Encore VS 400XP

[Guitar rocker]

Thanks for the welcomes, but back to the original topic. Anything to say about the 400XP? Looks like the FMS is similar to what I'm used to. Do the NJA planes have three or four tubes? I know about the flameouts, spoilerons, internal lav. Is it a growing or shrinking fleet? Works hard? Training concerns? Areas it flies more than others? Anything you want to throw in there would be helpful.

In the most recent communique from Raytheon, you cant get your type in the 400 until you have successfully completed and passed a glider rating. This is a mandatory requirement now that is needed to even enroll in FSI for the 400.

 

[CA1900]

Zing!

:laugh:

 

[400A]

Because it is cheap. That is why. You will like the Beechjunk until you get to fly a real biz jet, and then you will realize what you have been missing all those years.

Yep it could not be the fact that it actually has a comfortable cabin (unlike the Encore) Even with the seat side tracked my head is on the ceiling. yeah, thats comfortable.

As far as a real biz jet, At least it could certify part 25 (Transport Category) unlike the mighty straight wing bud light can with jet engines on it. Snap crackle pop, all the way to altitude. Not to mention the mickey mouse windshield anti ice and the washboard ride, and constant vectors because it cant keep up with the real jets.

Oh yeah, do your t/r's just right or your nose gear may fold up. (See another thread about thrust reverser use)

 

[Guitar Guy]

As far as a real biz jet, At least it could certify part 25 (Transport Category) unlike the mighty straight wing bud light can with jet engines on it.

Interesting that you say that the Encore isn't certified to Part 25. My FSI training manual for the Encore says that the Encore is certified to CFR 14 Part 25. In fact, the Citation was first certified to Part 25 standards in 1972: http://cessna.com/story/milestones/1970s.chtml

 

[Choppy]

Excel is Part 25 also along with the 680 and the Ten!

 

[wanttofly]

Yep it could not be the fact that it actually has a comfortable cabin (unlike the Encore) Even with the seat side tracked my head is on the ceiling. yeah, thats comfortable.

As far as a real biz jet, At least it could certify part 25 (Transport Category) unlike the mighty straight wing bud light can with jet engines on it. Snap crackle pop, all the way to altitude. Not to mention the mickey mouse windshield anti ice and the washboard ride, and constant vectors because it cant keep up with the real jets.

Oh yeah, do your t/r's just right or your nose gear may fold up. (See another thread about thrust reverser use)

Must not have ever been in the Encore, they droped the seats lower in the tracks so that you have more head room than the Ultra. When I pick up a 400 trip (which is a lot) the customers usually say something to the effect of thankfully they didn't send another 400. I have been told that when they try to put a Encore/Ultra pax on the 400 is usually met with a statement of I willn't go on that plane. If I was a pax and had to fly from LAX to SFO for a day trip with no bags, the 400 would be a perfect plane.

And oh yeah, your right I would much rather have a nose gear fold up then a dual engine failure. And by the way, it is very tricky, have the nose gear on the ground before deploying the tr's. That is very tricky and takes a lot of skill.

Congrats and welcome aboard, it is a great company and with a very few exceptions, a great bunch of pilots.

 

[FLYLOW22]

The only way the 400XP could be considered an "introduction" airplane is by "introducing" the owner to the 400XP and then upsaling the owner to something larger following several dissapointing experiences on the Little Hawk (400XP).

 

[ozpilot]

The problem with the 400XP is that we expect too much from it. If you think of it as a King Air with jets it never fails to deliver.

 

[b350capt]

and whatever you do, don't blabbing about you being a hawker pilot....lol! that went over like a ton of bricks at options when the name changed.. anyways, good luck!

 

[Smellycat]

Company man?

Welcome aboard.

Divorce those words from your vernacular ASAP. That and, "I'm just happy to be flying a jet." are equally destructive mindsets to your W2 earnings. You
Welcome aboard dude.

Dont you know 172, loving your job and wanting to do right for a company you love are verboten in a union shop. You are supposed to be misrable! Do not even think about drinking coolaid, and learn how to complain with passion for goodness sakes! Do not be motivated, energetic, or company-minded.

All you need is your contract. Repeat these words while staring at your 1108 lanyard in the mirror. All you need is your union contract. You must not be a company man. All you need is netjetwife whispering in your ear in your dreams! Keep repeating 1108 1108 1108.

Oh, and wipe that smile off your face! Happiness is not permitted.

 

[Diesel]

Wow it looks like smellycat really knows NJA. Even more he knows the history of 1108 and how it was the pilots motivationg, energy and big picture minded that built what we have today.

I'm sure NJW is bound to chime in somewhere here. I can't help that.

 

[tk855]

Thanks for the welcomes, but back to the original topic. Anything to say about the 400XP? Looks like the FMS is similar to what I'm used to. Do the NJA planes have three or four tubes? I know about the flameouts, spoilerons, internal lav. Is it a growing or shrinking fleet? Works hard? Training concerns? Areas it flies more than others? Anything you want to throw in there would be helpful.

Congrats and welcome to the 400XP fleet! Our 400's at NJA have 3 tubes, 4 weighs too much. Our fleet is around 25-26 airplanes currently with rumors that we will receive no more than that in the US. According to our CP, the decision will be made after the first of the year, but they are leaning towards no more than 25. You can work hard some days, but usually not. There are so many factors that affect the 400 and how hard you will work. First, it is extremely performance limited so they have to be picky about what type of mission it is sent on. Second, there are quite a few mx issues so you may spend an entire tour in LIT, FTY, VNY, SAT, TPA or any other Raytheon Service Center location. Generally, the 400 stays in a small geographic region but will also go all over. The longest trip I have done in a NJA 400 is SDL to IAD with a fuel stop in TUL. I am currently on day 6 of 7 and this is how the tour has went so far:

Day 1: Airline to LAX, find 2 mx issues and write up plane. Go to hotel.
Day 2: Show in LAX at 1100, sit hot spare until 1800. Ferry LAX to ABQ with a NJA crewmember in back in order to avoid an after midnight.
Day 3: Show at 1100, ferry ABQ to FSD then pax from FSD to BIS. Go to hotel at 2000.
Day 4: Show at 0800, ferry BIS to EGE, pax from EGE to HOU, ferry from HOU to JLN (Joplin, MO). Go to hotel at 2000
Day 5: Show at 0800, pax from JLN to APA, ferry from APA to STP, pax from STP to DPA, ferry from DPA to CMH. Go to hotel at 22:30 Eastern (show was Central time). AC goes into mx at CMH.
Day 6: Show at hotel 09:15.

Day 5 was an unusually long day for the 400, but we were dealing with mx issues and trying to figure out a plan of action.

I hope that helps you out a little bit. The 400 has a fantastic chief pilot and numerous great people in the program.

 

[Guitar Guy]

For 400A...

When I pick up a 400 trip (which is a lot) the customers usually say something to the effect of thankfully they didn't send another 400. I have been told that when they try to put a Encore/Ultra pax on the 400 is usually met with a statement of I willn't go on that plane.

To add to wanttofly's response, most of us in the Encore and Ultra fleets have flown a lot of recovery trips for the 400XP fleet here at NJA. And we've all seen brief sheets for owners that say "no 400XP". I can also add that I've steered at least a few owners and cardholders away from 400XP because it can't accomplish the sort of flights they want to undertake, despite what the salesman claimed.

In company recurrent this past October, I asked what the upgrade/downgrade order was for the small-cabin fleet. The answer I got was that Ultra is the bottom of the list, followed by the 400XP and then the Encore comes in above the 400XP. Put another way, NetJets views the 400XP as a downgrade from the Encore in terms of owners and cardholders.

And oh yeah, your right I would much rather have a nose gear fold up then a dual engine failure. And by the way, it is very tricky, have the nose gear on the ground before deploying the tr's. That is very tricky and takes a lot of skill.

I also like not having to worry about whether or not the truck or the fueler actually put Prist in with the fuel load.

 

[JustInfo]

I have also seen the notes about "do not put this owner on a 400 under any circumstance."

I've also seen a note on our 800 owners profile that says "Do not put this owner on a X under any circumstance, they consider it a downgrade."

Some of these people have their own reasons for what they like or don't like about the airplane they are on, some could be quite silly. I rode in the back of a 400 once, not a bad cabin to ride in if I was oblivious to the performance limitations.

 

[RNObased]

Yep it could not be the fact that it actually has a comfortable cabin (unlike the Encore) Even with the seat side tracked my head is on the ceiling. yeah, thats comfortable.

As far as a real biz jet, At least it could certify part 25 (Transport Category) unlike the mighty straight wing bud light can with jet engines on it. Snap crackle pop, all the way to altitude. Not to mention the mickey mouse windshield anti ice and the washboard ride, and constant vectors because it cant keep up with the real jets.

Oh yeah, do your t/r's just right or your nose gear may fold up. (See another thread about thrust reverser use)

Don't get defensive. I don't care if you like the silly thing or not. Fact it is a POS. Fact it can't do half the things a Ultra can do. Just because the POS has heated windows doesn't make it a real jet. Who care about the cabin, you can't fly very far in it anyway.

Defend it all you want, the thing is cheap, built poorly and is worthless in any sort of weather. Or you can just ignore the numbers, and fly it broke. I'm sure it is a great plane then.

 

[400A]

Don't get defensive. I don't care if you like the silly thing or not. Fact it is a POS. Fact it can't do half the things a Ultra can do. Just because the POS has heated windows doesn't make it a real jet. Who care about the cabin, you can't fly very far in it anyway.

Defend it all you want, the thing is cheap, built poorly and is worthless in any sort of weather. Or you can just ignore the numbers, and fly it broke. I'm sure it is a great plane then.

Fact: it is built far superior to the near jet.

Fact: I would far rather take it into the weather than the near jet. When the systems are run properly they work just fine. They also dont just fall out of the sky on short final for unknown reason. I have flown it in enery kind of weather for almost 7 years, and will continue to. I operate the systems properly and it has never failed me.

Fact: I do not fly it broken, in fact I have dispatched 2 years in a row 100% with no INOP items. I have never dispatched less than 98%.

Fact: it is built far stronger than the Near Jet. Tour both assembly lines, you will see the difference.

Fact: I can show you many charter passengers who choose it over the near jet. Including one of your Ultra owners.

You consider the 400 a POS, I consider the 560 a POS, and I know many people that agree. Both Pilots and passengers. Your opinion is just that, Opinion.

The person who started this thread asked for opinions on both aircraft. I gave him my opinion, and have been attacked for it.

I am curious how much time you have in it?

 

[JustInfo]

Just curious, 400A, how often do you fly it in and out of Mountain Airports? I think that is the killer at NJA trying to meet the climb gradients required. I am sure if the mountain airports are not used often then the plane performs pretty much as advertised.

 

[400A]

Just curious, 400A, how often do you fly it in and out of Mountain Airports? I think that is the killer at NJA trying to meet the climb gradients required. I am sure if the mountain airports are not used often then the plane performs pretty much as advertised.

We did MRF and RTN a good bit. DEN and ASE. That is admittedly not its strong point. The straight wing will perform better there. We do west coast a couple times per year and it 1 stops very comfotably.

That still does not make the airplane a POS. Each aircraft has its strong point.

I just don't understand why people trash planes they never flew. I answered the question because I have flown both. I gave my opinion strictly based on MY aircraft opinion. NOT Net Jets mission specific. That is why I stated that I was not a Net Jets Pilot. The passengers I flew in both liked the cabin, head room and flat floor of the beechjet far better than the 560.

 

[Diesel]

You might not fly it broken but if you fly it to the letter by the books you're not going anywhere... Thats a fact.

 

[400A]

You might not fly it broken but if you fly it to the letter by the books you're not going anywhere... Thats a fact.

I fly it by the books and dont have any problem. That is not a fact. Again opinion.