E-190s at AWA/US Mainline?

[banger]

About the 190 payrate at B6 it is not great but ........time and half over 70, nuff said. Total compensation puts CHQ back in it's place, a regional. I am also very disapointed at all of the pilots we've had leave the property to go to CHQ and Republic, shame on you.

?????????

 

[FlyinPiker]

I seriously doubt anyone will ever see a 190 at USAirways.....with the ability to fly (85? - I've lost track) 170's at Republic and 93 CRJ900's at (Mesa, PSA, AWAC) Express they will be set. Minimum fleet count at mainline will be in the 370 range I think so they have the ability to outsource an additional 50% of the airframes they want (not to mention all the 50 seaters they want). Mgmt continues to amaze me with their stupidity - why in the world would you want to dump the 170s and virtually guarantee the use of CRJ900s instead of the superior product of the 190?

I agree with you. Some additional thoughts:

The MDA/REP deal isn't out of the woods yet. If the truely intend on operating the 190 maybe this whole thing won't go through (hide behind a court battle).

on the flip side.......

Airbus and the Canadians both seem to be pretty good at offering some pretty sweet financing deals so why not........

Dump the 170's and give them to Republic who can probably operate them cheaper. Order more A-319's from Airbus ( I believe they are some type of investor in this whole game) instead of 190's. Then take advantage of clearance prices on the 900's. An added bonus....with additional A-319's they can operate even more 900's, with 190's they cannot.

In the end. Mainline gets more "true mainline aircraft" and management gets the freedom to keep adding CRJ's above 93.

Piker

 

[SUNDOWN]

?????????

It was a bad joke.

 

[Lampshade]

This is a quote from the filing:


The US Airways and America West collective bargaining agreements will be
modified to allow for a combined maximum of ninety-three (93) CRJ-900, or other aircraft within the seating and maximum take-off weight limits specified in Paragraph B above, to be operated in revenue service at any given time at Express Carriers except that for every two (2) aircraft in excess of the combined 360 aircraft (excluding EMB 190 aircraft) operated at both US Airways and America West, that are added to revenue service in the mainline fleet, the Company may allow three (3) additional CRJ-900, or other aircraft within the seating and maximum take-off weight limits specified in Paragraph B above, to be operated in revenue service at Express carriers.

The math I believe is this to honor AWA scope:

38 current CRJ900 operated by Mesa (In AWA scope)
27 E170 are/or will be operated by Republic (not in AWA scope)

65 total current A/C

28 more A/C to be delivered that stay below 88 seats/90,000lbs

93 total in new TA'd AWA/US scope

 

[FlyinPiker]

This is a quote from the filing:

The US Airways and America West collective bargaining agreements will be
modified to allow for a combined maximum of ninety-three (93) CRJ-900, or other aircraft within the seating and maximum take-off weight limits specified in Paragraph B above

The math I believe is this to honor AWA scope:

38 current CRJ900 operated by Mesa (In AWA scope)
27 E170 are/or will be operated by Republic (not in AWA scope)

65 total current A/C

28 more A/C to be delivered that stay below 88 seats/90,000lbs

93 total in new TA'd AWA/US scope

I see what you are catching, 28 more 900's sounds familiar to the RFP that was put out awhile back, but then again that was prior to these lastest developments. I'm curious.......

All paragragh B says is a maximum seating of 88 seats and/or max weight up to 90,000lbs. If you are going to add the 170's to this number why not PSA's 700's or all of Mesa, CHQ's, TSA's, and ZW's 50 seaters.

I'm probably missing something.

 

[Lampshade]

The AWA pilot contract has limited the number of Express planes with seating for 71 or more to 38. 70 seats and below not included.

 

[fam62c]

The AWA pilot contract has limited the number of Express planes with seating for 71 or more to 38. 70 seats and below not included.

I might be wrong but I read the transition agreement and I think that it supercedes the AWA agreement.

 

[Lampshade]

B. Section 1.D.2 of the America West collective bargaining agreement will be modified to increase the maximum seating capacity of jet aircraft flown by Express carriers to a maximum seating capacity of 88 seats (or up to 90 seats if there are no first class seats) and/or certificated maximum take off weight of up to 90,000 pounds.
C. The US Airways and America West collective bargaining agreements will be modified to allow for a combined maximum of ninety-three (93) CRJ-900, or other aircraft within the seating and maximum take-off weight limits specified in Paragraph B above, to be operated in revenue service at any given time at Express Carriers except that for every two (2) aircraft in excess of the combined 360 aircraft (excluding EMB 190 aircraft) operated at both US Airways and America West, that are added to revenue service in the mainline fleet, the Company may allow three (3) additional CRJ-900, or other aircraft within the seating and maximum take-off weight limits specified in Paragraph B above, to be operated in revenue service at Express carriers.

AWA scope is about 10 pages long it won't be replaced with what was in that TA alone, just modified.

 

[Swaayze]

Thanks Lampshade, that's a little better....but why not just cap it where they are today? They just keep on giving.

 

[Lampshade]

heres an article to clear it up a little more:


http://www.flightinternational.com/Articles/2005/09/20/Navigation/177/201663/+US +Airways+free+to+expand+90-seat+or+under+fleet.html

 

[General Lee]

So, did this new agreement help the USAir/AWA mainline pilots, or hurt them? Sounds like they agreed to fly the E190s at mainline, but also gave Mesa many many more CR9s, which can carry 86 passengers. Where are the E190 orders at mainline? I thought CHQ had 25 on order?


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Lampshade]

So, did this new agreement help the USAir/AWA mainline pilots, or hurt them? Sounds like they agreed to fly the E190s at mainline, but also gave Mesa many many more CR9s, which can carry 86 passengers. Where are the E190 orders at mainline? I thought CHQ had 25 on order?


Bye Bye--General Lee

Help or hurt that is the question, too early to tell. 28 more CRJ900 like A/C, could be 170/175 or CRJ900, my guess the 170's. IMO Mesa is on the way out with USAirways, look for Air Wisc or other feeder to do a 1 for 1 exchange 50 to 170/CRJ900 (got to get rid of the 50's). USAirways has 25 options for 190's, possible delivery after 2008.

 

[Guppiedriver]

Joe Merchant,


I find it funny how you keep referring to "your" flying. Would regionals exist without a mainline to service? Is there really such a thing as "your" flying? Independence Air is demonstrating how viable a regional is as a stand alone company.

Right on!

 

[Guppiedriver]

This is a very simple message: regionals should NOT be flying 100 seat aircraft at lower regional wages. Instead, regional pilots who want to fly 100 seaters SHOULD APPLY to the majors/LCCs that will invariably offer higher long-term pay than the regionals.... Do you think CHQ will pay you more over time than a Jet Blue or Air Tran? Don't bring the 100-seat wage level down to regional levels - instead, keep 100 seater wages respectable and keep them in the majors (even though Jet Blue's E190 wage is too low - hopefully that will change in time).

Regional pilots who want to keep 100 seat flying should get off their a$$es and apply to the LCCs or mainline carriers that are hiring... That's my $0.02.

Excellent post!

 

[Green]

What I don't understand is why we(awa) didn't try and capture the 170 flying in the transition agreement. They have been flown by midatlantic by furloughed mainline pilots and those from the CEL list, so why not keep them inhouse?

 

[Lampshade]

The 170 fight is coming up.

 

[PHXFLYR]

]

Starting at ML on the 170/190 you have somewhere to go up to. Once you're on that plane at a regional you're done. It's all about progression and I'd rather have an opportunity to progress at ML FROM a midsize jet, not at a regional TO a midsize jet.[/QUOTE]


In the late 80's early 90's AWA operated Dash 8 turbo props on their own
certificate and with their own flight and cabin crews (Imagine That!!) All those pilots that flew the mighty DeHavilland are pretty senior Capts flying our Boeing and Airbus aircraft today.



PHXFLYR

 

[FlyinScotsman]

I guess my gripe is with the pay rate. It is just perpetuating the problem that everyone in this thread is complaining about. The regional guy will just want to stay where he is and try to make life better and if that means taking mainline fly, planes etc. so be it. I don't agree, but that is the way I am seeing it right now it won't change a thing.

I posted this earlier in this thread and everyone is so frickin happy that the mainline guys are going to fly these E-190's, and the rate doesn't matter so much right now, that I don't think some of you are not thinking this through all of the way. I think it is wonderful to think that one could get hired on at a mainline carrier flying a (insert any 90-100 seat airplane) and end up flying something much larger and the larger pay to boot. I would love to be in that situation. The problem is with those low pay rates, not many are going to leave thier regional job or other flying job to fly for JetBlue or whomever, when all they have to do is stay at their regional and try to fight for more flying, bigger planes and higher pay. Unless JB and others are going to hire low time pilots into the E-190 like the regionals do. If that happens then, now we are talkin! If they still need 1000 PIC turbine etc. then what I have said before it won't change a thing as far as regionals wanting to keep and expand what they have and who cares.

 

[kngarthur]

The 170 fight is coming up.

And your going to lose!

 

[Doug Parker]

The 170 fight is coming up.


And your going to lose!


You Little Knob Goblin - Haven't you learned the difference between YOUR and YOU'RE ???

And You're going to lose, Beyotch !!





.

 

[surfnfly]

What about all the mainline guys that took jobs with any of the majors in the past that paid less 30K for the 1st yr. It is a choice you must make. Look at Continental yr 1 pay today. Every single pilot at a major today made that sacrifice and some probally more than once. Why should the regional guys today not have to do the same. If you don't want to give up your senority to go junior on a new list or take the pay cut fine, then stay at the regional level. Just stop bitching about not getting bigger and bigger planes.

 

[tricky]

CHQ does pay more in the long run than JetBlue does. I think after year 7 or 8 it surpasses JetBlues payscale. check it! http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/

year 12 ooops! Its pretty much the same!

Cant wait to work for JetBlue, they compare their pay scale to the regional airline that everyone calls the undercutters of the regionals. AHHH yes thats why I went to college, to fly a big jet for less money than a tow truck driver.

 

[ATRCA]

Why is it OK that we have been losing jobs for years to SJ/RJ flying, with you literally having a job at our expense, with thousands on the street, yet you cry like a 2 year old at the proposition of these jobs becoming mainline positions?

I can just imagine the wailing if any Regionals actually start furloughing or expeirencing the back sliding that's gone on for years now at the mainlines.

Personally I think we sooner we recapture this flying and get everyone on the same list the sooner we stop the whipsawing and outsourcing raceto the bottom.

I guess it's only OK if it pains mainline careers, it that it?

Your a little off here dude. Regionals have furloughed, hundreds in fact. My company (XJT) furloughed almost 500 guys to make room for mainline pilots coming back. I was a Captain on Sept. 11th. I gave 3.5 yrs of time in the left seat and the pay that goes along with it for mainline pilots. I've got no beef with that anymore but your assertion that things have been fantastic at the regional level in simply wrong and you should really know better.

There has been pleny of $hit to go around, granted not all RJ operators have felt the same pain. I can tell you that the folks who had flow thru agreements prior to 9-11 (XJT, AE) have given plenty.

In any rate, I'm glad the larger a/c are going to mainline. More opportunity for me. Adios.

 

[michael707767]

In any rate, I'm glad the larger a/c are going to mainline. More opportunity for me. Adios.

someone who gets it.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Joe Merchant,

You had me at hello, but your post on this thread has me turning the volume down.......real low.

It seems you are personally pissed at ALPA. Being a volunteer is one way to get a great understanding of how the organization works. Just like jets, it has limitations and pilots have expectations. Were you sleeping during the Leadership Conf.? Probably not....

All,

Lot's of pilots scratch thier heads and wonder why the mainline flying didn't include 50 seaters. Before any more is discussed here is an important bullet point...

Air Line Pilots DO NOT Run Airlines

What this means is... management gets to have operational control over thier company.

The Legacy carriers were determined to use vendors. After the Regional companies were contracted it wouldn't work to have mainline pilots show up to fly the airplanes. IOW, picture your regional now conducting its operation but its pilots didn't work for your regional. The regional vendor has a right to maintian operation control. Can it do so with pilots who aren't employed by the regional? How would training be done?

Guys, this whole issue is incredibly complex. The solutions aren't as easy as "they should just fix it" or "ALPA National sucks."

The pilots with the quick fix FlightInfo message boards solutions offer, if EVER!, non-pragmatic solutions that don't grasps the cause and effect. Remember, you fly jets really well, but when it comes down to solving multi faceted problems with several players at the table, each of whom are looking out for thier own interests, it takes experience, maturity, patience, social skills and yes, politics. Something 95% of pilots (people in general really) don't have.....

So, instead of jumping up and down like a howling screech monkey in a zoo, why not get educated and informed. Then you can properly address your representatives on your issues. Now they are the ones who are armed with your informed concerns and they can address the multi faceted issues with several players.....

Isn't that better than creating expectations based on your own assumptions and being pissed off, fustrated and disenfranchised?

 

[hoover]

Just heard from our CEO that while USA/AWA ALPA has captured the E-190 90 seat flying, they are allowing the CRJ-900 90 seat flying to go out for bid. My question is: What's the difference? Why is everyone so hot to keep 190 flying but perfectly willing to give up 90 seat CRJ flying?

 

[BeCareful!]

Just heard from our CEO that while USA/AWA ALPA has captured the E-190 90 seat flying, they are allowing the CRJ-900 90 seat flying to go out for bid. My question is: What's the difference? Why is everyone so hot to keep 190 flying but perfectly willing to give up 90 seat CRJ flying?

Hoover -

That's a good question, and how the airline chooses to build the fleet will be interesting.

From a passenger standpoint, there's almost no comparison. The E170 vs. the CRJ700 is hardly a contest, as a CRJ full of 70 adults is extreemly tight. If they happen to be a group of large adults (wieghtwatchers) then just forget it for anything other than about 45 minutes.

The E-Jets are at the other end of the spectrum, so comfortable in fact that lots of pax prefer them to larger jets like the A320 and 737.

I know a lot of people think that airlines don't give a crap about passenger comfort, but I've always thought statements like that are a bit naive. I think someone is looking after that stuff, and that the E190s will be used in special markets.

Why pilots seem to care more about that flying is curious, but I think they see a future with lots more E190s in it than CRJ900s.

 

[UALjan15]

Why is everyone so hot to keep 190 flying but perfectly willing to give up 90 seat CRJ flying?

I don't think it is so much that everyone is willing to give up 90 seat CRJ flying, more that that horse has already escaped the barn. For the reasons stated above regarding pax comfort and preference, I think the E-190 will eventually be the hot property. Ultimately, economics will dictate whether the CRJ-900 or E-190 rule the <100 seat market, and that will include issues of pax preference, crew costs, and overall seat cost.