Eagle gear up go around in SYR today

[pilotsh]

If there is any aircraft to do what those guys did and not damage the airplane, the Jungle Jet is it. It has a ventral strake located right between the main gear wells that protects the fuel tanks should it be neccessary to land with one or no main gears. Here is a clear pic:

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1221239/L/


The beacon was probably mangled and they put some big scratches on the strake, but otherwise from the pic, it looks like that was the only damage. The jungle jet is a tough lil bird.


What I don't understand is, is it me or do the flaps look like they are up? In a go-around that low, I don't think the flaps can retract that fast....

The reason I say that is, normally, b$tching betty will warn you that your gear is not down, which is not silencable, UNLESS the RA is inop/MELed, then it will give you a gear not down warning at something like 9xxx ft, which IS defeatable. The warning would come back again once flaps were lowered to 22 or 45, but if it wasn't, then b$tching betty would stay silent.

If the nose gear doors are open (it's the only moving gear doors on the ERJ), then most likely the pilots had selected it down, but I guess the question is did they verify down, 3 green?

 

[91100 100 set]

This whole thing is weird. If they did have three green and no warnings, I must compliment the crew for saving the day. I don't think everybody out there would have been able to do the same.

 

[MarineGrunt]

This whole thing is weird. If they did have three green and no warnings, I must compliment the crew for saving the day. I don't think everybody out there would have been able to do the same.

Exactly what I was thinking. If have a feeling that if I had the rush of air, three green and no warnings that I might have turned that into the best 20-ton bob-sled ride ever... It will be interesting to see what happened.

 

[35off]

????

I am surprised EMB drivers have not jumped all over this yet.

If you look closely the flaps look like they may be at 22deg not full 45deg which is normal. Also the nose gear doors are open. For them to be open the gear door electric solenoid would have been malfunctioning, or the pilots actuated the gear handle to the down position which sends an electrical signal from the LGU (landing gear unit) to the nose door electric solenoid. The other ways the doors would be open and the gear not down would be an electrical emergency and the nose door solenoid would loose power and default to the open position. Or if you hand no hydraulic pressure to hold the nose gear doors closed.

I am going to go with that the pilots had lowered the lever thus opening the nose gear doors. So why did the gear not come down? Possibly the LGU malfunctioned?? No hydraulic pressure. Not likely as the crew would have reported this before trying to land.

Now with flaps 22deg and the thrust levers at a low setting (like 30deg or less) the Aural Warning Unit would have stated "landing gear, landing gear". This is regardless if the RA radio altimeter was working or not. If was the unit would have yelled below 1200feet and with any flaps and no gear.

So the Aural Warning Unit had to be not working or the pilots ignoring it (possible not likely) and they had Landing Gear Unit did not signal the Landing Gear electro valve to change position or it just malfunctioned (jammed maybe).

Here is the conclusion and not so good part for the pilots. If the gear did not fall there would NO DN (down indications) in the three boxes on the EICAS. There really is no way around this. There are 2 up/ down indicators (proximity sensors) on each gear. If all of them did fail you would have dashes across the gear indictors on the EICAS. This would indicate in transit or basically that the plane did not know where the gear was. One might fail, but all, not likely.

Finally, the pilots put the gear lever down, they either ignored the aural unit or it was not working (probably not working). They then proceeded to land without verifying gear down and locked indications. This is where I would place my money for a bet. Hopefully I am wrong and the pilots are found to be at no fault.

 

[CA1900]

Now with flaps 22deg and the thrust levers at a low setting (like 30deg or less) the Aural Warning Unit would have stated "landing gear, landing gear".

If they had a 3-green indication, though, wouldn't that also prevent the aural warning from saying anything? If some malfunction gave the computer a down-and-locked indication, it shouldn't make a peep, right?

Here is the conclusion and not so good part for the pilots...

Wow, you're going to save the NTSB a ton of time and money they would have otherwise wasted actually investigating this incident.

Yeah, it could be pilot error, but that doesn't explain the nosegear door. There are a lot of other possibilities here, including chafed wires, computer malfunctions, switch malfunctions, etc. I can almost guarantee there's more to this story than we think there is.

 

[Swaayze]

Like IHF said, rumor is that they somehow had 3 green. Flaps 22 is a normal landing setting at Eagle. IMO it's pretty obvious the go-around was initiated prior to ground contact, otherwise there's really no chance it would have been successful. Perhaps we should all just wait for a report. Hopefully it wasn't crew error.

 

[Headfake14]

...one of the weirdest things I've seen so far...well, I went to this circus once in Mexico..........anyway.......very curious about the outcome.

 

[eglguy]

I saw it just as it was getting back into the air. No mains, but the nose gear doors were open. From what I could gather, their first indication that something was wrong was when the belly hit the runway. That is to say that I don't think an emergency was declared prior, because there was no equipment in place. My FO saw the sparks flying, and by the time I looked up it was about 5-10 feet off of the ground and moving very slowly (almost hanging in the air). We took off shortly after that so, I don't know what happened next. 22L down between F and C is where he got airborne.

Couldn't find your PTT Switch?

 

[B1900 Mech]

"ya, we saw the whole thing" Why didn't Jet Blue 475 warn them?

 

[vectorvictor]

If they had a 3-green indication, though, wouldn't that also prevent the aural warning from saying anything? If some malfunction gave the computer a down-and-locked indication, it shouldn't make a peep, right?


Wow, you're going to save the NTSB a ton of time and money they would have otherwise wasted actually investigating this incident.

Yeah, it could be pilot error, but that doesn't explain the nosegear door. There are a lot of other possibilities here, including chafed wires, computer malfunctions, switch malfunctions, etc. I can almost guarantee there's more to this story than we think there is.

I agree. If you put this many cycles on an airplane eventually you are going to see just about every abnormality. Every once in a while you might get a causal chain long enough to get around the safe guards that prevent things like gear up landings. Don't point the finger at the crew. Regardless of the cause there was obviosly some type of breakdown in the gear warning system. The hats get tilted to the crew for saving the aircraft and the passengers. When it comes to landing gear-up, there are those who have and those who will.

 

[Inconceivable]

It would be interesting to see what would happen if one of us keyed the mike when they were at 75' and yelled "Eagle Flight, Go Around, Go Around".

1. I don't really see this happening with current cockpit culture.
2. I bet the crew who makes the call will still get in trouble by someone for something.
3. #2 --> #1

 

[Steve]

It would be interesting to see what would happen if one of us keyed the mike when they were at 75' and yelled "Eagle Flight, Go Around, Go Around".

1. I don't really see this happening with current cockpit culture.
2. I bet the crew who makes the call will still get in trouble by someone for something.
3. #2 --> #1

Are situations like this ever gone over in training at the airlines?

 

[PreContact]

Perhaps something like this would help in this strange situation, "Airplane on short Ffinal to Runway __, check landing gear."

 

[acaTerry]

I think the FO checked in something like this.."SYR tower, EagleFlight XXXX WITH YOU and no gear...."

 

[dwhsunday]

35off, would you be my sim partner

 

[eglguy]

It would be interesting to see what would happen if one of us keyed the mike when they were at 75' and yelled "Eagle Flight, Go Around, Go Around".

1. I don't really see this happening with current cockpit culture.
2. I bet the crew who makes the call will still get in trouble by someone for something.
3. #2 --> #1

Heard it at ORD in the 90s when CAL almost gear upped. ATCs response.....

Who's the Hero?

 

[Hutcha]

Couldn't find your PTT Switch?

Actually, we were one of the guys talking to tower on the recording posted earlier. We weren't up on tower yet when we saw it, and even if we were, we didn't have time to get off a warning.

Thanks

 

[eglguy]

Actually, we were one of the guys talking to tower on the recording posted earlier. We weren't up on tower yet when we saw it, and even if we were, we didn't have time to get off a warning.

Thanks

After looking at the ground chart in Bos I thought that might be th case. Engaged keyboard too early, sorry. This e-mail was sent to all embraer pilots at eagle today. interesting

Attention All American Eagle Pilots
Re: Update On Yyz-bos Flight
I Would Like To Provide An Update On The Latest
Developments Regarding The Incident That Occurred With
One Of Our Flights In Boston. As Many Are Probably Aware,
Footage Is Available Depicticting The Aircraft Contacting
The Ground With The Landing Gear Retracted. A Team
Comprised Of Representatives From Ae, Embraer, The Ntsb And
The Faa Have Conducted Tests On The Aircraft To Determine If
Any Mechanical Discrepancies Could Be Found. Initial Result
Indicate A Possible Failure Of A Landing Gear Component That
May Have Given False Indications To The Pilots That The
Landing Gear Was Down And Locked Prior To Landing. We Will
Provide Additional Details As They Become Available.
Thanks For Your Continued Professionalism, And Fly Safe.
Jim Winxxxxx

 

[35off]

??

35off, would you be my sim partner

I'm thinking sarcasm since this is FI , but I am not sure..

 

[ricecake]

The nose door moves in sequence with gear and it is whats going to save these guys if anything. All these systems have so much redundancy that its hard to believe that they had three green with the nose door open. It is certainly possible looking at the schematic for the nose gear door to open and the gear itself to stay retracted if there was a landing gear electro valve failure, if this were to happen the airplane would let you know, at least it should as a gear disagree. That message does take 20 seconds to show on EICAS, maybe a late extension played a part? Even then there would be a LANDING GEAR aural warning in the flare. As a former jungle jet driver this leaves me scratching my head.

 

[ICAO]

Can You Say Update Resume....they Wont Be Flying Again.

 

[aewanabe]

Can You Say Update Resume....they Wont Be Flying Again.

Really? I've got 3000 hours in the jungle jet and don't understand how this failure could happen, but I've definitely had stuff happen I can't explain and mx couldn't either. Glad you're not their CP.

 

[buxflyr]

Good thing Dispatch gave them enough fuel to fly for an hour + after the go around. Bet they were getting low.

 

[Flyby1206]

The plane was brought to the hangar and MX repeated the same problem as the crew claimed to have. LG Lever Disagree and they had 3 green showing on EICAS and the RMU, but the gear wasnt actually down

 

[zawillif]

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20070621X00766&key=1

"NTSB Identification: DCA07FA050
Scheduled 14 CFR Part 121: Air Carrier operation of AMERICAN EAGLE AIRLINES
Accident occurred Wednesday, June 20, 2007 in Logan, MA
Aircraft: Embraer 135, registration: N731BE
Injuries: 41 Uninjured.

This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.

An American Eagle EMB-135, tail number N731BE, flight number 4539 initially landed with the gear up at Logan International Airport, Boston, Massachusetts. The crew reported that they had an indication that the gear was down and locked but right before touchdown, they noticed a landing gear lever disagree. They executed a go-around and mechanically lowered the landing gear. They were able to get the gear down and locked and got a visual confirmation that the gear was down. The flaps would not retract due to damage from contacting the runway on the intial landing, but the crew was able to successfully land the airplane. There were 37 passengers and 3 crew members on board. No injuries were reported. Eye witnesses to the first landing stated that they did not see the gear down on the approach."

 

[sstearns2]

It's time to install small cameras on airplanes so we can look at things. Small digital cameras are so cheap now and it would be so simple.

Scott

ps- lets all agree to tell eachother if we see someone on short final with the gear up or someother obvious problem. Who cares if we might look silly or get some grief from ATC.

 

[mavrck]

oh yeah! The components are cheap, but by the time the components get FAA aproved from the testing and wiring etc..... Nothing in aviation is cheap.

 

[yaya]

It's time to install small cameras on airplanes so we can look at things. Small digital cameras are so cheap now and it would be so simple.

Scott

ps- lets all agree to tell eachother if we see someone on short final with the gear up or someother obvious problem. Who cares if we might look silly or get some grief from ATC.

I see this comment over and over on here,,,, sounds like you are trying to pass the buck. Take responsibility for your own actions. I am sure that if somebody was paying attention, noticed, and had the opportunity to chime in, they would. You should know that it gets pretty busy at times and we don't always have time to police the configuration of other aircraft on short final...

 

[00Dog]

I see this comment over and over on here,,,, sounds like you are trying to pass the buck. Take responsibility for your own actions. I am sure that if somebody was paying attention, noticed, and had the opportunity to chime in, they would. You should know that it gets pretty busy at times and we don't always have time to police the configuration of other aircraft on short final...

That isn't what he is saying. Notice the "if we see..."

 

[ex j-41]

It's time to install small cameras on airplanes so we can look at things. Small digital cameras are so cheap now and it would be so simple.

Scott

ps- lets all agree to tell eachother if we see someone on short final with the gear up or someother obvious problem. Who cares if we might look silly or get some grief from ATC.

I smell a republican.... Go spy on your neighbours wife if you really have to. Spy camera's in airplanes are a bad idea. Work 15hrs one day, stay in a crappy hotel that night, next day take a little cat nap and your walking the unemployment line.