Eagle Scope Arbitration

[FlyingDawg]

Overheard some Eagle pilots talking and one stated that the scope arbitration was lost. Is this fact or fiction? If this is true does anyone know details as to why?

 

[amaineiac]

It's true. We lost.
We'll shrink while they grow TSA/CHQ.
I keep thinking it can't get worse, yet it does.

 

[46Driver]

amaineiac,
It could be worse - you could be French.....
Good Luck out there.

 

[BoredToDeath]

It's true. We lost.
We'll shrink while they grow TSA/CHQ.
I keep thinking it can't get worse, yet it does.

To all of you at Eagle. I'm truly sorry that you lost this battle. Those of us on the outside of this fight, that have contract carriers in our own back yards as well, were really hopeing you would win. Do you think you guys might get some better lawyers and try again? Or does the loss of this battle mean you'll give up the war?

 

[Skull-One]

Look, Eagle guys and gals... I hate to burst your bubble of pity, but get off our backs here in STL. I don't know about TSA, but CHQ is *NOT* growing at Eagle's expense. All of our growth is for Delta Connection, not for *American* Connection in STL.

Stop ragging us for growing at your expense. We're not.

 

[eaglefly]

What will be your argument when you strart flying thru DFW, ORD or one of our other hubs ?

To all : This only involves the STL operation.

Most likely AMR will now try to "push the envelope" with new feeders for AA in current Eagle hubs.

Many are saying all hell will break loose when that happens.

 

[Skull-One]

That hasn't happened, has it?

Therefore, predictions on what my argument will be are pointless at this moment in time.

Stick to the issue at hand. CHQ is not growing at Eagle's expense. *PERIOD* **EXCLAMATION POINT** Dismissed!

 

[Patriot328]

Look, Eagle guys and gals... I hate to burst your bubble of pity, but get off our backs here in STL. I don't know about TSA, but CHQ is *NOT* growing at Eagle's expense. All of our growth is for Delta Connection, not for *American* Connection in STL.

Stop ragging us for growing at your expense. We're not.

So CHQ is growing at Comair's/ ASA's expense... I feel much better now.


I work at a company that codes with DAL, so I understand your perspective, but don't try to belittle the Eagle pilots into thinking y'all are innocent. If you've expanded because of contract flying you do at American or Delta, you've grown at someone else's expense. Don't deny it.

So have we, but I don't deny it. I hope one day if it has a DAL/AMR/NWA/USAIR paintjob on the plane it will be flown by a DAL/AMR/NWA/USAIR pilot. The integration will be ugly, but in the long run it will be worth it. DAL is competing with people like Comair who is competing with people like ACA who is competing with people like Chatauqua who is competing with people like Mesa. It's a tough battle to fight separately, but we could do a lot together.

 

[Skull-One]

Excuse me, but how are we growing at Comair or anyone else's expense? Comair continues to grow on its own and has no contractual scope language to prevent CHQ from adding airplanes for DAL. Nor does ASA to my knowledge. At their expense? Hardly.

There are two valid arguments:

1) The fine folks at Comair priced themselves out of the market because of their wage rates.

2) It was not economically feasible for Comair to operate a second type of airplane to do its Orlando flying when another company already had said equipment.

Whatever. The point is, CHQ offered a product that was competitive and got a contract. This was not done at anyone's "expense." Comair and ASA did not lose pilots because CHQ came in. Eagle did not lose, and is NOT *losing*, pilots because of CHQ.

Sorry, but that dog won't hunt...

 

[Patriot328]

I'm sorry,


but to fly the same class of a/c and say that dog won't hunt is absolute BS.

Simple fact is CMR closed a base and y'all took it, much like we took some of the flying out of CVG. Yeah CMR might in the short term get different flying, but the end result is that they have grown less than they would have if we weren't flying for DAL. I've seen your operation and comairs and I don't believe you offer a superior product, just cheaper.

You may have been pulled in because they needed CMR's RJs somewhere else immediately, but the end result is all the flying you're doing out of MCO should be CMRs like it was originally and I hope they get it back. If DAL wants to fly you out of MCO they should f'ing buy you and integrate you into CMR or ASA (which should be together in the first place). I wouldn't mind if they do the same with ACA, to be honest.

I fly for ACA and I feel the same way, so spare me any "you don't know what it's like" comments. I know we're (ACA the corporate entity) ripping off CMR and ASA by contracting with DAL. Like you, I'm just a pilot, and there's nothing I can do about it, other than try work my ass off to get a real contract that makes me on par with my professional peers to continue to improve this profession.

Fact is, you were chosen not because of your superior product (if you think so you're on crack), but only you are cheaper. That's it. You're hurting the industry and everyone else that follows in your footsteps, just so you can make barely $50/hr to fly a jungle jet.



On Edit: I loved Robotech as a kid. Sull-one was da man.. roy fokker, right?

 

[void]

A few things.

I'm not taking sides on this, but it really isn't suprising that Eagle lost the arbitration. If AMR is good at anything it is probobly fighting lawsuits.

Contract carriers have been around for a long time, they are nothing new. ACA started in '89, Mesa in '82, Trans States in ' 82, Chautauqua in '73, Skywest in ' 72, and Mesaba in '44 (believe it or not.) It doesn't look like they are going to turn around and disappear any time soon.

I wouldn't be suprised to see a franchise type airline sometime in the futrure. An airline where everything is contracted out to different carriers, everything from long-haul international, down to 50-100 mile hops.

As far as Chautauqua getting MCO from Comair. Chautauqua is cheaper for the fact they are flying not just 50 seat EMB-145's, but 37 seat EMB-135's. It fits more into DAL's designs of phasing out turbo-props. Flying a 135 is seemingly cheeper than flying either the 40 or 50 seat CRJ. It also fits the markets better. The 135 can also get in and out of EYW with a full load of people, which both the CRJ-200 and the CRJ-700 cannot do.

Just my two cents.

 

[Skull-One]

(Yeah, man! Roy Fokker. Glad you caught the reference as some people think it means I am a skinhead or something! www.robotech-aod.com <-- My novel. Check it out sometime).


Okay, now... Back to the discussion...

Superior product. I stand by that claim. I think CHQ does as good a job as, if not better than, any regional operating today. I can darned sure say that we do better than any other contract carrier out there. Our numbers prove it day in and day out. We're cheaper than some, but our peformance doesn't suffer as a result. (Superior doesn't have to mean *the best* it can also mean darned GOOD or upper tier.)

Again, this is a market economy. Nobody owns the flying that is out there. If ASA/CMR had scope on the issue I'd concede the point, but they do not. If CHQ was such a poor operation we wouldn't have gotten the contract in the first place, nor would we be seeing our options exercised at such a precipitous rate. We got the hard way: offering a great product at a competitive price. Honestly, I don't see the wholly owned carriers complaining about, either. They're growing like gangbusters at CMR and doing a great job.

FWIW, we did not *take* MCO. It was offered to us. If anything, CMR *LOST* MCO. They wouldn't have been as profitable doing it and DAL doesn't want to pee money away for no reason, especially when CMR's assets are being utilized elsewhere. The CRJ won't do what the ERJ will do and the MCO operation is very runway-length intensive. The only way CMR could do it is to buy ERJs and they don't want them. The expense involved wouldn't be worth it for anyone but Embraer.

Again, we didn't do anything at anyone's expense. If anything, having CMR in MCO would have been at the CUSTOMER'S EXPENSE in terms of ticket prices.


No offense to my friends at COMAIR and ASA. We love you guys!

 

[FlyingDawg]

Delta buy Chautauqua? If you look at the IPO for Republic Holdings (Chautauquas parent) Delta positioned themselves to do just that. If they exercise that option they could put a big hurt on US Airways by moving aircraft to Delta Connection to compete against US Airways in the northeast. This would also secure certain routes in the northeast if US Air does go belly up.

Be careful what you say here it might happen.

 

[Patriot328]

(Yeah, man! Roy Fokker. Glad you caught the reference as some people think it means I am a skinhead or something! www.robotech-aod.com <-- My novel. Check it out sometime).

First off,

Robotech is by far the best cartoon/series/anime that's ever come across the airways. So there we have no discussion, other than which veritech is the best...


I do not believe CHQ offers a superior product, but I will concede that the offer the same product (getting people from point A to B) for less price. As far as the numbers, send the dork jets or CRJs down to Otown and they'd be doing the same. It's not a coincidence that out numbers improved dramatically since we left the hell hole (that I loved) called La Guardia.

I also believe the spirit of your statement that if comair and ASA wanted complete control of Delcon fly they'd negotiate for it, and since it's legally available, both your company and mine (and Skywest) can bid for it. I still stand by the statement that the contract carriers are hurting the "wholly owneds" by being able to underbid them (and even if they don't underbid them, DAL management can use contract carriers to undermind wholly owneds negotiating power).

My statements, of course, are taken from an outside point of view. Being a pilot for a "contract carrier" I do not want to see our contract nulled, but if it were, I would understand. The idea of codesharing is a bait and switch in the most basic form and should be outlawed. I would feel much better flying for Delta at $60/hr as a dojet captain than flying at ACA as a $60/hr dojet captain.


Of course, that being said, I'm off to check out your site... I absolutely love Robotech!!

Patriot

 

[resistance]

Death to AMR..... I say this because I work there and this reversal of a decision by the arbitrator is due to corporate greed. This company, AMR, has shown to it's own employees that it never cares about your future and the future of YOUR family. I hope they will soon file Chapter 11 and let the lawyers open the books and see how this company has raped, looted, and spit in the face of it's employees.

If you think it will never happen at your company YOUR WRONG!! I warn you at ASA and Comair this "problem" is slowly coming your way. The "problem" has already destroyed US Air Express system. This "problem" was attempted to killed by the pilot's of Eagle but apparently Management still has enough money to pay off the arbitrator.

Yesterday's decision by the arbitrator has shown that Management is not looking toward a future but a bottom line and I know for a fact that they will pay the price for this one.....

Don't Fly American...
Don't Fly Eagle....
Boycott AMR Corporation!

Now I know what the pilot's of Eastern felt when their flying was taken away from them by Frank Lorenzo to Continental.

 

[eaglefly]

Skull-1 will justify taking anyones flying anywhere as long as it benefits him. I've visited the TSA website now and then and have heard the same greedy self-centered rhetoric before.

Unfortunately true airline pilots will always have individuals like this in our midst - future management trainees masquarading as airline pilots.

 

[CRJ700 FO]

The pilots worst enemy is the pilot himself. As long as there are people willing to whore themselves out and do it cheaper, there will always be contract companies, ie. Mesa, TSA, CHQ, stealing flying from other carriers. ALPA tries to bring all pilots together to prevent that and it doesn't work. I know I worked for Eagle for way too long. I saw the conditions get worse and worse. It wasn't because the flying wasn't there, it was because some people are cheap. And when Eagle has to sign a 16 year contract to try to prevent the outsourcing of its flying and prevent conditions from getting worse, and it happens anyway, we didn't lose it, it was taken away. Eagle had scope language in its contract. Therefore when TWA was bought and became AA, the feed should have been Eagle. They said they didn't have the resources yet they sell airplanes and furlough pilots. Its just someone was willing to do it cheaper.
So to skull one, you guys don't offer a superior product. You offer a cheaper product. That is only superior in the eyes of the bean counters. Passengers look at a regional plane as a puddle jumper, they don't care whose flying it. And when a company like Freedom Air comes in and takes your job, don't start crying.
And to all my former co-workers at Eagle, I feel for you. I jumped ship while there were still some lifeboats.

 

[sidseal]

I also left eagle to get away from this crap and low and behold here comes sh#taqua again. They are like the f#@king plague.

 

[maddog805]

posted by Skull-One

Superior product. I stand by that claim. I think CHQ does as good a job as, if not better than, any regional operating today. I can darned sure say that we do better than any other contract carrier out there.

You CHQ guys put up good numbers for on-time departures and completion last month for Delta. As a matter of fact you TIED SkyWest's numbers. You forgot one thing though.......SkyWest has FOUR TIMES more departures for Delta than CHQ does.
Nice try though...

 

[Skull-One]

We're in the middle of starting up an operation. Give us some time. You'll see...

As for people "stealing" flying. Give me a break! This is a market economy. Short of some very strict language, nobody is stealing anything. I'll quote my major professor when I was working on my MBA as he summed it up quite eloquently:

"Unions seek to drive up wages by artificially restricting the supply of labor."

That's all there is to it. YOU CANNOT DEFY THE FORCES OF THE MARKET NO MATTER HOW STRONG YOUR CONTRACT. Call it stealing if you want. I call it "Market Forces." It sucks, but it's the way it is. If you try to defy the market you will be out of business. PLAIN AND SIMPLE.

Ask Pan Am, United, USAirways, Braniff, and coming soon to a theater near you...AMERICAN.

If every RJ driver in the US made 100 bucks an hour then people would either drive or get into the bullet train business. SWA would sure see more business, too.

YOU CANNOT DEFY THE MARKET. Get it through your heads. Geeze...and I thought most pilots had at least a Bachelor's Degree. I must have been wrong on that one.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

This is one of the funniest posts I have ever seen! A bunch of guys, ALL of whom are getting flying because their airline does it cheaper than mainline, accusing each other of doing the same things they themselves are doing!

It is too ironic for words. Carry on...It's fun to watch.

 

[jetexas]

Fun to watch?? Got Scope? Got Comair? Got CHQ? This string is about a companies wonton violation of Eagle's scope clause. If it can happen to us, it can happen to you to..especially if/when the RLA act is amended! We'll all be flying for school teacher salaries if we're lucky in the coming years!

 

[Skull-One]

Yes, and again, CHQ is not growing at Eagle's expense. Period. Move along....

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Fun to watch?? Got Scope? Got Comair? Got CHQ? This string is about a companies wonton violation of Eagle's scope clause. If it can happen to us, it can happen to you to..especially if/when the RLA act is amended! We'll all be flying for school teacher salaries if we're lucky in the coming years!

Gee, ya think it can happen to us?

This is what I've been saying for years. It is just a bit telling that some people only wake up when it is happening to them.

 

[TSA ERJ]

The pay and work rules at TSA are not as bad as many of you may think. I can't speak for Mesa and CHQ, but our MEC recently determined where we stand on pay relative to the rest of the industry. TSA's pay scales are currently 5% below industry average. This is taking into account the most recent and most substantial gains in the regional industry by airlines like ACA, Comair and Air Wisconsin. Trans States is a very lean company and often can provide the same or an even better product as other airlines for a lower rate. There are many factors that go into the cost of doing business and the pilot's contract is only one of many variables. We are nearing the end of our current contract which expires in 2004. We all hope to do our part to help continue to raise the standard in the regional industry and we hope we have your support.

Skull-One, don't be so quick to claim CHQ's performance superiority. I haven't seen any American Connection performance numbers, but from US Airways own releases, TSA has lead all of the US Express carriers in on time and completions for quite sometime.

For the Eagle guys: There are many of us who disagree with the way your pilot group has been treated. In fact, there are many of our pilots who will not bid the American Connection flying, despite the better schedules on that side of the company, for that very reason. Not to mention that our MEC Chairman stood shoulder to shoulder with many of you at your informational picketing. This may be of little solace to most of you, but it goes to show that regardless of what actions our respective management takes, we can still be supportive of each other.

 

[resistance]

Though I don't necessarily blame the pilots at contract carriers....I do blame our scumbag management at AMR for not honoring our contract. What is the point of laws and contracts if both parties don't honor them. We become a lawless industry which we are seeing now and will continue to see. This company can go down the tubes since I can careless. I feel that if a company cannot lead by example and honor the contracts than it sould not be allowed to operate.

Again I hope this company, AMR, goes bankrupt and the books are opened up. I think names like Enron, WorldCom and Global Crossing will come up on this list with AMR as the most corrupt and dishonest company ever.

 

[Uncle Don]

"Unions seek to drive up wages by artificially restricting the supply of labor."

"The fine folks at Comair priced themselves out of the market because of their wage rates."

About Unions driving up wages....Maybe in some industries, but inthe regional airline market place, they try to put college educated workers above the poverty level.

About the fine folks at Comair pricing themselves out....No they did not. You folks at CHQ whore your selves out to the mngt of the industry! Which make others who bust there but to change this industry look expensive, when they are still hardly middle class.

So keep up the good work CHQ, provide that "great, cheap product," and soon you may be flying 747's and 777's to Asia for $35/hr!.......PS you too MESA if you don't VOTE NO on that terrible TA.

 

[Uncle Don]

The results from the much anticipated scope arbitration are in. Unfortunately, the Arbitrator has ruled that the Company was not in violation of the contract when it did not aggressively seek the St. Louis flying opportunities. In his ruling, the Arbitrator noted that the Association had not met its burden of proof to show that the Company made an unreasonable or uninformed decision. We could not possibly disagree more.



At the crux of this case was a meeting held by American Eagle senior management in January of 2001. It was at this meeting that the Company first considered whether or not to pursue the St. Louis flying. In sworn testimony, a senior management official stated that the topic was only discussed for fifteen minutes. Another senior management official stated that no notes were kept of the discussion and that this was an unscheduled agenda item. Apparently, the Arbitrator felt that in those unscheduled fifteen minutes, without any documentation or feasibility studies, management was able to make a reasonable and informed decision. Of course, the Company managers claim that with their many years of airline experience they only needed this small amount of time to make a reasonable determination.



While you now know the final results, there is much more to this story. In late December, the Arbitrator released a draft decision which found that the Company did indeed violate section 1.F of our contract when it chose not to pursue the additional flying opportunities in St. Louis. For those of you who do not know, a draft decision is the Arbitrator’s initial ruling on a grievance. It is not a final ruling. Normally, after a draft decision is issued, both parties would convene an ‘Executive Session’ to discuss the various aspects of the draft ruling. In this case, however, the Arbitrator instead opted to receive additional comments in writing from both parties. After another three weeks had passed, the Arbitrator again solicited written responses to the first written comments after the draft decision. Several more weeks followed, and in an unprecedented move, and without explanation, the Arbitrator reversed himself, and now found that the Company acted reasonably and denied the grievance. It is fair to say that there have been rare occasions when Arbitrators have reversed their draft decisions at other airlines, but this has never occurred on our property. This stunning reversal has crushed the career expectations of all Eagle pilots.





Clearly, this is a stinging defeat. We will not try and “spin” this in any other manner. It is made worse by the fact that we initially were told we won, and that the Company had indeed violated the contract. Quite frankly, the initial ruling offers little in which to take solace. Nonetheless, I feel it is important that all of our pilots understand exactly what transpired in this case.



What remains is the simple and painful fact that at the end of the day, our contractual language did not protect us. As I have stated countless times before, the price we have paid for our current contract is simply, too steep. What we were supposed to obtain in return for a sixteen-year, pay-indexed, no-strike contract, has now failed the ultimate test, the protection of the very jobs it encompasses. It is fair to say that we have given the world and obtained very little, if anything in return.



Inevitably, there will be many questions regarding this case. Many will ask where do we go from here? This Thursday, your MEC Officers along with a host of advisors will be participating in an emergency meeting to consider our options. One fact we do know is that as a matter of survival, we must put a stop to our continued job erosion. We will not allow management to outsource our jobs to St. Louis or elsewhere.



For now, rest assured that the battle is far from over.

 

[Uncle Don]

First take a minute to understand what the grievance was really about. When the company signed the “Jet Services Agreements” with Chautauqua and Trans-States in 2001, ALPA filed a grievance claiming that these agreements violate Section 1F of our contract. The contract language is as follows:

”INCREASED FLYING OPPORTUNITIES – The Company will aggressively seek to increase flying opportunities when it is economical, practical and feasible to do so, including, but not limited to, bidding on opportunities to provide additional feed to American Airlines, Inc.”

In the arbitration hearing, we were able to successfully prove to the arbitrator that the company flagrantly disregarded this contract language. Two large points made in the case were:

The company did consider putting Eagle in STL and “ran the numbers” on it. Those numbers, however, were not used to put Eagle into STL but were used to bargain cheaper rates with Chautauqua and Trans-States.
The company claims that they could not simply set up a new hub overnight. We presented evidence as to the overnight opening of the RDU hub to dissolve that claim, proving that the company was completely capable of putting Eagle into STL.

Although a bulletproof case was argued, the realistic expectation of a significant damage award was low. We could never expect an arbitrator to simply close down STL overnight nor could we expect the arbitrator to rule that the company had to buy all of the airplanes from Chautauqua. What we would get is a ruling in our favor with some damages, that would set a very strong precedent for other grievances filed regarding scope.

The arbitrator issued a draft award approximately 6 weeks ago, ruling in ALPA’s favor. There were several parts of that draft award that were slammed the company for the actions mentioned above. This draft ruling specifically stated that the Company was in violation of Section 1F, and was going to grant us the grievance. From that point on we were simply trying to negotiate damages to be awarded to us.

Allow me to provide a small amount of background information about the arbitration process. Our disputes are presided over by a “System Board of Adjustment” which is composed of 3 people, a company representative, an ALPA representative, and a neutral chair (the arbitrator). As a matter of legal ethics, all information concerning an award is privileged solely to the Board members until the award is finalized. When a draft award is issued, it is common for the Board to meet in “Executive Sessions” to assist in making a final award. Either side may call an Executive Session to make a change to the draft award, with the concurrence of the arbitrator. The changes made are usually minor in nature, and are to improve on shortcomings of the draft award. For example if a draft award rules for one side of the dispute but the award does not specifically address a remedy, then the Board may meet to discuss language to be inserted in the final draft that would include a remedy. It is almost unheard of for an arbitrator to reverse his original opinion during an Executive Session.

In this case, the arbitrator completely reversed his decision and rewrote the entire draft award. Apparently this was NOT because of compelling arguments from the company Board member, but simply because this arbitrator changed his mind. This leaves us only to speculate as to WHY this happened.

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What the first reactions are:

quote:
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We will be sending this arbitrator a “Letter of Dissent”, which is legal document that outlines our numerous disagreements with his actions. Also, we’ve had ALPA National file an appeal with the National Mediation Board regarding this case.

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Personally, I would look at the Arbitators bank accounts to see if he has made any large deposits lately.....

 

[nimtz]

Superior product. I stand by that claim. I think CHQ does as good a job as, if not better than, any regional operating today. I can darned sure say that we do better than any other contract carrier out there. Our numbers prove it day in and day out. We're cheaper than some, but our peformance doesn't suffer as a result. (Superior doesn't have to mean *the best* it can also mean darned GOOD or upper tier.)

Ahh, then why aren't you guys winning 'Regional Airline of the Year' awards. I've seen you guys operate side by side with my airline and I have yet to be impressed. Additionally, I haven't met a gate agent yet who didn't think the 'other express operation' wasn't a serious pain in the arse. BTW, notice that your management is too cheap to put the quiter and more efficent APU on the ERJ's. Not suprising I guess. Now the question is how long to repaint the AW airplanes to DAL colors. I give it 4 years.