E-190s at AWA/US Mainline?

[Crzipilot]

Crzipilot;

Would you please provide the source for those pay rates?

I do not see any thing on our web site but I may have missed it.

Thanks.

http://www.donlinrecano.net/dr201/mwc/04-13819/dk003193-0005.pdf


It's in the transition agreement which was filed with the BK court the other day.

 

[mdanno808]

I think this is a bit overkill. I am however in full support of an industry wide payscale determined by aircraft type. For example CRJ CA year 1=$65/hr to year 12=$100. The race to the bottom has to end and as long as airlines can whipsaw work groups against eachother it will continue. Does anyone know why ALPA has not explored this yet. It seems to work great for the plumbing profession.

BBB

Great in theory, but ALPA Nat'l cannot collectively bargain against every airline in the U.S. at once. Each airline has different circumstances, which will inevitably create different pay scales, benefit's etc. For example, look at what United pilot's made in the year 2000, versus what they make now. For a carrier in deep financial trouble, (NWA is a prime example) unions are obviously going to be a little more giving at the negotiating table to ensure the airline's success, while a carrier like SWA is posting profit's, and giving labor pay raises. Here lies the biggest problem. Circumstances will vary from carrier to carrier, and from year to year. In a stable environment (regulation?), the idea of an across the board payscale would be possible, but not in todays airline industry. Airlines, and union's need flexibility when it comes to negotiations. The only option we, as pilot's have, is to elect people we trust and respect to our MEC, and to vote for what we feel is fair.

 

[FlyinScotsman]

True, but the whole point of a lot of this thread is that at JB you can move over to the Airbus and top out at 139/hr. The most you'll ever make at CHQ is 104. (not to mention stock options and better bennies at JB)

In the "long run" you'll do much much better at JB.

While I agree with E-190 at the mainline theory......What about the regional guy who has put in his time in a t-prop/RJ, with crappy pay and crappy schedules. It is now time for him to move on so he can further his career he wants a mainline job with mainline PAY. He will have to take a subsantial pay cut to start over at JB with those pay rates and then wait another 10yrs to make any kind of money. I don't know, but all of the guys and gals at the regionals are not 20 yrs old and can't take forever or take the pay cut for that long. I know that usually going from Capt pay at a regional to a mainline carrier can be a pay cut for the first year or two, but that is about it. Now with these pay rates it could take forever before you recoup your costs.

So I guess my gripe is with the pay rate. It is just perpetuating the problem that everyone in this thread is complaining about. The regional guy will just want to stay where he is and try to make life better and if that means taking mainline fly, planes etc. so be it. I don't agree, but that is the way I am seeing it right now it won't change a thing.

 

[Flying Horses]

True, but the whole point of a lot of this thread is that at JB you can move over to the Airbus and top out at 139/hr. The most you'll ever make at CHQ is 104. (not to mention stock options and better bennies at JB)

In the "long run" you'll do much much better at JB.

I just wanted to clarify that the highest pay rate at CHQ/Republic is $120/hour. Don't forget, the contract has a new pay scale every year till 2007. The rates on airlinepilotcentral are 2004 rates.

 

[wms]

While I agree with E-190 at the mainline theory......What about the regional guy who has put in his time in a t-prop/RJ, with crappy pay and crappy schedules. It is now time for him to move on so he can further his career he wants a mainline job with mainline PAY. He will have to take a subsantial pay cut to start over at JB with those pay rates and then wait another 10yrs to make any kind of money. I don't know, but all of the guys and gals at the regionals are not 20 yrs old and can't take forever or take the pay cut for that long. I know that usually going from Capt pay at a regional to a mainline carrier can be a pay cut for the first year or two, but that is about it. Now with these pay rates it could take forever before you recoup your costs.

Starting at ML on the 170/190 you have somewhere to go up to. Once you're on that plane at a regional you're done. It's all about progression and I'd rather have an opportunity to progress at ML FROM a midsize jet, not at a regional TO a midsize jet.

 

[Green]

Well it's good that we got the 190 despite the terrible payrates. However we gave up the farm when it comes to crj 900's at express. They can now operate 95 of the things at express and for every 2 airplanes we buy at mainline they can operate 3 more 900's. what is the incentive for management to even buy 190's when they can operate a large fleet of 900's at Mesa prices?

 

[GuinessGuy]

That was most likely the idea from the get go.

Management: "yeah, mainline can fly the 190 for the rate you request.
The 190 will stay at mainline. For that, we need you to
let Mesa fly more CRJ900's."

Mainline Pilot MEC: "Ok, great. If 190's stay at mailine and you can do
what you want with the CRJ900's."

Management: (Thinking to themselves after the oneway meeting)
"those idiots. We only had options on those stupid 190's.
We had no intention on exercising those options. Get
Mesa on the horn and have tell them that we want
them to fly 50 more."

 

[~~~^~~~]

Green:

That is the reason why scope has to be inclusive. Mainline might have bought a phantom jet, after all, the CASM is slightly lower on the XXL CRJ.

I simply do not understand why ALPA continues to promote the creation of alter ego low cost carriers within a brand. Obviously the US Air pilots low balled the E190 rates to "recapture" that airplane at mainline. Will the Delta pilots do the same, undercutting ASA's nearly 7 year old contract to keep airplanes from going to connection? Then who is next?

The race for the bottom started with ALPA's apartied system of separating pilots into preferred and non preferred carriers. Time for things to change.

~~~^~~~

 

[GuinessGuy]

Those idiots at Alpa need to attend focus training. The re-education that they recieved from Pol Pot is outdated and detrimental to our current profession. Alpa needs revamping and/or purging of the present money grubbing fools.

 

[wms]

CHQ does pay more in the long run than JetBlue does. I think after year 7 or 8 it surpasses JetBlues payscale. check it! http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/

year 12 ooops! Its pretty much the same!

You can upgrade to the Airbus at CHQ?

 

[FDJ2]

Green:

That is the reason why scope has to be inclusive.

But then again the RJDC doesn't believe any pilot group can have scope language which controls outsourcing of an airlines code. The RJDC folks seek to have no limits on outsourcing, regardless of wholly owned status or aircraft type/size.

Quote: Q&A with an informed RJDC supporter

1. Can the DAL pilot group, or any pilot group own/control their code?




In a word, NO. The “code” under which your airline operates is not owned by the Delta pilots and it is not controlled by the Delta pilots. The “code” is owned by Delta Air Lines, Inc. and they alone “control” it. The same applies to other “codes” owned by other airlines.

 

[Bigbeerbelly]

Great in theory, but ALPA Nat'l cannot collectively bargain against every airline in the U.S. at once. Each airline has different circumstances, which will inevitably create different pay scales, benefit's etc. For example, look at what United pilot's made in the year 2000, versus what they make now. For a carrier in deep financial trouble, (NWA is a prime example) unions are obviously going to be a little more giving at the negotiating table to ensure the airline's success, while a carrier like SWA is posting profit's, and giving labor pay raises. Here lies the biggest problem. Circumstances will vary from carrier to carrier, and from year to year. In a stable environment (regulation?), the idea of an across the board payscale would be possible, but not in todays airline industry. Airlines, and union's need flexibility when it comes to negotiations. The only option we, as pilot's have, is to elect people we trust and respect to our MEC, and to vote for what we feel is fair.

I guess what I meant was an ALPA minimum acceptable pay per aircraft type. If the bottom line is drawn than no company can negotiate below that line. If they do, ALPA will not endorse the contract and they will be left without national representation. There is the problem: ALPA is scared to lose the members. It is really a catch 22 I guess. The only way the race to the bottom can be stopped is scope clauses. Unfortunately those are just another negotiating point. The clause should be simple: Any and all revenue flying for or in support of XYZ airline will be done by pilots on the XYZ seniority list. This wouldn't even be an issue if mainline pilots stopped this 10 years ago. Can someone explain why mainline MECs allowed regionals to take their flying. I don't think there were any regionals before 18 years ago, what happened?

BBB

 

[Heavy Set]

Green:

That is the reason why scope has to be inclusive. Mainline might have bought a phantom jet, after all, the CASM is slightly lower on the XXL CRJ.

I simply do not understand why ALPA continues to promote the creation of alter ego low cost carriers within a brand. Obviously the US Air pilots low balled the E190 rates to "recapture" that airplane at mainline. Will the Delta pilots do the same, undercutting ASA's nearly 7 year old contract to keep airplanes from going to connection? Then who is next?

The race for the bottom started with ALPA's apartied system of separating pilots into preferred and non preferred carriers. Time for things to change.

~~~^~~~

My guess is that you'll see Jet Blue E190 wage rates for the E190 at Delta to keep the flying in house with the likelihood of further negotiations down the road. My Delta buddies tell me there are strong indications that the E190 will join the fleet in the near future. Unfortunately, I would also expect quite a few 50 seaters to be parked given the poor operating economics...

 

[General Lee]

Grinstein mentioned in the ATL crew lounge a few days ago that Delta mainline will get any new 100 seaters, since that was a market for Delta mainline. Oh, the RJDC will be pi$$ed......


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[fam62c]

This whole discussion is interesting but.....

I don't care where the 100 seaters go. I don't think airline management has any problem putting them at the "majors" as long as the cost structure for the planes works. It was never going to happen with astronomical pay rates, DB pension plans and inefficient work rules.

I don't know if scope clauses and pay rates for airplanes that aren't on the property and may never be is really worth even discussing. This company still has to survive. There's a lot of challenges with a merger (the seniority integration should be fun to watch) and I doubt that anyone is in a big hurry to add another new airplane type into the mix. It's going to be complicated enough making a smooth-running, economically viable carrier out of these two airlines. Let's see if this company will even exist 2 years from now then worry about 100 seaters. It's going to be a lot harder after October to run into court and have all of your wishes granted by the bankruptcy genie if things don't work out. The free ride for deadbeat, welching debtors is coming to an end. This airline will still have to compete with simpler and more efficiently run LCC's in the East. USAirways couldn't do it, let's see if the "new" USAirways can.

 

[bvt1151]

But then again the RJDC doesn't believe any pilot group can have scope language which controls outsourcing of an airlines code. The RJDC folks seek to have no limits on outsourcing, regardless of wholly owned status or aircraft type/size.

You sure do spend a lot of time feeding false information about the RJDC. Thankfully most pilots have the ability to weed your false info from the truth.

 

[wms]

Grinstein mentioned in the ATL crew lounge a few days ago that Delta mainline will get any new 100 seaters, since that was a market for Delta mainline. Oh, the RJDC will be pi$$ed......


Bye Bye--General Lee

I hope you're right. But up till now whenever GG said something the opposite has happened. Remember CRJs shouldn't fly more than 2 hours? Our flights more than 2 hours has gone way up since the TA. Not shrinking to profitability, etc. He's been "opposite Jerry".

 

[fam62c]

Grinstein mentioned in the ATL crew lounge a few days ago that Delta mainline will get any new 100 seaters, since that was a market for Delta mainline. Oh, the RJDC will be pi$$ed......


Bye Bye--General Lee

I think that Grinstein tells people what they want to hear, right up until the time he tells them something else. Also, I don't think the RJDC will be upset. I don't think (to the extent I understand their arguments) they have ever argued with DAL's right to determine where they will put flying that the corporation (not the DALPA pilots) owns and controls. These will be new airplanes that Delta will possibly be getting (with money they don't have) and I think it would be absolutely fine with the RJDC if DAL guys fly them, that's never been at issue.

With or without the RJDC and ALPA; work protection provisions that attempt to override economic reality never hold up in any private industry. If DAL management thinks that the 100 seaters can be operated profitably by mainline they will probably put them there, however, you are at the mercy of the bankruptcy court and I would be very surprised if DALPA gets any written guarantee that the 100 seaters HAVE to be at mainline. Just look at this property for guidance; the USAirways guys "got" the EMB-190's but the price was a minimum of 93 CRJ-900's flying around. That's like the company saying that you can have all the 737 flying as long as we can let someone else operate a minimum of 93 A-319's on our behalf.......does that make sense?

 

[michael707767]

I think that Grinstein tells people what they want to hear, right up until the time he tells them something else.

I was there. And actually I don't think its a question of GG wanting to give the Delta pilots the 100 seat flying as much as they are finallly figuring out when you outsource, you give another company the opportunity to make a profit with that segment of the market, and you see no financial benefit. Look at the RJs. Many of our regionals are profitable. Yet Delta is losing money. Its almost impossible to enter into a code share deal that enables both Delta and the code share partner to make money. Same applies to international, thats why you will see expansion of DL international flying.

 

[Heavy Set]

I was there. And actually I don't think its a question of GG wanting to give the Delta pilots the 100 seat flying as much as they are finallly figuring out when you outsource, you give another company the opportunity to make a profit with that segment of the market, and you see no financial benefit. Look at the RJs. Many of our regionals are profitable. Yet Delta is losing money. Its almost impossible to enter into a code share deal that enables both Delta and the code share partner to make money. Same applies to international, thats why you will see expansion of DL international flying.

One thing is for certain, Grinstein is not a big fan of the 50 seaters... Look for more reductions in 50 seat flying with the inherently poor operating economics. Not many people can argue that point - including the folks at Indy Air......

You certinaly won't find CRJs operating on routes populated by LCCs like they have been over the last few years. They will only work on those hub-connector routes with no competition (e.g., Salt Lake City to Pasco or Bozeman).

 

[FDJ2]

You sure do spend a lot of time feeding false information about the RJDC. Thankfully most pilots have the ability to weed your false info from the truth.

It comes directly from Surplus, so is he uninformed or misleading, or are you uninformed or misleading? You know, you might be both.

 

[outtahere]

First of all, who is going to finance these 100 seat airplanes for DAL? Secondly, if a military pilot has to come out and fly a turboprop then so the heck what. Military pilots deserve respect, but they do not deserve a free pass to a major just because. I have endured some trully horrible jobs to get to this point in my carrer, and I believe that I and others like me deserve that major job alot more than a military pilot. Thirdly, the reason mainline is losing scope is due to one reason, EGO, especially at DAL these pricks are unbelievable. They were to good for the Crj-200, the Crj-700, and now they b!tch about getting fourloughed. If the obsession of the size of your d!ck gets in the way of you making a logical decision then I don't feel sorry for you. Now, I think everyone at the regional level would have loved to have flown a turboprop for a while and then gone on to a major. However, you greedy jokers priced the market to the point that your companys could not make money, now there are no mainline jobs, and you want us to hold your hand and not try to get a 100 seat airplane? Then you tell us that when you do start to hire again those seats are reserved for your military buddies. You know what, KISS MY @SS! I was once a supporter for the greater good, but you egomaniacal pricks have totally pissed me off and now you know what, I couldn't care less what happens to your jobs. After all you all seem to want to see the 50's parked and us out on the street, so I think I want all the domestic flying and see you take a walk.

 

[100fly]

WOW! You are T.O'd

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Someone needs to switch to decaf.

 

[Green]

outtahere,

You say Dal pilots priced themeselves out of the market and deserve what they got? Just out of curiosity what is the upper limit of a fair wage? Are SWA pilots pricing themeselves out of the market? They have captains making over 190/hour to fly a 737. That's more than a Ual 747 captain. Are SWA pilots greedy?

What about ABX. They have DC9 captains making 200/hour to fly a plane that is equivalent in size to an emb-190. Jal captains can exceed 400k/year; Cathay pacific guys top 300k. I get so tired of pilots that blame mismanagement on labor costs.


By the way the AVERAGE air traffic controller wage is in excess of 140k/year.

 

[On Your Six]

First of all, who is going to finance these 100 seat airplanes for DAL? Secondly, if a military pilot has to come out and fly a turboprop then so the heck what. Military pilots deserve respect, but they do not deserve a free pass to a major just because. I have endured some trully horrible jobs to get to this point in my carrer, and I believe that I and others like me deserve that major job alot more than a military pilot. Thirdly, the reason mainline is losing scope is due to one reason, EGO, especially at DAL these pricks are unbelievable. They were to good for the Crj-200, the Crj-700, and now they b!tch about getting fourloughed. If the obsession of the size of your d!ck gets in the way of you making a logical decision then I don't feel sorry for you. Now, I think everyone at the regional level would have loved to have flown a turboprop for a while and then gone on to a major. However, you greedy jokers priced the market to the point that your companys could not make money, now there are no mainline jobs, and you want us to hold your hand and not try to get a 100 seat airplane? Then you tell us that when you do start to hire again those seats are reserved for your military buddies. You know what, KISS MY @SS! I was once a supporter for the greater good, but you egomaniacal pricks have totally pissed me off and now you know what, I couldn't care less what happens to your jobs. After all you all seem to want to see the 50's parked and us out on the street, so I think I want all the domestic flying and see you take a walk.

How did UAL secure something like $2.5-3 Billion in exit financing? How did Air Canada (bankrupt this time last year) at least secure funding for 777s and 787s even if the labor situation has thrown a wrench into that deal?

When financing aircraft, you are looking into the future and whether the airline has the infrastructure and the routes to support the use of these aircraft - enough to generate the revenue to cover the debt service. In this case, UAL and DAL have strong route structures, qualified pilots and the infrastructure to support new replacement aircraft. On top of that, the aircraft lessors know that if things go t!ts up, there will be a market for these aircraft elsewhere - maybe Asia or India.... It's a roll of the dice, but you can bet the interest rates are high enough to mitigate a lot of the risk.

 

[SUNDOWN]

About the 190 payrate at B6 it is not great but ........time and half over 70, nuff said. Total compensation puts CHQ back in it's place, a regional. I am also very disapointed at all of the pilots we've had leave the property to go to CHQ and Republic, shame on you.

 

[stillflyn]

CHQ does pay more in the long run than JetBlue does. I think after year 7 or 8 it surpasses JetBlues payscale. check it! http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/

year 12 ooops! Its pretty much the same!

Does CHQ pay 1.5% for everything above 70 hrs? Give JetBlue some time to acutally fly the 190 and prove it's self. The initial payrates were set up to get investors onboard. When we start making money you'll see a payraise.

 

[stillflyn]

Why all the turmoil about the dang E-190. It was never a problem when Biz Ex was running the Bae146 for Delta Connection. It's not a problem that Mesaba is running the Bae146 for NWA Airlink. It's not a problem for Air Wisconsin running the Bae146 for United Express.
This "line-in-the-sand" should have been drawn fifteen years ago.
I agree, I think the E-190 and the old Bae146 should not be and never been "express/connection/airlink" branded platforms.
This fight is almost two decades late, but you want them now because the industry niche is the "large smalljet."

Why didn't mainline crews want them "back in the day"???

Republics E-190 Capt rates are better than B6. With a fairly good contract to boot.

Why is it OK for B6 to operate the E-190 and not Republic???[/QUOTE]


Well to start... when Jetblue flys the 190 there are no other pilots at any other airline that are being furloughed as a direct result. When you fly a 190, a Delta F/O is going to be furloughed or a UAL F/O will be kept on the street even longer.

CHQ 190 Capt rates are not better than Jetblue's.. see above post.

Stillflyn

 

[Swaayze]

I seriously doubt anyone will ever see a 190 at USAirways.....with the ability to fly (85? - I've lost track) 170's at Republic and 93 CRJ900's at (Mesa, PSA, AWAC) Express they will be set. Minimum fleet count at mainline will be in the 370 range I think so they have the ability to outsource an additional 50% of the airframes they want (not to mention all the 50 seaters they want). Mgmt continues to amaze me with their stupidity - why in the world would you want to dump the 170s and virtually guarantee the use of CRJ900s instead of the superior product of the 190?