Eagle recalls

[MartinFierro]

Good point. I just reread that part. It would still clearly mean an immediate (and large) reduction in the amount of flying Eagle does, which would put more Eagle guys out. Perhaps down the road it would be beneficial, if we were to joing mainline, but I guess I'm just skeptical as to how it would all really play out (our current contract and flow thru case in point).

But here's hoping for the best!

 

[Skywalker]

here's the question I have...they say they will recall AA first (595) then TWA (290) then Eagle (304) furloughs...so that makes 1200 of us on furlough and they never mention that they will not hire off the street before EVERYONE is recalled...big loophole there...

 

[~~~^~~~]

Phase III should be Phase I.

If you have one list, then you automatically have:
(1) The ability to operate the right sized equipment
(2) One union political leadership
(3) No fights over phases I, or II.

The Eagle pilot's concerns that AA/APA will steal their jets and ride off into the sunset seems legitimate. My thought is that if you promise to love us later, you can love us now. Put things in proper order and onelist first. Then everyone will suppport Phases I and II.

Getting onelist through management will be easier as a united group. Together - pilots telling the press "All American Flying by American Pilots" is appealing - it gives you the moral high ground.

 

[3green]

perfictly said... ~~~~+~~~~

 

[publisher]

point

What is suggested will eventually mean, why does one have a commuter in the first place.

From the mainline standpoint, they would prefer not to have any ownership of any commuter/regionals.

They started to own pieces of some so they would have control and information. That way they could direct what was an independant contractor if there were routes that these companies did not want and/or could benefit from some profitable ones.

As the RJ came along, it blurred the picture and has caused problems. This is why I fully expect a reverse of the consolidation that has gone on over the last 5 years.

 

[80drvr]

Phase III should be Phase I.

If you have one list, then you automatically have:
(1) The ability to operate the right sized equipment
(2) One union political leadership
(3) No fights over phases I, or II.

The Eagle pilot's concerns that AA/APA will steal their jets and ride off into the sunset seems legitimate. My thought is that if you promise to love us later, you can love us now. Put things in proper order and onelist first. Then everyone will suppport Phases I and II.

Getting onelist through management will be easier as a united group. Together - pilots telling the press "All American Flying by American Pilots" is appealing - it gives you the moral high ground.

If you've been at AE for any length of time, then I think you know how much AMR cares if everyone at AE supports what they negotiate with APA. It's naive to think that pilots can all sing kumbaya and will win the battle with the corporate spin machine. Do you know how much an ad in USA Today costs.

AMR will respond to the bottom line and leverage. In this case they want to grow regional flying, but have run head first into the contractual limitations on such flying. They need something from APA. Now we'll get to see how much this flying and the associated leverage is really worth. It may be worth all three phases of APA's proposal, none or somewhere in between.

AE pilots will be affected directly by any and all of the potential outcomes. Just remember that the status quo may carry more negative consequences than this industry leading effort to change to the way we man our aircraft.

 

[Ameriagle]

Has anyone read the lastest Skyline message posted by Peter Bowler? He basically called the latest APA proposal comical. At this point I would have to agree that the AMR powers to be would never let the current deal come to fruitation. Is Eagle getting ASM cap relief worth the "skyrocketing cost" of the new operation as proposed? Probably not.

As for this proposal being good for Eagle? Again the devil is in the details. I do not think an Eagle pilot group would ever agree to such a proposal without greater increases in pay and working conditions (yes, I believe the Eagle work group would have a say in such an agreement). Lets see....APA recovers all but a very little bit of our jet flying to start. With the exception of a few Eagle rights pilots every captain on the jet already has or is entitled to a number on AA's list so how would the proposal be good for that pilot? It would not. For the bottom thousand on our list, those who would be ultimately furloughed, how could it be a good deal? And then to be called back to fly the RJ that I am flying right now? Does not seem to be worth my while.

As for the ASM cap I have not heard a comment from any member of APA of the actual benefits of Eagle feed to mainline and how capping our flying would hurt their members. The majority of Eagle flying is to feed big brother at mainline. If Super 80's and F-100's are flying around empty how is that going to stimulate mainline growth to the point where APA can get their pilots off the street now, or at least in the near future? All for what amounts to some turboprop markets in west Texas or Central California! The fact is the jets are bought and paid for and on their way......the markets they are to be used on are probably already been decided on. The compromise will be the small turboprop markets that APA will never have an interest in, thus they will just go away.

This is certainly only my point of view on the current proposal and situation. I hope it works itself out is such a way that all parties will benefit. Have a nice day!

P.S. What ever happened to the APA's 40 million dollar fine and how might that ultimately play into all of this as a bargining chip againt the union?

 

[Skywalker]

AMR has a history of pitting both pilots groups against each other so it ends up getting AMR's way. It can't do that if the pilot groups are together with the threat of the biggest pilots strike in history.

 

[Draginass]

APA has leverage with AMR due to the scope clause/ASM cap. ALPA AE has no contractual leverage that I know of.

Does anyone have a 5 year history on what percentage of AE pax actually connect to a AA mainline flight. I wonder if the percentage is getting smaller every year and the "feed" arguement is a slight of hand.

 

[80drvr]

Has anyone read the lastest Skyline message posted by Peter Bowler? He basically called the latest APA proposal comical. At this point I would have to agree that the AMR powers to be would never let the current deal come to fruitation. Is Eagle getting ASM cap relief worth the "skyrocketing cost" of the new operation as proposed? Probably not.

As for this proposal being good for Eagle? Again the devil is in the details. I do not think an Eagle pilot group would ever agree to such a proposal without greater increases in pay and working conditions (yes, I believe the Eagle work group would have a say in such an agreement). Lets see....APA recovers all but a very little bit of our jet flying to start. With the exception of a few Eagle rights pilots every captain on the jet already has or is entitled to a number on AA's list so how would the proposal be good for that pilot? It would not. For the bottom thousand on our list, those who would be ultimately furloughed, how could it be a good deal? And then to be called back to fly the RJ that I am flying right now? Does not seem to be worth my while.

As for the ASM cap I have not heard a comment from any member of APA of the actual benefits of Eagle feed to mainline and how capping our flying would hurt their members. The majority of Eagle flying is to feed big brother at mainline. If Super 80's and F-100's are flying around empty how is that going to stimulate mainline growth to the point where APA can get their pilots off the street now, or at least in the near future? All for what amounts to some turboprop markets in west Texas or Central California! The fact is the jets are bought and paid for and on their way......the markets they are to be used on are probably already been decided on. The compromise will be the small turboprop markets that APA will never have an interest in, thus they will just go away.

This is certainly only my point of view on the current proposal and situation. I hope it works itself out is such a way that all parties will benefit. Have a nice day!

P.S. What ever happened to the APA's 40 million dollar fine and how might that ultimately play into all of this as a bargining chip againt the union?

-You're making a lot of unfounded assumptions in coming to the conclusion that the bottom of the AE list will be furloughed as a consequence of this proposal. I've been at AE, so I know how poor the flow of factual info is and I can empathize with how some of these extreme ideas gain momentum.

-Much of the new RJ flying is point to point and not feed at all and certainly doesn't comply with intent of the contractual conditions for commuter feed.

-The 45mil fine is settled.

-Peter Bowler can laugh all he wants. A frivelous reaction from mgmt will not induce APA to grant AMR relief of the scope issues.

 

[FlyinBrian]

THis proposal would not necessarily mean more Eagle fuloughs. Remember that we have a lot of parked airplanes right now. The ASM cap means for every jet we take, we have to get rid of at least 2 props. If AA starts taking our jets, this actually allows us to start flying 2 parked props for every jet they take from us. This COULD translate to recalls instead of furloughs. I don't know how anyone could realistically forecast what this would mean for the bottom of Eagle's list given the tremendous complexity of the situation. Not that it really matters because the proposal will not be accepted by AMR. I agree with Jim Higgins that the most significant thing about this proposal is the APA's desire to consolidate.

 

[L.A.pilot]

~~~^~~~, if Phase III occurs before Phase I, there will be very senior Eagle pilots junior to AA furloughees. APA's proposal would get all pilots off the street before the integration takes place. It would be important for any new hiring to occur after the integration.

For those worried about more furloughs at Eagle- with the current situation, Eagle cannot grow while AA is on furlough. This proposal will allow additional flying and opportunity for both Eagle and AA pilots. The most obvious benefit for Eagle pilots would be that they will ALL have an AA seniority number. With the current flow-through, thousands of pilots can be hired at AA before an Eagle pilot gets their number. Any set-back due to being behind furloughed AA pilots would be short term, compared to the benefit of being on the same list. Only new aircraft would go to AA, and the three phase approach would keep most Eagle pilots flying until all AA pilots are recalled (With AA taking the new aircraft, Eagle won't be forced to remove aircraft at the same rate as new deliveries).

Additionally, having one pilot group would benefit all pilots, because they could negotiate together, rather than against each other. AMR may consider the costs too high if mainline flys the RJs- but if APA is willing to negotiate rates similar to Eagle for flying the RJ, it would be more feasible. They still have to compete with RJs from United and Delta that are operating at a low labor cost. However, with the current limitations on AA due to scope, APA may have enough leverage to get rates for the RJs more along the lines of their standard payscale. There would be less labor cost incentive to fly the RJs rather than larger, more economical aircraft. The RJs are efficient and revolutionizing the industry, but it isn't good to have well paid jobs elimated because they can staff the RJs for really cheap.

 

[eagleatr]

Unfortunately, everyone is about to be disappointed. I copied this section from Bowlers Skyline from the company site.


"The first thing I would like to talk about is the ASM cap I covered in last week's message. You may have heard that the union that represents American's pilots (the Allied Pilots Association or APA) has indicated that it does not intend to grant the relief required to allow Eagle to proceed with our current plans. That is, to continue accepting RJs and continue operating most of our turboprops and turboprop routes. The APA indicated that they would only agree to provide relief under the cap if Eagle transitions its jet flying and then the remaining turboprop flying to
American Airlines. The suggestion for AA and Eagle to be merged is more complicated and problematic than it appears on the surface. There is no doubt that this idea may be attractive to some of Eagle's people and to the APA leaders. However, it ignores the basic economics which have lead just about every
airline in the world -- certainly, every airline in the United States and Western Europe -- to operate regional aircraft in regional affiliates and not in the mainline carrier. A proposal to radically increase the costs of operating Eagle's fleet, at a time when Eagle and AA continue to lose substantial amounts of money does not seem to make much sense even for the short term, let alone for the long term."


I don't know if this will be the official AA response, but I imagine it will probably say about the same thing. Let's see if they have a counter proposal.

 

[FlyinBrian]

summary of peter bowler's comments:

Give up our whipsaw?

HAHAhahaHAHAhahahahaha (deep breath) HahahahHAAHHA ahaha

 

[EagleRJ]

Maybe if we can't do this with AMR consent, we can do a variation of it without their consent. I hope APA and the Eagle MEC are in direct communication on this.