Eagle recalls

80drvr

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 20, 2002
Posts
341
Total Time
10000+
~~~^~~~ said:
Phase III should be Phase I.

If you have one list, then you automatically have:
(1) The ability to operate the right sized equipment
(2) One union political leadership
(3) No fights over phases I, or II.

The Eagle pilot's concerns that AA/APA will steal their jets and ride off into the sunset seems legitimate. My thought is that if you promise to love us later, you can love us now. Put things in proper order and onelist first. Then everyone will suppport Phases I and II.

Getting onelist through management will be easier as a united group. Together - pilots telling the press "All American Flying by American Pilots" is appealing - it gives you the moral high ground.

If you've been at AE for any length of time, then I think you know how much AMR cares if everyone at AE supports what they negotiate with APA. It's naive to think that pilots can all sing kumbaya and will win the battle with the corporate spin machine. Do you know how much an ad in USA Today costs.

AMR will respond to the bottom line and leverage. In this case they want to grow regional flying, but have run head first into the contractual limitations on such flying. They need something from APA. Now we'll get to see how much this flying and the associated leverage is really worth. It may be worth all three phases of APA's proposal, none or somewhere in between.

AE pilots will be affected directly by any and all of the potential outcomes. Just remember that the status quo may carry more negative consequences than this industry leading effort to change to the way we man our aircraft.
 

Ameriagle

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 11, 2002
Posts
222
Total Time
10,000
Has anyone read the lastest Skyline message posted by Peter Bowler? He basically called the latest APA proposal comical. At this point I would have to agree that the AMR powers to be would never let the current deal come to fruitation. Is Eagle getting ASM cap relief worth the "skyrocketing cost" of the new operation as proposed? Probably not.

As for this proposal being good for Eagle? Again the devil is in the details. I do not think an Eagle pilot group would ever agree to such a proposal without greater increases in pay and working conditions (yes, I believe the Eagle work group would have a say in such an agreement). Lets see....APA recovers all but a very little bit of our jet flying to start. With the exception of a few Eagle rights pilots every captain on the jet already has or is entitled to a number on AA's list so how would the proposal be good for that pilot? It would not. For the bottom thousand on our list, those who would be ultimately furloughed, how could it be a good deal? And then to be called back to fly the RJ that I am flying right now? Does not seem to be worth my while.

As for the ASM cap I have not heard a comment from any member of APA of the actual benefits of Eagle feed to mainline and how capping our flying would hurt their members. The majority of Eagle flying is to feed big brother at mainline. If Super 80's and F-100's are flying around empty how is that going to stimulate mainline growth to the point where APA can get their pilots off the street now, or at least in the near future? All for what amounts to some turboprop markets in west Texas or Central California! The fact is the jets are bought and paid for and on their way......the markets they are to be used on are probably already been decided on. The compromise will be the small turboprop markets that APA will never have an interest in, thus they will just go away.

This is certainly only my point of view on the current proposal and situation. I hope it works itself out is such a way that all parties will benefit. Have a nice day!

P.S. What ever happened to the APA's 40 million dollar fine and how might that ultimately play into all of this as a bargining chip againt the union?
 

Skywalker

Furloughed Jedi Knight
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
20
Total Time
2700
AMR has a history of pitting both pilots groups against each other so it ends up getting AMR's way. It can't do that if the pilot groups are together with the threat of the biggest pilots strike in history.
 

Draginass

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 29, 2001
Posts
1,852
Total Time
5000+
APA has leverage with AMR due to the scope clause/ASM cap. ALPA AE has no contractual leverage that I know of.

Does anyone have a 5 year history on what percentage of AE pax actually connect to a AA mainline flight. I wonder if the percentage is getting smaller every year and the "feed" arguement is a slight of hand.
 

80drvr

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 20, 2002
Posts
341
Total Time
10000+
Ameriagle said:
Has anyone read the lastest Skyline message posted by Peter Bowler? He basically called the latest APA proposal comical. At this point I would have to agree that the AMR powers to be would never let the current deal come to fruitation. Is Eagle getting ASM cap relief worth the "skyrocketing cost" of the new operation as proposed? Probably not.

As for this proposal being good for Eagle? Again the devil is in the details. I do not think an Eagle pilot group would ever agree to such a proposal without greater increases in pay and working conditions (yes, I believe the Eagle work group would have a say in such an agreement). Lets see....APA recovers all but a very little bit of our jet flying to start. With the exception of a few Eagle rights pilots every captain on the jet already has or is entitled to a number on AA's list so how would the proposal be good for that pilot? It would not. For the bottom thousand on our list, those who would be ultimately furloughed, how could it be a good deal? And then to be called back to fly the RJ that I am flying right now? Does not seem to be worth my while.

As for the ASM cap I have not heard a comment from any member of APA of the actual benefits of Eagle feed to mainline and how capping our flying would hurt their members. The majority of Eagle flying is to feed big brother at mainline. If Super 80's and F-100's are flying around empty how is that going to stimulate mainline growth to the point where APA can get their pilots off the street now, or at least in the near future? All for what amounts to some turboprop markets in west Texas or Central California! The fact is the jets are bought and paid for and on their way......the markets they are to be used on are probably already been decided on. The compromise will be the small turboprop markets that APA will never have an interest in, thus they will just go away.

This is certainly only my point of view on the current proposal and situation. I hope it works itself out is such a way that all parties will benefit. Have a nice day!

P.S. What ever happened to the APA's 40 million dollar fine and how might that ultimately play into all of this as a bargining chip againt the union?

-You're making a lot of unfounded assumptions in coming to the conclusion that the bottom of the AE list will be furloughed as a consequence of this proposal. I've been at AE, so I know how poor the flow of factual info is and I can empathize with how some of these extreme ideas gain momentum.

-Much of the new RJ flying is point to point and not feed at all and certainly doesn't comply with intent of the contractual conditions for commuter feed.

-The 45mil fine is settled.

-Peter Bowler can laugh all he wants. A frivelous reaction from mgmt will not induce APA to grant AMR relief of the scope issues.
 

FlyinBrian

Office Slut
Joined
Nov 29, 2001
Posts
355
Total Time
1300
THis proposal would not necessarily mean more Eagle fuloughs. Remember that we have a lot of parked airplanes right now. The ASM cap means for every jet we take, we have to get rid of at least 2 props. If AA starts taking our jets, this actually allows us to start flying 2 parked props for every jet they take from us. This COULD translate to recalls instead of furloughs. I don't know how anyone could realistically forecast what this would mean for the bottom of Eagle's list given the tremendous complexity of the situation. Not that it really matters because the proposal will not be accepted by AMR. I agree with Jim Higgins that the most significant thing about this proposal is the APA's desire to consolidate.
 

L.A.pilot

Active member
Joined
Dec 16, 2001
Posts
27
Total Time
5000
~~~^~~~, if Phase III occurs before Phase I, there will be very senior Eagle pilots junior to AA furloughees. APA's proposal would get all pilots off the street before the integration takes place. It would be important for any new hiring to occur after the integration.

For those worried about more furloughs at Eagle- with the current situation, Eagle cannot grow while AA is on furlough. This proposal will allow additional flying and opportunity for both Eagle and AA pilots. The most obvious benefit for Eagle pilots would be that they will ALL have an AA seniority number. With the current flow-through, thousands of pilots can be hired at AA before an Eagle pilot gets their number. Any set-back due to being behind furloughed AA pilots would be short term, compared to the benefit of being on the same list. Only new aircraft would go to AA, and the three phase approach would keep most Eagle pilots flying until all AA pilots are recalled (With AA taking the new aircraft, Eagle won't be forced to remove aircraft at the same rate as new deliveries).

Additionally, having one pilot group would benefit all pilots, because they could negotiate together, rather than against each other. AMR may consider the costs too high if mainline flys the RJs- but if APA is willing to negotiate rates similar to Eagle for flying the RJ, it would be more feasible. They still have to compete with RJs from United and Delta that are operating at a low labor cost. However, with the current limitations on AA due to scope, APA may have enough leverage to get rates for the RJs more along the lines of their standard payscale. There would be less labor cost incentive to fly the RJs rather than larger, more economical aircraft. The RJs are efficient and revolutionizing the industry, but it isn't good to have well paid jobs elimated because they can staff the RJs for really cheap.
 

eagleatr

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 28, 2001
Posts
77
Total Time
5000
Unfortunately, everyone is about to be disappointed. I copied this section from Bowlers Skyline from the company site.


"The first thing I would like to talk about is the ASM cap I covered in last week's message. You may have heard that the union that represents American's pilots (the Allied Pilots Association or APA) has indicated that it does not intend to grant the relief required to allow Eagle to proceed with our current plans. That is, to continue accepting RJs and continue operating most of our turboprops and turboprop routes. The APA indicated that they would only agree to provide relief under the cap if Eagle transitions its jet flying and then the remaining turboprop flying to
American Airlines. The suggestion for AA and Eagle to be merged is more complicated and problematic than it appears on the surface. There is no doubt that this idea may be attractive to some of Eagle's people and to the APA leaders. However, it ignores the basic economics which have lead just about every
airline in the world -- certainly, every airline in the United States and Western Europe -- to operate regional aircraft in regional affiliates and not in the mainline carrier. A proposal to radically increase the costs of operating Eagle's fleet, at a time when Eagle and AA continue to lose substantial amounts of money does not seem to make much sense even for the short term, let alone for the long term."


I don't know if this will be the official AA response, but I imagine it will probably say about the same thing. Let's see if they have a counter proposal.
 

FlyinBrian

Office Slut
Joined
Nov 29, 2001
Posts
355
Total Time
1300
summary of peter bowler's comments:

Give up our whipsaw?

HAHAhahaHAHAhahahahaha (deep breath) HahahahHAAHHA ahaha
 

EagleRJ

Are we there yet?
Joined
Nov 27, 2001
Posts
1,490
Total Time
5800
Maybe if we can't do this with AMR consent, we can do a variation of it without their consent. I hope APA and the Eagle MEC are in direct communication on this.
 

FlyinBrian

Office Slut
Joined
Nov 29, 2001
Posts
355
Total Time
1300
Amen Brother.

If APA and EGL ALPA can manage to get together on this, we could have some leverage with AMR...
 

jcb071

Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2002
Posts
10
Total Time
7800
Trust

There has been a bad history here ( Eagle/APA ). Why should I trust you now? Show me some DETAILS, and then, why should I trust you now? Do you remember when Eagle was APA? :rolleyes: I have put my hand into the cookie jar, not to have it slaped away, but to have it bitten off.

Yes APA fine old news, AA paid lump sum, and the rest over time.

55% to 65% of AE paxs connect to AA were the last numbers I saw. To me it seems like more than that ever time I pull up connecting gates for the FA.
 

jcb071

Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2002
Posts
10
Total Time
7800
APA/Eagle --- Flagship

For anyone that is confused. Sorry. APA/Eagle from my last post.
 

Ameriagle

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 11, 2002
Posts
222
Total Time
10,000
Unfounded assumptions....maybe? But at this time their are approximately 1,000 pilots, from the three AMR carriers, on furlough. If Eagle pilots are displaced out of their aircraft by AA and TWA LLC pilots then someone is going to be waiting on the sidelines! You tell me who that would be? Maybe we should not assume that this airline is in growth mode and see the reality of the situation is that we are in a survival mode! Cutting our losses in some markets and moving aircraft that are more economical to others! That is why pilots are on the street...right now!

You cannot tell me that APA's proposal has anybody at Eagle in mind. Lets see how can we get OUR pilots back into the cockpit no matter what the cost to others! That is pretty much how I see it! Talked to an 80 Driver on the way out to the parking lot........he looked me in the eye when he said I might want to try truck driving school to pay the rent cause there is no way APA is going to allow us to fly our airplanes beyond the cap. So big brother, in his LEXUS, is going to let me and my family live off of foodstamps to supposedly protect a couple of turboprop markets! What you have to remember is the jets ARE coming, the markets they will serve HAVE been decided on, and if that puts us over the cap the thin turboprop markets will be the compromise....according to Bowler who personally told me this! Then not only pilots but entire stations will be out of work! I am still pretty new to the airline business and I will never be able to think like a politician but I do believe that what is good for me is not always good for the team!
 

jcb071

Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2002
Posts
10
Total Time
7800
Only AA Counts

Yes I agree. As I have said before APA is only out for themselves, and it will always be that way. Only AA counts. Screw the Eagle.:eek:
 

SF3CAP

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 21, 2001
Posts
78
Total Time
5500
Great idea! Truck driving school. That was nice of him to give you career advice. See, they are looking out for us! HA!
 

Airline Pilot27

High Speed... Aww shut up
Joined
Nov 27, 2001
Posts
82
Total Time
999999
That American pilot was right on. Why should APA allow ASM relief. Has this management ever done anything for its employees out of the kindness of their hearts? You have to think about the big picture. As an Eagle pilot with an ever shrinking seniority number, I too am starting to feel the pinch. But I would not allow the continued degradation of our profession by allowing us to fly more RJ's. We are already way behind our Peers in wages, benefits, etc. Of-course AMR wants to take advantage of us some more by giving us more of RJ's. Well I for one would rather see another solution besides APA simply negating their Scope Clause.
APA is right in being threatened by RJ's. As an RJ pilot I routinely fly routes that were once American routes. WE ARE NO LONGER A FEEDER AIRLINE!!!!!!!!!!.
 

jetexas

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 21, 2001
Posts
833
Total Time
8000
Actually - no kiddin' - a friend of mine DID just that! He was furloughed from Delta after the 11th and is now a truck driver. He makes more $ than he did at Eagle and on probation at Delta. He has some of the same gripes of the Eagle pilot (gone a lot and no women around him on the road), BUT no security, no complaining pax, no whipsawing, etc. Hmmm, hmmm (!)
The ASM cap is not the main threat to us here at Eagle. APA should defend against that! The Eagle outsourcing is the problem as the outsourced airlines are included in our ASM cap.
 
Last edited:

jcb071

Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2002
Posts
10
Total Time
7800
Threatened?????????????????????

Airline Pilot27 said:
That American pilot was right on. Why should APA allow ASM relief. Has this management ever done anything for its employees out of the kindness of their hearts? You have to think about the big picture. As an Eagle pilot with an ever shrinking seniority number, I too am starting to feel the pinch. But I would not allow the continued degradation of our profession by allowing us to fly more RJ's. We are already way behind our Peers in wages, benefits, etc. Of-course AMR wants to take advantage of us some more by giving us more of RJ's. Well I for one would rather see another solution besides APA simply negating their Scope Clause.
APA is right in being threatened by RJ's. As an RJ pilot I routinely fly routes that were once American routes. WE ARE NO LONGER A FEEDER AIRLINE!!!!!!!!!!.

11000 AA pilots. 2400 AE pilots.
AA: Large Aircraft 730 with more on the way.
AE: Small, Very Small Aircraft. What do we have 270?
I do not want to go any further than this. I would be typing for an hour. Do you really want me to believe, that anyone at the almighty and powerfull AA feels threatened by puny little Eagle.:eek: Yes we are way behind the pack, and who is to fault for that. We screwed ourselves before (2012) let's not do it again. You say you fly for AE but you sound like you fly for AA.
 
Last edited:

publisher

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 27, 2001
Posts
592
Total Time
20,000
Money

The Skyline message reflects only that which APA knew when they came up with this proposal.

It always goes back to why do you fly a regional route in the first place. Because you do not see enough revenue on the route at that moment to support a mainline route. You would lose money if you ran the route so you use a regional that either reduces your exposure or might even make a profit as you establih marketshare.

The more your regional cost gets close to your mainline cost, the less incentive or bigger penalty to use the regional. Your competitior may even be able to stick in there past you. Thus you may get less flying the closer the economic come to a mainline route.

You have to remember that there are many more factors here than just the cost of the pilots. Literally all the costs of the regional are less.

American would like to fly more regionals during this time. They will not sacrifice the reason they want to do it over this issue. Everybody loses.
 
Top