Encore VS 400XP

[Diesel]

Wow it looks like smellycat really knows NJA. Even more he knows the history of 1108 and how it was the pilots motivationg, energy and big picture minded that built what we have today.

I'm sure NJW is bound to chime in somewhere here. I can't help that.

 

[tk855]

Thanks for the welcomes, but back to the original topic. Anything to say about the 400XP? Looks like the FMS is similar to what I'm used to. Do the NJA planes have three or four tubes? I know about the flameouts, spoilerons, internal lav. Is it a growing or shrinking fleet? Works hard? Training concerns? Areas it flies more than others? Anything you want to throw in there would be helpful.

Congrats and welcome to the 400XP fleet! Our 400's at NJA have 3 tubes, 4 weighs too much. Our fleet is around 25-26 airplanes currently with rumors that we will receive no more than that in the US. According to our CP, the decision will be made after the first of the year, but they are leaning towards no more than 25. You can work hard some days, but usually not. There are so many factors that affect the 400 and how hard you will work. First, it is extremely performance limited so they have to be picky about what type of mission it is sent on. Second, there are quite a few mx issues so you may spend an entire tour in LIT, FTY, VNY, SAT, TPA or any other Raytheon Service Center location. Generally, the 400 stays in a small geographic region but will also go all over. The longest trip I have done in a NJA 400 is SDL to IAD with a fuel stop in TUL. I am currently on day 6 of 7 and this is how the tour has went so far:

Day 1: Airline to LAX, find 2 mx issues and write up plane. Go to hotel.
Day 2: Show in LAX at 1100, sit hot spare until 1800. Ferry LAX to ABQ with a NJA crewmember in back in order to avoid an after midnight.
Day 3: Show at 1100, ferry ABQ to FSD then pax from FSD to BIS. Go to hotel at 2000.
Day 4: Show at 0800, ferry BIS to EGE, pax from EGE to HOU, ferry from HOU to JLN (Joplin, MO). Go to hotel at 2000
Day 5: Show at 0800, pax from JLN to APA, ferry from APA to STP, pax from STP to DPA, ferry from DPA to CMH. Go to hotel at 22:30 Eastern (show was Central time). AC goes into mx at CMH.
Day 6: Show at hotel 09:15.

Day 5 was an unusually long day for the 400, but we were dealing with mx issues and trying to figure out a plan of action.

I hope that helps you out a little bit. The 400 has a fantastic chief pilot and numerous great people in the program.

 

[Guitar Guy]

For 400A...

When I pick up a 400 trip (which is a lot) the customers usually say something to the effect of thankfully they didn't send another 400. I have been told that when they try to put a Encore/Ultra pax on the 400 is usually met with a statement of I willn't go on that plane.

To add to wanttofly's response, most of us in the Encore and Ultra fleets have flown a lot of recovery trips for the 400XP fleet here at NJA. And we've all seen brief sheets for owners that say "no 400XP". I can also add that I've steered at least a few owners and cardholders away from 400XP because it can't accomplish the sort of flights they want to undertake, despite what the salesman claimed.

In company recurrent this past October, I asked what the upgrade/downgrade order was for the small-cabin fleet. The answer I got was that Ultra is the bottom of the list, followed by the 400XP and then the Encore comes in above the 400XP. Put another way, NetJets views the 400XP as a downgrade from the Encore in terms of owners and cardholders.

And oh yeah, your right I would much rather have a nose gear fold up then a dual engine failure. And by the way, it is very tricky, have the nose gear on the ground before deploying the tr's. That is very tricky and takes a lot of skill.

I also like not having to worry about whether or not the truck or the fueler actually put Prist in with the fuel load.

 

[JustInfo]

I have also seen the notes about "do not put this owner on a 400 under any circumstance."

I've also seen a note on our 800 owners profile that says "Do not put this owner on a X under any circumstance, they consider it a downgrade."

Some of these people have their own reasons for what they like or don't like about the airplane they are on, some could be quite silly. I rode in the back of a 400 once, not a bad cabin to ride in if I was oblivious to the performance limitations.

 

[RNObased]

Yep it could not be the fact that it actually has a comfortable cabin (unlike the Encore) Even with the seat side tracked my head is on the ceiling. yeah, thats comfortable.

As far as a real biz jet, At least it could certify part 25 (Transport Category) unlike the mighty straight wing bud light can with jet engines on it. Snap crackle pop, all the way to altitude. Not to mention the mickey mouse windshield anti ice and the washboard ride, and constant vectors because it cant keep up with the real jets.

Oh yeah, do your t/r's just right or your nose gear may fold up. (See another thread about thrust reverser use)

Don't get defensive. I don't care if you like the silly thing or not. Fact it is a POS. Fact it can't do half the things a Ultra can do. Just because the POS has heated windows doesn't make it a real jet. Who care about the cabin, you can't fly very far in it anyway.

Defend it all you want, the thing is cheap, built poorly and is worthless in any sort of weather. Or you can just ignore the numbers, and fly it broke. I'm sure it is a great plane then.

 

[400A]

Don't get defensive. I don't care if you like the silly thing or not. Fact it is a POS. Fact it can't do half the things a Ultra can do. Just because the POS has heated windows doesn't make it a real jet. Who care about the cabin, you can't fly very far in it anyway.

Defend it all you want, the thing is cheap, built poorly and is worthless in any sort of weather. Or you can just ignore the numbers, and fly it broke. I'm sure it is a great plane then.

Fact: it is built far superior to the near jet.

Fact: I would far rather take it into the weather than the near jet. When the systems are run properly they work just fine. They also dont just fall out of the sky on short final for unknown reason. I have flown it in enery kind of weather for almost 7 years, and will continue to. I operate the systems properly and it has never failed me.

Fact: I do not fly it broken, in fact I have dispatched 2 years in a row 100% with no INOP items. I have never dispatched less than 98%.

Fact: it is built far stronger than the Near Jet. Tour both assembly lines, you will see the difference.

Fact: I can show you many charter passengers who choose it over the near jet. Including one of your Ultra owners.

You consider the 400 a POS, I consider the 560 a POS, and I know many people that agree. Both Pilots and passengers. Your opinion is just that, Opinion.

The person who started this thread asked for opinions on both aircraft. I gave him my opinion, and have been attacked for it.

I am curious how much time you have in it?

 

[JustInfo]

Just curious, 400A, how often do you fly it in and out of Mountain Airports? I think that is the killer at NJA trying to meet the climb gradients required. I am sure if the mountain airports are not used often then the plane performs pretty much as advertised.

 

[400A]

Just curious, 400A, how often do you fly it in and out of Mountain Airports? I think that is the killer at NJA trying to meet the climb gradients required. I am sure if the mountain airports are not used often then the plane performs pretty much as advertised.

We did MRF and RTN a good bit. DEN and ASE. That is admittedly not its strong point. The straight wing will perform better there. We do west coast a couple times per year and it 1 stops very comfotably.

That still does not make the airplane a POS. Each aircraft has its strong point.

I just don't understand why people trash planes they never flew. I answered the question because I have flown both. I gave my opinion strictly based on MY aircraft opinion. NOT Net Jets mission specific. That is why I stated that I was not a Net Jets Pilot. The passengers I flew in both liked the cabin, head room and flat floor of the beechjet far better than the 560.

 

[Diesel]

You might not fly it broken but if you fly it to the letter by the books you're not going anywhere... Thats a fact.

 

[400A]

You might not fly it broken but if you fly it to the letter by the books you're not going anywhere... Thats a fact.

I fly it by the books and dont have any problem. That is not a fact. Again opinion.

 

[BoilerUP]

Wouldn't it be entirely possible the 400XP is a perfectly good airplane in its market segment, it just wasn't designed for a 121-like ops tempo?

 

[400A]

Wouldn't it be entirely possible the 400XP is a perfectly good airplane in its market segment, it just wasn't designed for a 121-like ops tempo?

BINGO!!!

I also think that being a new type in the fleet, operators have to get used to it. They have been running Citations since the onset and know the airplane like the back of their hand. Both Maintenance and Pilots. Those who have run the Beechjet for years often feel the same.

 

[Diesel]

Its not the ops tempo. The things aren't breaking because they are built tough.

They can't complete any sort of segment because NJ pilots are actually opening up the books and realizing that with anti ice on the penalty can't get you the 3.3 at sea level. You also can't make the 3.3 on some days in summer.

MX has nothing to do with performance in this case.

 

[Guitar rocker]

We did MRF and RTN a good bit. DEN and ASE. That is admittedly not its strong point. The straight wing will perform better there. We do west coast a couple times per year and it 1 stops very comfotably.

That still does not make the airplane a POS. Each aircraft has its strong point.

I just don't understand why people trash planes they never flew. I answered the question because I have flown both. I gave my opinion strictly based on MY aircraft opinion. NOT Net Jets mission specific. That is why I stated that I was not a Net Jets Pilot. The passengers I flew in both liked the cabin, head room and flat floor of the beechjet far better than the 560.

400A, as you said, every plane has it's strong points. I have flown the 400XP along with many others here...and I dont think that it compares to the citations. Not to mention that the dual flame out issue raises an eyebrow too.

But, the cabin is nice and the sound system in it is nice too.

 

[willNOTfly4free]

Our 400's at NJA have 3 tubes, 4 weighs too much.

Just curious, how much do one of those tubes weigh?

 

[400A]

Just curious, how much do one of those tubes weigh?

My BOW is 11,000 lbs

 

[willNOTfly4free]

I was referring to an EFIS tube.

 

[Ultra Grump]

I'll take a 400xp with TCAS (and Collins avionics) over our Ultras without TCAS (and crappy Honeywell avionics) any day.

 

[HA25]

I absolutely loved the Encore... I had flown the 500, the V, the Ultra and then the Encore, and only the Encore was as refined as the X... I especially loved it's ground handling and taxing characteristics, as a result of the new main gear.

Landings too were a lot nicer as a result.. And Mach .755 all day long..

 

[Choppy]

One of the other issues that alot of people don't think about is how much each respective airplane will be worth after taking it from the factory and flying it for two years and 500 hours. I guarantee that the Citation will hold its value 100 times better. That should tell you something about the airplanes and how they are viewed on the open market!

 

[RNObased]

I am curious how much time you have in it?

More then enough to know. In fact enough to know that the jet is a worthless pile. Enough time to leave the jet at the first chance I got, because I don't consider it very safe. Flameouts with lame excuses from and lame fixes from Raytheon, is BS.

Enough time to know that if you actually fly the thing by the numbers, you aren't going any where.

Give it up, the Encore is twice the jet the 400 is and the Ultra is 1.5x the jet the 400 is.

 

[400A]

More then enough to know. In fact enough to know that the jet is a worthless pile. Enough time to leave the jet at the first chance I got, because I don't consider it very safe. Flameouts with lame excuses from and lame fixes from Raytheon, is BS.

Enough time to know that if you actually fly the thing by the numbers, you aren't going any where.

Give it up, the Encore is twice the jet the 400 is and the Ultra is 1.5x the jet the 400 is.

Just like I thought....0

If it is so unsafe, explain the fact that the only fatal 400 Accidents (the last time I checked) were CFIT. That really sounds unsafe to me. In fact most of the other accidends have been runway over runs by morons who can't manage a ref speed. Yep that sounds really unsafe to me.

Yes, it is much harder to slow down than the 560. Maybe that is what scares you so bad. Maybe that is all you can handle.

Why are you so offended that anyone would like the Beechjet? Your name calling and scare tactics are really professional. You have done nothing to answer the thread starters question other that act like the playground bully. Grow up! People are allowded to have a different opinion that you! If you don't have anything worthwile to say...SHUT UP!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Guitar Guy]

Just like I though....0

Actually, re-read RNObased's post. He says he's flown the plane:

More then enough to know. In fact enough to know that the jet is a worthless pile. Enough time to leave the jet at the first chance I got, because I don't consider it very safe.

By the way, I think you meant to say "thought" not "though".

 

[400A]

Actually, re-read RNObased's post. He says he's flown the plane:]

I saw what he said, I just do not believe him. It was a simple question of how much time he had in it and he could not answer it.

The fact that he was offended that someone was happy to have gotten the job told me volumes.

 

[Guitar Guy]

The fact that he was offended that someone was happy to have gotten the job told me volumes.

Where did RNObased say that he was offended that you got your job?

About all I've seen RNObased say is that the 400 is not a good-performing plane when flown by the limitations in the AFM and that based on his experience, he doesn't like the plane.

 

[400A]

Christ!! Looks like NJA is getting exactly the people in the door they want for the next contract fight.

Here. Not me, the thread starter.

 

[Guitar Guy]

Here. Not me, the thread starter.

RNObased's response was indeed directed towards the attitude of the thread starter and not you, which is what I thought you were inferring.

But you still haven't proven that RNObased hasn't flown the 400. And you still haven't disproven his position that the 400 doesn't perform well when flown by the book.

If you like the 400, then good for you. But look at some actual performance numbers and you'll see that the Encore can do things that the 400 cannot. There is a difference between opinion and fact.

 

[400A]

RNObased's response was indeed directed towards the attitude of the thread starter and not you, which is what I thought you were inferring.

But you still haven't proven that RNObased hasn't flown the 400. And you still haven't disproven his position that the 400 doesn't perform well when flown by the book.

If you like the 400, then good for you. But look at some actual performance numbers and you'll see that the Encore can do things that the 400 cannot. There is a difference between opinion and fact.

I never said that the encore could not do things the Beechjet can't. In fact, if you go back a couple of pages and read my response to the mountain airport question you will see that.. As well you and RNO based has accused every 400A/400XP pilot of violating FARS because you say you cant do ANYTHING if you fly it by the numbers. I always fly the aircraft by the numbers and do not have a problem. That is a bunch of crap and you know it. He has also done nothing to prove his point that it cant. Or that it is unsafe. He has also done nothing to prove to me that he has flown it, though he did say there was more room in the cockpit.

He also said who cares about Cabin..... Well, I do, because it is very important to the man that signs my paycheck. It matters to him, because at 6'2" his head is always on the ceiling of the 560, even when side tracked.

So the Encore can do a few things better than the 400....Wohooo... The lear 45XR will clean the encore's clock... so what, it does not make any of them a POS.

With the exception of the proline 21 aircraft, the 560's avionics are crap compared to the Beechjets. Not to mention the countless times I have been told to maintain 300 KTS or grater. No problem in the Beechjet, that equals an off course vector in the 560. I know that to be a fact.

 

[RTRHD]

OK guy here's the deal. They are both a POS ok, shhhhh don't tell anyone.

 

[RNObased]

Just like I thought....0

If it is so unsafe, explain the fact that the only 400 s (the last time I checked) were CFIT. That really sounds unsafe to me. In fact most of the other accidends have been runway over runs by morons who can't manage a ref speed. Yep that sounds really unsafe to me.

Yes, it is much harder to slow down than the 560. Maybe that is what scares you so bad. Maybe that is all you can handle.

Why are you so offended that anyone would like the Beechjet? Your name calling and scare tactics are really professional. You have done nothing to answer the thread starters question other that act like the playground bully. Grow up! People are allowded to have a different opinion that you! If you don't have anything worthwile to say...SHUT UP!!!!!!!!!!!

Man oh man. I need to grow up???. I have never told you to shut up. I just said love the thing I don't care, I know it is a pile. I have flown the silly thing.

I don't have my time down to the tenth of an hour, because I don't care that much. I would say somewhere around 500-600hrs, more then enough to know it is a joke of a jet. Unsafe refers to the repeated dual flameouts.

Now let's talk about professional tactics. Questioning my ability to slow down a jet, wow that is . The fact is I never had trouble in that regard, because it isn't that fast.

I have never said you can't have a different opionion then I have. I will type this out again for you. I don't really care if you like the jet. Make that the only jet you ever fly, I really don't care. Is that good enough for you??

BTW, I'm done responding to you. You are obviously a little too wrapped around the axle to see that I'm dealing with facts and you are basically calling me a liar. Have a good turkey day.