Eclipse Mentor Program PFT

[Fortunately 100]

They don't know what it will cost

Filejw,

As of a few weeks ago the folks in Eclipse's Flight Training Curriculum Development department didn't have any info as to what this "mentor" training program will cost to prospective mentors. They did say it would be discounted. They also didn't know if there was going to be a standard fee that the 5000TT/3000PIC, checkairman, IP's, were going to be paid for their professional pilot service. Likely it will be sub par for most of us.Like another poster said, "wait until the market dictates the training and the rates". $2000/day and a Ruths steak sounds about right to me.

If you do submit an application, Eclipse sends out a letter stating that begining in Q4 2005 they will begin the interview process. This consists of a phone interview followed by an in house interview at Eclipse HQ in ABQ. Transportion and lodging at the individuals expense.

I think I'm going to hold out and wait for a Javelin mentor program. I miss my twin vertical tails and pointy nose!
Semper Fly,

F100

 

[FreightGuyNTX]

I agree that the Eclipse program sounds pretty lousy, they'll probably lower those standards a bit instead of making it worth while for the experience level they're currently looking for.
As for the Javelin...I saw one in APA a couple days ago, that thing has fun written all over it!

 

[Mercury]

AZT,
Having been a captain in both the 121 and 91 world I'll take a trip with a 91 guy that has been around the block any day of the week over a trip to the NE corridor with a 700 or 800 hr wunder child in an RJ. I agree the standardization is great at 121 carriers (my exp. is limited to the regional operators), and my hat is off to the guys in the trng depts but gimmie a friggin break with the high and mighty $hit. It takes more than an AFM and QRH to develop into an experienced professional.

Almost forgot, I do agree with you about the Eclispe thing. Have a nice weekend

 

[Lead Sled]

'Sled,

We appreciate that...cuz you know how touchy we are...

There's no question that most 121 operations are "competent". It's also no secret that 2-pilot corporate/business part 91 operations run head to head with the 121 guys in the safety statistics each year. But that is to be expected. Where the statistics start heading down hill is when you blend 135 operations into the mix. Our friend specifically mentioned 91/135 operations and although I could see his point, that is even wrong - I know way too many competent 135 guys and gals out there who are as proficient as they come.

I was late and I was tired. I think that I'm going to lay down for a while.

'Sled

 

[ultrarunner]

The Eclipse 500 mentor program is critical to the success of the Eclipse 500 Type Transition Training program.

Good training critical to the success...

well, then Eclipse should underwrite this program. Simple as that. By making it PFT, the company already has lowered the bar, and wil likely attract that lower form of life.

that's not the kind of babysitter you want.

Hire or contract out to professional pilots that have operated in the environment you are going to have them "mentor in" and you'll have a better chance of coming away with competent pilots.

 

[CorpLearDriver]

I'm not claiming to be great - but it's unbelievable what I've seen since flying 91/135. So much so that I'll NEVER put my family on a chartered jet, EVER (unless I'm flying). I'm not claiming that every 91/135 sucks so bad either.

From you first comments AZ, I would be tempted never to let you in my cockpit with an attitude like that. I hope you never get furloughed because an attitude like that follows a fellow and you might find it difficult to stay current on the outside one day.

As to the PFT bit and having been a contract pilot for a short time in the past, a large percentage of ICPs pay for their own training because they see it as a business expense or an investment. I know of at least one who has gone out and got their own CL30 type recently for such a purpose. It is a speculative investment and one that can only be made after fully evaluating the risks and expected rewards. Often, the payoff isn't what was expected. And, it isn't for everyone.

 

[bafanguy]

There's no question that most 121 operations are "competent". It's also no secret that 2-pilot corporate/business part 91 operations run head to head with the 121 guys in the safety statistics each year. But that is to be expected. Where the statistics start heading down hill is when you blend 135 operations into the mix. Our friend specifically mentioned 91/135 operations and although I could see his point, that is even wrong - I know way too many competent 135 guys and gals out there who are as proficient as they come.

I was late and I was tired. I think that I'm going to lay down for a while.

'Sled

'Sled,

Just joshin' ya...

 

[AZ Typed]

Sumperfido:
Lead Sled:
King Air:

I appreciate the comments. I guess it's alright to come back with your $.02 of advice that doesn't relate to my question at all. Lead Sled aside (he seems to know what he's talking about usually) you're just adding fuel to the fire. So...

I appreciate the comments - but you still haven't answered my original question: don't you think the requirements to be a E pilot mentor are a smidge out of line?

 

[AZ Typed]

From you first comments AZ, I would be tempted never to let you in my cockpit with an attitude like that. I hope you never get furloughed because an attitude like that follows a fellow and you might find it difficult to stay current on the outside one day.

CorpLearDriver: I don't understand your response at all. The fact that I don't believe 91 or 135 is a place I'd put my family gives me a bad attitude? Uh - can you please clarify that? And by the way - I played the furlough game, too. Appearantly I don't have too bad of an attitude because I literally went from the furlough into a sweet 91/135 gig that I really enjoy, and I wasn't even looking for it. It came to me. So again - can you make some sense out of your response for me?

AZT

 

[AZ Typed]

Good training critical to the success...

well, then Eclipse should underwrite this program. Simple as that. By making it PFT, the company already has lowered the bar, and wil likely attract that lower form of life.

that's not the kind of babysitter you want.

Hire or contract out to professional pilots that have operated in the environment you are going to have them "mentor in" and you'll have a better chance of coming away with competent pilots.

Agreed.

 

[AZ Typed]

AZT,
Having been a captain in both the 121 and 91 world I'll take a trip with a 91 guy that has been around the block any day of the week over a trip to the NE corridor with a 700 or 800 hr wunder child in an RJ. I agree the standardization is great at 121 carriers (my exp. is limited to the regional operators), and my hat is off to the guys in the trng depts but gimmie a friggin break with the high and mighty $hit. It takes more than an AFM and QRH to develop into an experienced professional.

Almost forgot, I do agree with you about the Eclispe thing. Have a nice weekend

Mercury,

Everybody always falls back to the 800 hour wonder flying an RJ around. Give me a break - how many of these kids are there, really? And of these, they have 800 hours - so who would insure them in anything outside of a 121 RJ anyways?

With that said, the 121 guys have been through a structured program that teaches procedures in the IFR system - exactly where the eclipse will be operating a lot (I imagine). The 135/91 guys have been to Flight Saftey or Simulflight - a far cry from the standards of 121. Not to mention the total lack of CRM taught (I can't vouge personally for Simuflight - just listen to good friends who've atteneded). It's the decision making skills that will determine if a eclipse pilot can make it in the machine. The 91/135 world just lacks in teaching and supporting this philosophy in the cockpit. I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I am saying it's lacking - a lot.

And I'm not sure where you're getting the "high & mighty *#&$" from. I never said that 121 is "high and mighty." at all. What I did say is the 121 pilot is typically trained better in how to operate in the environment that the eclipse will be operating under. Granted, the 121 guy doesn't go into BFE airport - but the 121 guy is taught the decision making skills to successfully complete such a mission. This is why 20,000 hour ATPs crash - the decision making was incorrect. It's the same reason 20 hour students crash - the decision making was flawd. My dig is that 91/135 just does't have the experience/background/research to teach and support this critical "experience" and decision making skills that lead to safe flights. Again, it's there...it's just weak.

So - my problem is that an eclipse mentor pilot has to have 3000 of jet PIC. My concern is getting the cockpit nazi, clueless as to IFR procedures as it is, in the right seat of an eclipse with his doctor client in the left seat. And this is safer than a 10 year US Air FO who also sits in the box, but lacks the jet PIC time. It's not - and that's my problem. The requirements to be an eclipse mentor pilot are out of line with what they are trying to achieve - safe owner operators. They aren't TOTALLY out of line, just not ideal for the ultimate goal - safe turbine trasistion pilots.

now I give up - go ahead and tell me how stupid I am

AZT

 

[Tommy Boy]

OK, I'll take the bait. AZ dork.


Like the 15,000 hr 121 guru, who always reminded me he had more heavy time than I had total time, said when we lost all oil pressure on #2 ...Ahhhhh, I'll call the company and see what they want us to do...."

When the eclipse pilot is all by himself and something goes wrong, he is going to need to know how to take charge of the situation and save his azz. Sorry but PIC time DOES count for something there.

And further more, where you train and build time does not determine what kind of a pilot you are. That's all about what kind of a person you are and how you choose to live your life. If there was a perfect place to train we would all go that route.

There's an old saying..till you've walked a mile in my shoes.....

 

[On Your Six]

Mercury,

Everybody always falls back to the 800 hour wonder flying an RJ around. Give me a break - how many of these kids are there, really? And of these, they have 800 hours - so who would insure them in anything outside of a 121 RJ anyways?

With that said, the 121 guys have been through a structured program that teaches procedures in the IFR system - exactly where the eclipse will be operating a lot (I imagine). The 135/91 guys have been to Flight Saftey or Simulflight - a far cry from the standards of 121. Not to mention the total lack of CRM taught (I can't vouge personally for Simuflight - just listen to good friends who've atteneded). It's the decision making skills that will determine if a eclipse pilot can make it in the machine. The 91/135 world just lacks in teaching and supporting this philosophy in the cockpit. I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I am saying it's lacking - a lot.

And I'm not sure where you're getting the "high & mighty *#&$" from. I never said that 121 is "high and mighty." at all. What I did say is the 121 pilot is typically trained better in how to operate in the environment that the eclipse will be operating under. Granted, the 121 guy doesn't go into BFE airport - but the 121 guy is taught the decision making skills to successfully complete such a mission. This is why 20,000 hour ATPs crash - the decision making was incorrect. It's the same reason 20 hour students crash - the decision making was flawd. My dig is that 91/135 just does't have the experience/background/research to teach and support this critical "experience" and decision making skills that lead to safe flights. Again, it's there...it's just weak.

So - my problem is that an eclipse mentor pilot has to have 3000 of jet PIC. My concern is getting the cockpit nazi, clueless as to IFR procedures as it is, in the right seat of an eclipse with his doctor client in the left seat. And this is safer than a 10 year US Air FO who also sits in the box, but lacks the jet PIC time. It's not - and that's my problem. The requirements to be an eclipse mentor pilot are out of line with what they are trying to achieve - safe owner operators. They aren't TOTALLY out of line, just not ideal for the ultimate goal - safe turbine trasistion pilots.

now I give up - go ahead and tell me how stupid I am

AZT

AZT,

Like you, I am furloughed and now flying Part 91. My suggestion on these boards is to ignore other peoples' comments when they don't match yours and not add fuel to the fire - just some helpful advice.

 

[filejw]

Thank guys ,Just looking some thing to do beside golf and ski.JW

 

[Mercury]

azt,
1) I never once refered to you as stupid in my post.
2) As for the high and mighty stuff, I believe your post said that everyone you've flown with outside of 121 has been 2nd rate.
3) If you take the time to re-read my comments, the last line says that I agree with you on the Eclipse thing. You are correct it "is the decision making skills"
4) As for 91/135 not having the "experience/background/research to teach this decision making..." All i can say is that not all 91 departments are created equal. They run the gambit from top notch Fortune 100 operators to the nickle and dime types that make you pack your own lunch. Please do not lump all 91 operators into this group.
5) I'm really not trying to prolong this arguement, I've worked for both 121 and 91 outfits and yes there is a world of difference. I'm glad that you have found a "sweet 91/135 gig that you enjoy." I too enjoy my 91 gig.

Enjoy the rest of your weekend and Fly Safe