Eclipse Mentor Program PFT

[CorpLearDriver]

I'm not claiming to be great - but it's unbelievable what I've seen since flying 91/135. So much so that I'll NEVER put my family on a chartered jet, EVER (unless I'm flying). I'm not claiming that every 91/135 sucks so bad either.

From you first comments AZ, I would be tempted never to let you in my cockpit with an attitude like that. I hope you never get furloughed because an attitude like that follows a fellow and you might find it difficult to stay current on the outside one day.

As to the PFT bit and having been a contract pilot for a short time in the past, a large percentage of ICPs pay for their own training because they see it as a business expense or an investment. I know of at least one who has gone out and got their own CL30 type recently for such a purpose. It is a speculative investment and one that can only be made after fully evaluating the risks and expected rewards. Often, the payoff isn't what was expected. And, it isn't for everyone.

 

[bafanguy]

There's no question that most 121 operations are "competent". It's also no secret that 2-pilot corporate/business part 91 operations run head to head with the 121 guys in the safety statistics each year. But that is to be expected. Where the statistics start heading down hill is when you blend 135 operations into the mix. Our friend specifically mentioned 91/135 operations and although I could see his point, that is even wrong - I know way too many competent 135 guys and gals out there who are as proficient as they come.

I was late and I was tired. I think that I'm going to lay down for a while.

'Sled

'Sled,

Just joshin' ya...

 

[AZ Typed]

Sumperfido:
Lead Sled:
King Air:

I appreciate the comments. I guess it's alright to come back with your $.02 of advice that doesn't relate to my question at all. Lead Sled aside (he seems to know what he's talking about usually) you're just adding fuel to the fire. So...

I appreciate the comments - but you still haven't answered my original question: don't you think the requirements to be a E pilot mentor are a smidge out of line?

 

[AZ Typed]

From you first comments AZ, I would be tempted never to let you in my cockpit with an attitude like that. I hope you never get furloughed because an attitude like that follows a fellow and you might find it difficult to stay current on the outside one day.

CorpLearDriver: I don't understand your response at all. The fact that I don't believe 91 or 135 is a place I'd put my family gives me a bad attitude? Uh - can you please clarify that? And by the way - I played the furlough game, too. Appearantly I don't have too bad of an attitude because I literally went from the furlough into a sweet 91/135 gig that I really enjoy, and I wasn't even looking for it. It came to me. So again - can you make some sense out of your response for me?

AZT

 

[AZ Typed]

Good training critical to the success...

well, then Eclipse should underwrite this program. Simple as that. By making it PFT, the company already has lowered the bar, and wil likely attract that lower form of life.

that's not the kind of babysitter you want.

Hire or contract out to professional pilots that have operated in the environment you are going to have them "mentor in" and you'll have a better chance of coming away with competent pilots.

Agreed.

 

[AZ Typed]

AZT,
Having been a captain in both the 121 and 91 world I'll take a trip with a 91 guy that has been around the block any day of the week over a trip to the NE corridor with a 700 or 800 hr wunder child in an RJ. I agree the standardization is great at 121 carriers (my exp. is limited to the regional operators), and my hat is off to the guys in the trng depts but gimmie a friggin break with the high and mighty $hit. It takes more than an AFM and QRH to develop into an experienced professional.

Almost forgot, I do agree with you about the Eclispe thing. Have a nice weekend

Mercury,

Everybody always falls back to the 800 hour wonder flying an RJ around. Give me a break - how many of these kids are there, really? And of these, they have 800 hours - so who would insure them in anything outside of a 121 RJ anyways?

With that said, the 121 guys have been through a structured program that teaches procedures in the IFR system - exactly where the eclipse will be operating a lot (I imagine). The 135/91 guys have been to Flight Saftey or Simulflight - a far cry from the standards of 121. Not to mention the total lack of CRM taught (I can't vouge personally for Simuflight - just listen to good friends who've atteneded). It's the decision making skills that will determine if a eclipse pilot can make it in the machine. The 91/135 world just lacks in teaching and supporting this philosophy in the cockpit. I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I am saying it's lacking - a lot.

And I'm not sure where you're getting the "high & mighty *#&$" from. I never said that 121 is "high and mighty." at all. What I did say is the 121 pilot is typically trained better in how to operate in the environment that the eclipse will be operating under. Granted, the 121 guy doesn't go into BFE airport - but the 121 guy is taught the decision making skills to successfully complete such a mission. This is why 20,000 hour ATPs crash - the decision making was incorrect. It's the same reason 20 hour students crash - the decision making was flawd. My dig is that 91/135 just does't have the experience/background/research to teach and support this critical "experience" and decision making skills that lead to safe flights. Again, it's there...it's just weak.

So - my problem is that an eclipse mentor pilot has to have 3000 of jet PIC. My concern is getting the cockpit nazi, clueless as to IFR procedures as it is, in the right seat of an eclipse with his doctor client in the left seat. And this is safer than a 10 year US Air FO who also sits in the box, but lacks the jet PIC time. It's not - and that's my problem. The requirements to be an eclipse mentor pilot are out of line with what they are trying to achieve - safe owner operators. They aren't TOTALLY out of line, just not ideal for the ultimate goal - safe turbine trasistion pilots.

now I give up - go ahead and tell me how stupid I am

AZT

 

[Tommy Boy]

OK, I'll take the bait. AZ dork.


Like the 15,000 hr 121 guru, who always reminded me he had more heavy time than I had total time, said when we lost all oil pressure on #2 ...Ahhhhh, I'll call the company and see what they want us to do...."

When the eclipse pilot is all by himself and something goes wrong, he is going to need to know how to take charge of the situation and save his azz. Sorry but PIC time DOES count for something there.

And further more, where you train and build time does not determine what kind of a pilot you are. That's all about what kind of a person you are and how you choose to live your life. If there was a perfect place to train we would all go that route.

There's an old saying..till you've walked a mile in my shoes.....

 

[On Your Six]

Mercury,

Everybody always falls back to the 800 hour wonder flying an RJ around. Give me a break - how many of these kids are there, really? And of these, they have 800 hours - so who would insure them in anything outside of a 121 RJ anyways?

With that said, the 121 guys have been through a structured program that teaches procedures in the IFR system - exactly where the eclipse will be operating a lot (I imagine). The 135/91 guys have been to Flight Saftey or Simulflight - a far cry from the standards of 121. Not to mention the total lack of CRM taught (I can't vouge personally for Simuflight - just listen to good friends who've atteneded). It's the decision making skills that will determine if a eclipse pilot can make it in the machine. The 91/135 world just lacks in teaching and supporting this philosophy in the cockpit. I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I am saying it's lacking - a lot.

And I'm not sure where you're getting the "high & mighty *#&$" from. I never said that 121 is "high and mighty." at all. What I did say is the 121 pilot is typically trained better in how to operate in the environment that the eclipse will be operating under. Granted, the 121 guy doesn't go into BFE airport - but the 121 guy is taught the decision making skills to successfully complete such a mission. This is why 20,000 hour ATPs crash - the decision making was incorrect. It's the same reason 20 hour students crash - the decision making was flawd. My dig is that 91/135 just does't have the experience/background/research to teach and support this critical "experience" and decision making skills that lead to safe flights. Again, it's there...it's just weak.

So - my problem is that an eclipse mentor pilot has to have 3000 of jet PIC. My concern is getting the cockpit nazi, clueless as to IFR procedures as it is, in the right seat of an eclipse with his doctor client in the left seat. And this is safer than a 10 year US Air FO who also sits in the box, but lacks the jet PIC time. It's not - and that's my problem. The requirements to be an eclipse mentor pilot are out of line with what they are trying to achieve - safe owner operators. They aren't TOTALLY out of line, just not ideal for the ultimate goal - safe turbine trasistion pilots.

now I give up - go ahead and tell me how stupid I am

AZT

AZT,

Like you, I am furloughed and now flying Part 91. My suggestion on these boards is to ignore other peoples' comments when they don't match yours and not add fuel to the fire - just some helpful advice.

 

[filejw]

Thank guys ,Just looking some thing to do beside golf and ski.JW

 

[Mercury]

azt,
1) I never once refered to you as stupid in my post.
2) As for the high and mighty stuff, I believe your post said that everyone you've flown with outside of 121 has been 2nd rate.
3) If you take the time to re-read my comments, the last line says that I agree with you on the Eclipse thing. You are correct it "is the decision making skills"
4) As for 91/135 not having the "experience/background/research to teach this decision making..." All i can say is that not all 91 departments are created equal. They run the gambit from top notch Fortune 100 operators to the nickle and dime types that make you pack your own lunch. Please do not lump all 91 operators into this group.
5) I'm really not trying to prolong this arguement, I've worked for both 121 and 91 outfits and yes there is a world of difference. I'm glad that you have found a "sweet 91/135 gig that you enjoy." I too enjoy my 91 gig.

Enjoy the rest of your weekend and Fly Safe

 

[casper1nine]

not true pft

maybe i am looking at this wrong, but the eclipse program doesn't exactly meet my definition of pft, because the mentor is not going to be an employee of eclipse.... right? they will in reality be contract pilots.

if that is true, paying to qualify as a mentor is probably a good business opportunity for those qualified. i view this as being similar to a G-V contract pilot paying out of pocket for his recurrent training. both are expensive, but they each are a means to make a pretty good living. i think that there will be a healthy demand for mentor pilots, in as much as eclipse seems to have sold a bunch of planes already, and they are making the standards high enough in terms of experience that hopefully the whores won't qualify.

in my opinion, this would only wreak of pft if the mentor's paychecks came from eclipse, or if the mentor status is NOT something that you will own, to exercise for your benefit, at your discretion.

GIA = PFT
Eaglejet = PFT
paying 10k to work as an fo at a regional = PFT

i don't think this is quite the same as pft.

-casper

 

[Fortunately 100]

Good point

Casper,

Good points. PFT was the wrong wording to include on the title line of my original post. Should have asked the question like "Mentor program: Good or bad for contract pilots?"

It will be interesting to see how this program developes. There may be some potential here, but it is yet to be determined if the initial investment will provide any kind of worthwhile payday. If anyone ever gets some hard numbers on this let us know.
F100

 

[HMR]

Appearantly I don't have too bad of an attitude because I literally went from the furlough into a sweet 91/135 gig that I really enjoy, and I wasn't even looking for it. It came to me.
AZT

Is this the same job with the awful pilots you wouldn't trust your family with?

 

[leardawg]

Here we go again. You need 5000 hours to mentor an E pilot? Give me a break. You need 3000 PIC to mentor an E pilot? Spare me. I have yet to fly with a competent pilot outside of 121 - thank God they are using UAL for some of the training. Oh wait - if you don't have 5000 hours you're not "good" enough anyways. Don't get me wrong, fools exist in 121. But these E machines will be mostly private 91 / 135 and the people teaching them, who may have 5000 TT and 3000 PIC, are likley the same morons flying around right now 91 or 135 (a la Houston). You can teach a monkey to fly this thing - the requirements to be a mentor pilot are ridiculous. But what do I know anyways? I'm the crazy one who takes off into the wind, files the preferred route, and can plan a descent.

AZT

This may well have been your own personal experience, but to claim that 121 makes you a higher aviation mortal than the mere 91/135 types is pomposity of the most unbelievable degree. As a former 135 Check Airman, I flew with my share of 121 types and to tell you the truth, I wasn't too impressed one way or the other. Some were good, some mediocre. I've known some 135 and 91 types who are professionals in every sense of the word, and I'd trust them to fly my family any day over some of the 121 types. Seems to me I recollect some 121 pilots actually being involved in pilot error accidents (AAL in LIT comes to mind). No disrespect intended to them, but it illustrates my point. Training and type of flying don't make the pilot as much as the pilot makes the pilot!

Must be nice to have s**t that doesn't stink!!!

 

[HawkerF/O]

So - my problem is that an eclipse mentor pilot has to have 3000 of jet PIC. My concern is getting the cockpit nazi, clueless as to IFR procedures as it is, in the right seat of an eclipse with his doctor client in the left seat. And this is safer than a 10 year US Air FO who also sits in the box, but lacks the jet PIC time. It's not - and that's my problem.

AZT, you are a loser. 1st of all, you just don't know what you are talking about. All FOs at US Air have jet PIC time. They have ALL been captains at US Air. I do agree that there are some ego driven basta#ds in P91 and it sux, cause they hog the stick. They are also present in P121, but they swap each leg usually, and as long as that is being done, I wont have to kick their AS#, so I really dont care. This really won't be a good program for airline guys, cause they dont know how to get coffee, ice, papers, call for rental cars, or flight plan/file flight plans. Also, the pilots might have to hump some bags, and I can only imagine what their response to that will be.

 

[HawkerF/O]

Casper, it is indeed the same. A contract G-IV guy does not just wake up 1 morning, pick a random type rating, then go get typed in it hoping to get contract work. A G-IV ICP usually has a job flying that aircraft, and for whatever reason, he no longer has that job so he pays for himself to go back to school and knock out a 61.58 so he can keep flying an aircraft he is comfortable with and has experience in.

maybe i am looking at this wrong, but the eclipse program doesn't exactly meet my definition of pft, because the mentor is not going to be an employee of eclipse.... right? they will in reality be contract pilots.

if that is true, paying to qualify as a mentor is probably a good business opportunity for those qualified. i view this as being similar to a G-V contract pilot paying out of pocket for his recurrent training. both are expensive, but they each are a means to make a pretty good living. i think that there will be a healthy demand for mentor pilots, in as much as eclipse seems to have sold a bunch of planes already, and they are making the standards high enough in terms of experience that hopefully the whores won't qualify.

in my opinion, this would only wreak of pft if the mentor's paychecks came from eclipse, or if the mentor status is NOT something that you will own, to exercise for your benefit, at your discretion.

GIA = PFT
Eaglejet = PFT
paying 10k to work as an fo at a regional = PFT

i don't think this is quite the same as pft.

-casper

 

[BluDevAv8r]

This really won't be a good program for airline guys, cause they dont know how to get coffee, ice, papers, call for rental cars, or flight plan/file flight plans. Also, the pilots might have to hump some bags, and I can only imagine what their response to that will be.

What is so hard about the above? I have made coffee before. I had fetched ice from a freezer. I have nabbed a paper or two from the FBO lounge. I have made a reservation for hotels/rental cars. And yes, I have even filed a flight plan (while flying under 121 rules believe it or not). And lastly, I have even tossed a bag or 400....while flying 121...to help out. Your point?

-Neal

 

[Wankel7]

Here we go again. Spare me. I have yet to fly with a competent pilot outside of 121 - thank God they are
AZT

LOL...where do you think your competent 121 buds go their start...did they go straight from the fetus to 121...i think not

 

[FlyFlyFly]

Having trained several 121 types to fly 91/135, I will agree with part of AZT's philosophy. 121 pilots operate terrifically in a structure where runway analysis, weight and balance, fueling planning, routing, climb and approach climb performance and all the other mundane parts of 135/91 flying have all been handled by someone else and all the decisions with regard to the above are made for them.

But take them and put them where that is all part of the job on a 1 hour turn, AND they have to deal with passengers, handlers, line guys, the company etc. and they just wind up sitting and staring into space.

Now don't get me wrong, I do not want to come off as arrogant or anything... just reporting my experience. Generally it takes them a year to get it down.

Tongue removed from cheek now.

 

[casper1nine]

Casper, it is indeed the same. A contract G-IV guy does not just wake up 1 morning, pick a random type rating, then go get typed in it hoping to get contract work. A G-IV ICP usually has a job flying that aircraft, and for whatever reason, he no longer has that job so he pays for himself to go back to school and knock out a 61.58 so he can keep flying an aircraft he is comfortable with and has experience in.

hawkerf/o, if you are saying that it is the same as any other icp type job not being pft, then i agree. if you are saying that it is pft, and different from your example, then i do not for the following reasons:

i understand your example for the g-whatever icp. the #1 thing that allows him to do his icp work is his experience in the plane. after that, the recurrent training is a technicality. his is experience (and reputation) is what makes him marketable, and therefor able to charge a respectable wage for the service he provides. (i do icp work and pay for my own recurrent by the way)

the mentor pilot, by virtue of the selection standards eclipse (to please the faa) has imposed will be a pilot with experience, skill, and knowledge. where as the g-whatever driver has his experience in type to trade on, the mentor pilot will have the credential of having met the selection standards for this program to trade on (as nobody really has logged and eclipse time yet).

the fact that training concerns have and are playing an important role in the certification of this airplane, and that new eclipse pilots will apparently have to hire the services of a mentor for a considerable block of time, make this a legitimate opportunity for ICP work. the sheer volume of orders on the 500 make it look like a pretty lucrative market in my opinion.

now, again, i agree that this is pft if mentor's paychecks come from eclipse, but that appears not to be the case.

the interesting things here will be (as mentioned previously) liability, number of hours required with the mentor, actual numbers of orders filled, and the overall success of the eclipse product on the line.

-casper1nine