Emirates possibly going with Direct Entry Captains

[Dumb Pilot]

The EU and the rest of the world is just a few years behind the US in the financial crisis. When they recover I predict more jobs and hiring in the airline industry as well...and I think some guys look ahead and see possibilities which may affect the applicant situation at EK. This has nothing to do with being more realistic or unrealistic...it has more to do with differing opinions (or assumptions as you put it) on how the economic recovery will pan out in this industry.

I don't think your assessment is correct, but if it is, you just made the best argument for the need of DEC's that I have read this far.

Senior FO's are only human and resent someone coming in and taking a command slot when they are equally qualified, sometimes more because of route experience. If you think you will be welcomed on property with open arms by your first officers, your wrong. The atmosphere will be professional but as a DEC you will be under a microscope from both the training department and the FO's you pissed off by line jumping them. Just as there is no CBA to protect us from DEC's, there is no CBA to protect a DEC's job either when you screw up on a very demanding route structure.

That is no different than any other company that hires DEC's it was the same for me and it was the same for the guys that joined EK as DEC's before, they adjusted and integrated themselves to the line and gained the respect of their collegues, just like you will if and when you decide to move along from EK because unless you will join an airline here in the US at the bottom of the pile, you too will seek a job as a DEC

 

[Varmint]

I don't think your assessment is correct, but if it is, you just made the best argument for the need of DEC's that I have read this far.

It may not be correct. Only time will tell. How that makes a case for hiring DEC's prior to upgrading the qualified bunch of FO's, already on property, who meet the command requirements is beyond me.

That is no different than any other company that hires DEC's it was the same for me and it was the same for the guys that joined EK as DEC's before, they adjusted and integrated themselves to the line and gained the respect of their collegues, just like you will if and when you decide to move along from EK because unless you will join an airline here in the US at the bottom of the pile, you too will seek a job as a DEC

I am not against DEC's. I am against them when you already have qualified guys who meet the same requirements on property. That has and always will be my argument. I don't plan on going anywhere anytime soon but if I have to, I will deal with that when it happens as there are too many variables (age, location, pay, QOL) to make a decision on future ventures.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

You posted this on Pprune

I can see it now. All you DEC applicants be forewarned. This company seems to change policies more than a normal person changes underwear with no rhyme or reason. You could very well QUIT your decent job and get hired as a "DEC" only to have it ripped out from under you for an "accelerated command" FO position only to have that degraded to normal FO status because the program is just a success.

The company has gone back on their statement that the DEC program was not a success stating on their recruitment website "have no plans to recruit DEC's in the future"......think it can't change for you at the drop of a hat? Think again.

Now you post here that you look at a company's integrity when you select a Job???? I also get paid on time and they respect the conditions of my contract, I also have no issues with my pay being incorrect, but that doesn't mean that I am blind to the fact that it is their train set, I'm not naive to think that they don't have the ability and legal right to change the rules whenever they feel like it, I know it because it is on the contract I signed, I'm sure your contract has language that allows them to do the same.
Besides, this doesn't mean that they are going to stop the upgrade program, they are just letting everyone know that if they need to, DEC's will be hired, they need to be able to have the flexibility to keep up with the expected growth.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

It may not be correct. Only time will tell. How that makes a case for hiring DEC's prior to upgrading the qualified bunch of FO's, already on property, who meet the command requirements is beyond me. .

You are speculating that in an eventual recovery of the economy their pool of applicants will dry up right? All they are doing is maintaining the option open, specially if your speculation as to the recovery of the US industry will materialize, but I suspect that applicants from all over the world will keep the staffed without too much problems, regardless of applicants from the US. like i said before, this will not stop the internal upgrades.

 

[Varmint]

You posted this on Pprune


Now you post here that you look at a company's integrity when you select a Job???? I also get paid on time and they respect the conditions of my contract, I also have no issues with my pay being incorrect, but that doesn't mean that I am blind to the fact that it is their train set, I'm not naive to think that they don't have the ability and legal right to change the rules whenever they feel like it, I know it because it is on the contract I signed, I'm sure your contract has language that allows them to do the same.
Besides, this doesn't mean that they are going to stop the upgrade program, they are just letting everyone know that if they need to, DEC's will be hired, they need to be able to have the flexibility to keep up with the expected growth.

You can keep discussing this all you want. There is nothing untrue about what I have said in either place. It may be their train set and they are going to do what they want but I can still have an opinion, just as you do. Hiring a DEC instead of upgrading a guy who is already here with equal time as the DEC candidate does is wrong. If you want to look at a lack of integrity among airline employers just look to the major US airlines who used every tool in the box, including bankruptcy, to get out of the promises they made to employees. Look how many times an upgrade award has been published and then rescinded at unionized carriers.

You may be looking at a DEC slot at EK....and I pissed you off by my comments, which I stand by. Is that the case? I don't by any means think there is anything wrong with the DEC program at ANA. There is a need because there are no FO's who have the experience to be upgraded.

Two different points of view, two different opinions. Your not going to change my opinion and I am not going to change yours. Enough said.

 

[Varmint]

You are speculating that in an eventual recovery of the economy their pool of applicants will dry up right? All they are doing is maintaining the option open, specially if your speculation as to the recovery of the US industry will materialize, but I suspect that applicants from all over the world will keep the staffed without too much problems, regardless of applicants from the US. like i said before, this will not stop the internal upgrades.

No, not necessarily. That would depend on what the company chooses to do regarding the remuneration/benefits package offered and the possibility of outstation basing in the future. Also, if they were to partner with ab initio training programs around the world (such as lufthansa's in arizona), that may also assist in staffing issues.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

You may be looking at a DEC slot at EK....and I pissed you off by my comments, which I stand by. Is that the case? I don't by any means think there is anything wrong with the DEC program at ANA. There is a need because there are no FO's who have the experience to be upgraded. .

I really don't know at what point I gave you the impression that I was in any way bothered by your comments, I'm not, all I'm saying is that you are looking at this as if EK was cancelling all upgrades of current F/O's and opting for DEC's and that is not the case, they will continue the upgrade program of current F/O's and leave the option of DEC's in case that there is a need, of course that I don't agree that current F/O's should be bypassed.
If I were interested on that option, I would be asking questions regarding the company, not expressing that you guys are taking this as if it was the end of the upgrade program, it isn't. Your interpretation of the upgrade program here is also wrong, they are upgrading our F/O's and hiring DEC's as the need arises, same thing EK will do.

 

[Varmint]

I really don't know at what point I gave you the impression that I was in any way bothered by your comments, I'm not, all I'm saying is that you are looking at this as if EK was cancelling all upgrades of current F/O's and opting for DEC's and that is not the case, they will continue the upgrade program of current F/O's and leave the option of DEC's in case that there is a need, of course that I don't agree that current F/O's should be bypassed.
If I were interested on that option, I would be asking questions regarding the company, not expressing that you guys are taking this as if it was the end of the upgrade program, it isn't. Your interpretation of the upgrade program here is also wrong, they are upgrading our F/O's and hiring DEC's as the need arises, same thing EK will do.

Its not the same.

The difference between the upgrade program here is that for existing FO's, EK requires 2500 hours of time at EK prior to upgrade. They do NOT require this for DEC's. For example:

A. Someone hired as an FO at EK in 2011 with 10000 hours, 4000 TPIC above 50 tonnes, would have to fly at EK for 2500 hours (3-3.5 years) prior to being eligible for upgrade.

B. DEC X applies to EK with 7000 hours and 3000 TPIC above 50 tonnes (the minimums) and gets the job....does not have to wait until 2014 or 2015 for the command slot although less experienced.

That is where my beef with the policy is. We have tons of guys who are in situation A on property right now. If the company is going to institute this DEC policy they should eliminate the 2500 hours of EK time for presently employed FO's first.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

I understand your position and see why this is such an emotional topic for you, guys that I know in the training department there tell me that it was inevitable because the pool of guys that have the minimums for upgrade is drying out and that the failure rate for upgrade F/O's have increased 40 to 50% in the last year, they saw no other option but to have the option open, that is where my point of view was coming from, but if there are tons of guys as you say that have those numbers instead on the dry spell the RTC's I've spoken to tell me, then I agree with you.

Anyway, interesting exchange and the best of luck to you guys at EK with all this growing pains, your contribution and that of TP and the other posters is well regarded.

 

[the turtle]

If I can add me 2 dirhams here my guess is the DEC interview will be much harder than back in 2008???? And the interview washout rate was 70%...or so I've heard. One of these new DEC's screw the pooch out there and everyone who came in contact with that guy is gonna wind up on AS or AAR's carpet, dancing. Nothing makes this company run like fear.

We've had some close shaves (MEL,ADD,LHR,etc) in the plane and a lot of F-ups on overnights....EK strikes me as reluctant to say the least to hand the keys to an FO whos been around for 4+ yrs....ahhhh does he have Command authority?-airmanship??? (WTF does that mean, anyway) their gonna hammer these DEC cats in the interview

Except, of course, the few chosen ones who have buddies in corporate