broke
b)Oil pressure line broke
c)Electrical connection bad
d)Leaves in the cowl
e)Mechanic forgot to take out his rag after annual
f)None of the above
g)All of the above

When people say "enigine fire" they are normally saying a fire in the cowl. Not nessecarily the enigne being on fire.

I knew some guys that used a Cessna 206 fuselage as a structure for a BBQ...these guys participate in the BBQ contests and I guess won quite a few.

I would imagine that would classify as a "cabin fire" and therefore would not be relevant to this topic.
 
Milkdud99 said:
ok if that is not true, i'll give you a situation.

I am in cruise, and have an engine fire... WHAT IS THE PROBLEM???

a)Fuel line broke
b)Oil pressure line broke
c)Electrical connection bad
d)Leaves in the cowl
e)Mechanic forgot to take out his rag after annual
f)None of the above
g)All of the above

When people say "enigine fire" they are normally saying a fire in the cowl. Not nessecarily the enigne being on fire.
Okay, I'll grant you that I wasn't thinking about inflight fire as the question also asked. However, I would point out that engines themselves don't burn, so it's always something surrounding the engine that's on fire - if it's an engine fire, that is.

Electrical fires are very different from engine related fires because they can be stopped by killing the electricity - most of the time. It's a tougher decision to do the same to stop an engine fire - killing the engine, that is.

Stuff left under the hood by mechanics should be caught on a pre-flight inspection - PERIOD! I don't care if it's all buttoned up tight, you should have a look at it before it gets that way or insist on undoing it so you CAN look. Stuff left by birds or a lot of wind in autumn should also be caught on preflight.

Never heard of an oil fire in a light piston but I suppose it's happened. Fuel fires I've heard of but are more common with fuel injection. Generally the cylinders don't gt hot enough to ignite gasoline (ign point 450-500). You can basically drop a lit cigarette on a puddle of gas and it won't light off.

Anyway, I see your point and I'd be you see mine.

TIS
 
Most engine fires I have seen/heard about have been during start on big radials. Keep cranking and try to get the engine started, this usually blows the fire out, then shut down and inspect for damage.
 
Nothing gets rampers running faster than a large radial engine shooting out flames and popping away on the freight ramp...at night! :eek: :D
 
TIS said:
Electrical fires are very different from engine related fires because they can be stopped by killing the electricity - most of the time.
TIS

i do see ur point, its funny how it is called an engine fire, but really the engine will probably never catch on fire, the only TRUE engine fire is when the metal catches fire... which i'll bet alot of money that its never happened with a recip... but most fires are caused by parts surrounding the engine (tell me if im wrong).

And ur comment about electrical fires is right on. A true electrical fire (class C)can be stopped by simply turning off the elecrticity. BUT if the electrical fire spreads to a solid or liquid substance fire (Class A or B) then simply shutting off the electricity will not work.

As far as oil, oil takes a ton of heat to combust. and if for some strange reason one should occur. bend over and pucker up! oil is insainly hard to extinguish.

anyway theres your lesson of the day from a FF! lol
 
Milkdud99 said:
As far as oil, oil takes a ton of heat to combust.
You must be thinking of BTU's..."ton" is an airconditioning and refrigeration unit of measure...

REFRIGERATION TON

The unit of measure for the amount of heat removed is known as the refrigeration ton. The capacity of a refrigeration unit is usually stated in refrigeration tons. The refrigeration ton is based on the cooling effect of 1 ton (2,000 pounds) of ice at 32°F melting in 24 hours. The latent heat of fusion of ice (or water) is 144 Btus. Therefore, the number of Btus required to melt 1 ton of ice is 144 x 2,000= 288,000. The standard refrigeration ton is defined as the transfer of 288,000 Btus in 24 hours. On an hourly basis, the refrigeration ton is 12,000 Btus per hour (288,000 divided by 24). The refrigeration ton is the standard unit of measure used to designate the heat-removal capacity of a refrigeration unit. It is not a measure of the ice-making capacity of a machine, since the amount of ice that can be made depends on the initial temperature of the water and other factors.​
 
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