Emirates possibly going with Direct Entry Captains

[Varmint]

If anyone is considering joining Emirates as a First Officer, the company has decided to change the requirements for Direct Entry Captains....essentially lowering them. Depending on how many DEC's the company chooses to recruit, it could negatively impact your time to upgrade.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

This development has shaken the international arena, specially in the commuting contracts where some that are currently wide body captains might opt for moving at base, rather than commuting conditions of 6 weeks on and 2 weeks off. Interesting times

 

[dustrpilot]

This development has shaken the international arena, specially in the commuting contracts where some that are currently wide body captains might opt for moving at base, rather than commuting conditions of 6 weeks on and 2 weeks off. Interesting times

Shaken in a good way?

 

[Varmint]

Shaken in a good way?

Only to the guys who want to cut in front of current Emirates first officers who are equally qualified. The problem with Emirates new policy is that current FO's are required to have 2500 hours of time in Emirates to upgrade while the DEC requirements do not have that.

An EK fo with 7000 TT and 3000 PIC on aircraft greater than 50 tonnes would have to have the 2500 hours of Emirates time.......while an individual outside the company can be hired as a DEC with 7000TT and 3000PIC on aircraft greater than 50 tonnes without the Emirates time requirement. It is essentially stealing money from FO's currently on property who meet the DEC required minimums.

If someone chooses to come in as a DEC they will be at the bottom of the list for bidding purposes in their bidding group for a LOOONNNNGGGG time because any FO's on property upgrading in front of you will cut in front of you on the Capt seniority list when upgraded. This will mean A LOT of night turns to india and the crap trips nobody else wants for a considerable amount of time. In some ways, that is good for current FO's when they upgrade because they will get out of doing the crap trips.

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

I dont think that 4k hour pilots getting hired now are being effected much, since they dont have the mins to upgrade anyways. Those on property for 3-4 years are the ones getting screwed. Im sure there are many current fos at ek that are on the fence as to whether stay or leave. This development may have just made up their minds for them. Might actually have a negative impact on staffing the company.

 

[earhart]

Caution- NOT a useful comment...

I once had a 'direct entry' Captain.

And almost immediate exit........

 

[Varmint]

I dont think that 4k hour pilots getting hired now are being effected much, since they dont have the mins to upgrade anyways. Those on property for 3-4 years are the ones getting screwed. Im sure there are many current fos at ek that are on the fence as to whether stay or leave. This development may have just made their minds for them. Might actually have a negative impact on staffing the company.

I agree...and in thinking more about the situation...Future DEC applicants be warned. You may very well be promised a DEC position, quit your job, then arrive only to find that the company has changed the terms again and halted the DEC program so they offer you an FO position. Then what are you gonna do?

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

Something else to keep in mind. The current upgrade policy at EK (not strictly seniority based) is a new concept for western pilots. Many new hire applicants are already a bit skeptical. Watching currents EK fo's getting line jumped to captain seat only adds to the uncertainty. "Are they hiring me as a career fo"? is question some may be now asking. This may actually dry up the fo applicant pool. It's going to be interesting to watch.

 

[filejw]

Guys this is the Middle East and the people have been horse trading for thousands of years, they will do whats necessary for them .Don't expect them to change.

 

[twott driver]

If you have the requirements (even possibly excluding the 1000pic) to get hired by a major in the US in the next 3 years, it may be wise to stick around and wait it out. US airlines are going to be hiring everyone and his dog over the next few years. If you want out and don't think you'll get on with a major, well then EK may be a good move.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Shaken in a good way?

I believe this will have a positive effect in other areas as conditions may be improved so to prevent wide body experienced captains to jump ship.
It is regrettable that this has happened for sure but it is not the first time, EK has a history of taking DEC's and this has neither prevented people from applying due to the low quality of their bidding nor they experienced an exodus of F/O's as a result. One feels bad for the guys currently on property but this development was hardly unexpected with the rate of growth that EK is experiencing.

 

[Varmint]

I believe this will have a positive effect in other areas as conditions may be improved so to prevent wide body experienced captains to jump ship.
It is regrettable that this has happened for sure but it is not the first time, EK has a history of taking DEC's and this has neither prevented people from applying due to the low quality of their bidding nor they experienced an exodus of F/O's as a result. One feels bad for the guys currently on property but this development was hardly unexpected with the rate of growth that EK is experiencing.

I agree that this is a positive sign for the international flying arena. However, times are different now and I believe that the possibility of a job at home within the next couple of years will trump someone coming to EK if they think there is any possibility of getting screwed in the process. It has nothing to do with feeling bad for guys on the property it has to do with the honesty and integrity of the company. They made the statement that the DEC program was a failure in the past and that there was no intention of hiring DEC's in the future. Then they change the rules, just as they will do in the face of some unsuspecting DEC applicant.

The rate of growth EK is experiencing can be covered by current FO's on property. This is purely a monetary decision from the top bean counters to save money and training cycles for the company.

 

[sniper]

Guys this is the Middle East and the people have been horse trading for thousands of years, they will do whats necessary for them .Don't expect them to change.

Sooooooooooooooooooooooo correct......

 

[sniper]

I agree that this is a positive sign for the international flying arena. However, times are different now and I believe that the possibility of a job at home within the next couple of years will trump someone coming to EK if they think there is any possibility of getting screwed in the process. It has nothing to do with feeling bad for guys on the property it has to do with the honesty and integrity of the company. They made the statement that the DEC program was a failure in the past and that there was no intention of hiring DEC's in the future. Then they change the rules, just as they will do in the face of some unsuspecting DEC applicant.

The rate of growth EK is experiencing can be covered by current FO's on property. This is purely a monetary decision from the top bean counters to save money and training cycles for the company.

Honesty and Integrity from the arabs...Are you kidding me...Never. Read a little history outside aviation

 

[Varmint]

Honesty and Integrity from the arabs...Are you kidding me...Never. Read a little history outside aviation

Did you get your pointy white hood and gown starched today?

 

[BornAgainPagan]

Unless there is some kind of CBA (which most of us know can't happen in the sandbox), there's no call for whining from more senior FO's. Every one of them knew from the start that Emirates, et al, hires DEC's from time to time. It is well known beforehand that management can adjust the policies on a whim. DEC's should be as welcomed as any new-hire.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

I agree that this is a positive sign for the international flying arena. However, times are different now and I believe that the possibility of a job at home within the next couple of years will trump someone coming to EK if they think there is any possibility of getting screwed in the process. It has nothing to do with feeling bad for guys on the property it has to do with the honesty and integrity of the company. They made the statement that the DEC program was a failure in the past and that there was no intention of hiring DEC's in the future. Then they change the rules, just as they will do in the face of some unsuspecting DEC applicant.

The rate of growth EK is experiencing can be covered by current FO's on property. This is purely a monetary decision from the top bean counters to save money and training cycles for the company.

You are making very large assumptions here, first you are speculating that there will be a recovery of the US industry within a couple of years that will create enough movement to trump applicants from the US, that is wildly speculative given the current status of the industry, second you are assuming that the pilots from the US market are the ones supplying EK with new hires, they receive applicants from all over the world and right now the situation in the EU is such that they will keep a pile of applicants regardless of this development, nobody looks at the honesty of a company as a criteria for application, if you did, you wouldn't send your application anywhere, look at what is going on at US Air, American, Qantas, what company you know that keeps their word? I don't know of any and that haven't prevented people from applying there. Sorry but there will be no slowing down of applicants at EK because of this and neither will it be an exudus of F/O's as some have predicted, it didn't happen in the past and it will not happen now, I understand your feelings against this policy, but you analysis of its consequences is unrealistic and based in the ideology of how things should be, not in the reality of this industry.

 

[Varmint]

You are making very large assumptions here, first you are speculating that there will be a recovery of the US industry within a couple of years that will create enough movement to trump applicants from the US, that is wildly speculative given the current status of the industry, second you are assuming that the pilots from the US market are the ones supplying EK with new hires, they receive applicants from all over the world and right now the situation in the EU is such that they will keep a pile of applicants regardless of this development, nobody looks at the honesty of a company as a criteria for application, if you did, you wouldn't send your application anywhere, look at what is going on at US Air, American, Qantas, what company you know that keeps their word? I don't know of any and that haven't prevented people from applying there. Sorry but there will be no slowing down of applicants at EK because of this and neither will it be an exudus of F/O's as some have predicted, it didn't happen in the past and it will not happen now, I understand your feelings against this policy, but you analysis of its consequences is unrealistic and based in the ideology of how things should be, not in the reality of this industry.

I am not really making an assumption of growth in the US as I am counting more on the retirement age not being raised and mega retirements starting at most US carriers within the next couple of years. The largest group of pilots at EK are Americans.

Yes, I do look at honesty and integrity in a company. I look if the company pays on time, puts rosters out on time, tries to cheat the employees on pay, etc. I have not had any issues with any of those here and never had to submit a pay query like I used to have to do every paycheck with my old company. There is a difference between honesty and integrity and a company doing what they need to do to operate such as what is happening at ANA with NO qualified FO's on property so DEC's must be hired but on a contract basis. There are plenty of guys who meet the published DEC minimums on property here at EK...therefore there is not a need operationally.

The EU and the rest of the world is just a few years behind the US in the financial crisis. When they recover I predict more jobs and hiring in the airline industry as well...and I think some guys look ahead and see possibilities which may affect the applicant situation at EK. This has nothing to do with being more realistic or unrealistic...it has more to do with differing opinions (or assumptions as you put it) on how the economic recovery will pan out in this industry.

 

[Varmint]

Unless there is some kind of CBA (which most of us know can't happen in the sandbox), there's no call for whining from more senior FO's. Every one of them knew from the start that Emirates, et al, hires DEC's from time to time. It is well known beforehand that management can adjust the policies on a whim. DEC's should be as welcomed as any new-hire.

Senior FO's are only human and resent someone coming in and taking a command slot when they are equally qualified, sometimes more because of route experience. If you think you will be welcomed on property with open arms by your first officers, your wrong. The atmosphere will be professional but as a DEC you will be under a microscope from both the training department and the FO's you pissed off by line jumping them. Just as there is no CBA to protect us from DEC's, there is no CBA to protect a DEC's job either when you screw up on a very demanding route structure.

 

[Varmint]

In looking again at the recruitment website they have not put a vacancy out for DEC's as of yet. I am cautiously optimistic that this was only a revision to the required minimums and not a formal announcement as the bulletin was not really clear on that. Time will tell.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

The EU and the rest of the world is just a few years behind the US in the financial crisis. When they recover I predict more jobs and hiring in the airline industry as well...and I think some guys look ahead and see possibilities which may affect the applicant situation at EK. This has nothing to do with being more realistic or unrealistic...it has more to do with differing opinions (or assumptions as you put it) on how the economic recovery will pan out in this industry.

I don't think your assessment is correct, but if it is, you just made the best argument for the need of DEC's that I have read this far.

Senior FO's are only human and resent someone coming in and taking a command slot when they are equally qualified, sometimes more because of route experience. If you think you will be welcomed on property with open arms by your first officers, your wrong. The atmosphere will be professional but as a DEC you will be under a microscope from both the training department and the FO's you pissed off by line jumping them. Just as there is no CBA to protect us from DEC's, there is no CBA to protect a DEC's job either when you screw up on a very demanding route structure.

That is no different than any other company that hires DEC's it was the same for me and it was the same for the guys that joined EK as DEC's before, they adjusted and integrated themselves to the line and gained the respect of their collegues, just like you will if and when you decide to move along from EK because unless you will join an airline here in the US at the bottom of the pile, you too will seek a job as a DEC

 

[Varmint]

I don't think your assessment is correct, but if it is, you just made the best argument for the need of DEC's that I have read this far.

It may not be correct. Only time will tell. How that makes a case for hiring DEC's prior to upgrading the qualified bunch of FO's, already on property, who meet the command requirements is beyond me.

That is no different than any other company that hires DEC's it was the same for me and it was the same for the guys that joined EK as DEC's before, they adjusted and integrated themselves to the line and gained the respect of their collegues, just like you will if and when you decide to move along from EK because unless you will join an airline here in the US at the bottom of the pile, you too will seek a job as a DEC

I am not against DEC's. I am against them when you already have qualified guys who meet the same requirements on property. That has and always will be my argument. I don't plan on going anywhere anytime soon but if I have to, I will deal with that when it happens as there are too many variables (age, location, pay, QOL) to make a decision on future ventures.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

You posted this on Pprune

I can see it now. All you DEC applicants be forewarned. This company seems to change policies more than a normal person changes underwear with no rhyme or reason. You could very well QUIT your decent job and get hired as a "DEC" only to have it ripped out from under you for an "accelerated command" FO position only to have that degraded to normal FO status because the program is just a success.

The company has gone back on their statement that the DEC program was not a success stating on their recruitment website "have no plans to recruit DEC's in the future"......think it can't change for you at the drop of a hat? Think again.

Now you post here that you look at a company's integrity when you select a Job???? I also get paid on time and they respect the conditions of my contract, I also have no issues with my pay being incorrect, but that doesn't mean that I am blind to the fact that it is their train set, I'm not naive to think that they don't have the ability and legal right to change the rules whenever they feel like it, I know it because it is on the contract I signed, I'm sure your contract has language that allows them to do the same.
Besides, this doesn't mean that they are going to stop the upgrade program, they are just letting everyone know that if they need to, DEC's will be hired, they need to be able to have the flexibility to keep up with the expected growth.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

It may not be correct. Only time will tell. How that makes a case for hiring DEC's prior to upgrading the qualified bunch of FO's, already on property, who meet the command requirements is beyond me. .

You are speculating that in an eventual recovery of the economy their pool of applicants will dry up right? All they are doing is maintaining the option open, specially if your speculation as to the recovery of the US industry will materialize, but I suspect that applicants from all over the world will keep the staffed without too much problems, regardless of applicants from the US. like i said before, this will not stop the internal upgrades.

 

[Varmint]

You posted this on Pprune


Now you post here that you look at a company's integrity when you select a Job???? I also get paid on time and they respect the conditions of my contract, I also have no issues with my pay being incorrect, but that doesn't mean that I am blind to the fact that it is their train set, I'm not naive to think that they don't have the ability and legal right to change the rules whenever they feel like it, I know it because it is on the contract I signed, I'm sure your contract has language that allows them to do the same.
Besides, this doesn't mean that they are going to stop the upgrade program, they are just letting everyone know that if they need to, DEC's will be hired, they need to be able to have the flexibility to keep up with the expected growth.

You can keep discussing this all you want. There is nothing untrue about what I have said in either place. It may be their train set and they are going to do what they want but I can still have an opinion, just as you do. Hiring a DEC instead of upgrading a guy who is already here with equal time as the DEC candidate does is wrong. If you want to look at a lack of integrity among airline employers just look to the major US airlines who used every tool in the box, including bankruptcy, to get out of the promises they made to employees. Look how many times an upgrade award has been published and then rescinded at unionized carriers.

You may be looking at a DEC slot at EK....and I pissed you off by my comments, which I stand by. Is that the case? I don't by any means think there is anything wrong with the DEC program at ANA. There is a need because there are no FO's who have the experience to be upgraded.

Two different points of view, two different opinions. Your not going to change my opinion and I am not going to change yours. Enough said.

 

[Varmint]

You are speculating that in an eventual recovery of the economy their pool of applicants will dry up right? All they are doing is maintaining the option open, specially if your speculation as to the recovery of the US industry will materialize, but I suspect that applicants from all over the world will keep the staffed without too much problems, regardless of applicants from the US. like i said before, this will not stop the internal upgrades.

No, not necessarily. That would depend on what the company chooses to do regarding the remuneration/benefits package offered and the possibility of outstation basing in the future. Also, if they were to partner with ab initio training programs around the world (such as lufthansa's in arizona), that may also assist in staffing issues.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

You may be looking at a DEC slot at EK....and I pissed you off by my comments, which I stand by. Is that the case? I don't by any means think there is anything wrong with the DEC program at ANA. There is a need because there are no FO's who have the experience to be upgraded. .

I really don't know at what point I gave you the impression that I was in any way bothered by your comments, I'm not, all I'm saying is that you are looking at this as if EK was cancelling all upgrades of current F/O's and opting for DEC's and that is not the case, they will continue the upgrade program of current F/O's and leave the option of DEC's in case that there is a need, of course that I don't agree that current F/O's should be bypassed.
If I were interested on that option, I would be asking questions regarding the company, not expressing that you guys are taking this as if it was the end of the upgrade program, it isn't. Your interpretation of the upgrade program here is also wrong, they are upgrading our F/O's and hiring DEC's as the need arises, same thing EK will do.

 

[Varmint]

I really don't know at what point I gave you the impression that I was in any way bothered by your comments, I'm not, all I'm saying is that you are looking at this as if EK was cancelling all upgrades of current F/O's and opting for DEC's and that is not the case, they will continue the upgrade program of current F/O's and leave the option of DEC's in case that there is a need, of course that I don't agree that current F/O's should be bypassed.
If I were interested on that option, I would be asking questions regarding the company, not expressing that you guys are taking this as if it was the end of the upgrade program, it isn't. Your interpretation of the upgrade program here is also wrong, they are upgrading our F/O's and hiring DEC's as the need arises, same thing EK will do.

Its not the same.

The difference between the upgrade program here is that for existing FO's, EK requires 2500 hours of time at EK prior to upgrade. They do NOT require this for DEC's. For example:

A. Someone hired as an FO at EK in 2011 with 10000 hours, 4000 TPIC above 50 tonnes, would have to fly at EK for 2500 hours (3-3.5 years) prior to being eligible for upgrade.

B. DEC X applies to EK with 7000 hours and 3000 TPIC above 50 tonnes (the minimums) and gets the job....does not have to wait until 2014 or 2015 for the command slot although less experienced.

That is where my beef with the policy is. We have tons of guys who are in situation A on property right now. If the company is going to institute this DEC policy they should eliminate the 2500 hours of EK time for presently employed FO's first.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

I understand your position and see why this is such an emotional topic for you, guys that I know in the training department there tell me that it was inevitable because the pool of guys that have the minimums for upgrade is drying out and that the failure rate for upgrade F/O's have increased 40 to 50% in the last year, they saw no other option but to have the option open, that is where my point of view was coming from, but if there are tons of guys as you say that have those numbers instead on the dry spell the RTC's I've spoken to tell me, then I agree with you.

Anyway, interesting exchange and the best of luck to you guys at EK with all this growing pains, your contribution and that of TP and the other posters is well regarded.

 

[the turtle]

If I can add me 2 dirhams here my guess is the DEC interview will be much harder than back in 2008???? And the interview washout rate was 70%...or so I've heard. One of these new DEC's screw the pooch out there and everyone who came in contact with that guy is gonna wind up on AS or AAR's carpet, dancing. Nothing makes this company run like fear.

We've had some close shaves (MEL,ADD,LHR,etc) in the plane and a lot of F-ups on overnights....EK strikes me as reluctant to say the least to hand the keys to an FO whos been around for 4+ yrs....ahhhh does he have Command authority?-airmanship??? (WTF does that mean, anyway) their gonna hammer these DEC cats in the interview

Except, of course, the few chosen ones who have buddies in corporate