E-190s at Airtran?

[Lear70]

Alaska F/O averages $10 an hour (25-30%) higher than our rates and caps out just shy of $100 an hour.

JBlu does the same thing on the Bus, their blended E190 F/O rates are a few bucks higher than ours, also, and they have a 2-3 year upgrade right now on the E190. Ours just went to 3 1/2 - 4 years.

Frontier? $7-10 higher each year than our rates, although with their pay freeze we'll catch up in 2 years, even without a new contract.

Midwest is slightly higher than our rates, even if only marginally.

Southwest? Not even gonna go there.

Those are our only competitors. Even the legacies are higher.

CA rates are still in the lower tier. Check out the DVD the union put out, it has a graph showing where our pilots currently fall compared to our competition.

The only thing that brings us up any is our B-fund matching, and you don't get than until year 2 and aren't fully vested until year 5. Not to mention that doesn't pay the mortgage or feed the kids.

Also don't forget our health insurance is twice as expensive or MORE than any of those airlines, either.

We HAVE to be cheaper than the others. We don't have as much to offer.

That's the kind of thinking that will start costing this company millions of dollars in training a year if they don't start fixing things.

You're exactly right, we don't have as much to offer... pilots that is. If our pay doesn't go up a large chunk, you can expect the attrition to increase.

Again, I don't want to burn the house down, but cost-neutral is a management fantasy that they're just going to have to face.

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

Alaska F/O averages $10 an hour (25-30%) higher than our rates and caps out just shy of $100 an hour.

JBlu does the same thing on the Bus, their blended E190 F/O rates are a few bucks higher than ours, also, and they have a 2-3 year upgrade right now on the E190. Ours just went to 3 1/2 - 4 years.

Frontier? $7-10 higher each year than our rates, although with their pay freeze we'll catch up in 2 years, even without a new contract.

Midwest is slightly higher than our rates, even if only marginally.

Southwest? Not even gonna go there.

Those are our only competitors. Even the legacies are higher.

CA rates are still in the lower tier. Check out the DVD the union put out, it has a graph showing where our pilots currently fall compared to our competition.

The only thing that brings us up any is our B-fund matching, and you don't get than until year 2 and aren't fully vested until year 5. Not to mention that doesn't pay the mortgage or feed the kids.

Also don't forget our health insurance is twice as expensive or MORE than any of those airlines, either.


That's the kind of thinking that will start costing this company millions of dollars in training a year if they don't start fixing things.

You're exactly right, we don't have as much to offer... pilots that is. If our pay doesn't go up a large chunk, you can expect the attrition to increase.

Again, I don't want to burn the house down, but cost-neutral is a management fantasy that they're just going to have to face.

I'll agree with some of your post. Although, if you look at the legacies, and thats what we really have to compete against, their CA rates are actually often lower that ours. And most of them do not credit as many pay hours as we do per month. You have to look at soft pay rules as well as actaul pay to get a fair comparison.

Flat E-190 rates at Blue are actually lower than our for FO's, and considerably lower for CA's.

SWA? Totally different company, and I don't think it will be too much longer until that party starts to end.

The DVD that never arrived? I don't trust those people as far as I can throw them. Numbers can be made to look like anything you want.

You must consider the B fund as part of compensation. It is an aditional 10.5% pay starting your second year. You don;t have to contribute any of your own money and you still get it. Most other companies that you mentioned above do not do that. Even SWA. And vested in 5 years? Not a bad deal considering you put NOTHING in there.

Can't speak with any certainty about health insurance at other airlines. I do know that compared to many other industries, we actually have a pretty good deal here.

When I said we don't have as much to offer, I was not refering to the pilots.
I was refering to AirTran, we don't have as much to offer to the flying public as say, United. Our only advantage is cheaper tickets.

 

[jonjuan]

That's the kind of thinking that will start costing this company millions of dollars in training a year if they don't start fixing things.

You're exactly right, we don't have as much to offer... pilots that is. If our pay doesn't go up a large chunk, you can expect the attrition to increase.

Yawn. They would love nothing better than to have the top of the seniority list leave. There will always be qualified pilots lining up to work at airtrain. The pay is better than any regional. Most regional pilots meet the mins to work there. Why should they pay more when the market doesn't dictate so?

 

[FLB717]

FlyFastLiveSlow, what have you done to support your Union and help your Company? I believe both can be accomplished with care.

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

FlyFastLiveSlow, what have you done to support your Union and help your Company? I believe both can be accomplished with care.

I agree. I'm sick of unrealistic crap that people say though. The "We deserve" mentality. I want a fair contract, I also want people to keep flying on us. That means cheap fares. I ALSO want a job 20 years from now. The average family of four in this country makes $65,000 per year. I'm not suggesting that we should not make more, just keep it in perspective.

And why should I respect our union leadership? AP, in his campaign letter said he reduced our union dues. As I recall, they were increased for a "war chest" right after his election, and have not come down since. Also, a probationary FO now has to pay after his third month. Even MORE $ for the NPA. In other words, that was a lie. Returning SAP II to fax and email?? Why? Because of a few whiners? Now there is NO accountabilty for SAP II. Support of the age 60 rule announced in a major newpaper? I wasn't polled, were you? Wasting money on a printed hotel guide and postage when one is available on-line? Why? Negotiating at HPN instead of MCO and ATL while you and I foot the hotel and dinner bills? For what? The list goes on. SH is on our NC, after the corruption during the last contract? Let's not forget the seeming inability to return any emails or phone calls regarding virtually anything. And don't tell me they are too busy. I tried repeatedly to volunteer my time, and no one even had the courtesy to call me back and say "no". Now, ask me again why I don't offer a lot of support. It's no wonder MGT behaves the way they do with our union people.

 

[FLB717]

YES dues as a base have been reduced, the "War Chest" is a standard increase in dues to pay for the costs of a NC and the things that support it above the normal exspenses of a union. New Hires asked for the right to vote because they represent a larger majority of our pilot group than your more established companies. You cant vote if you are not a full member. SAP II, I dont have enough time to talk about that. Age 60 yes a poll was done and was done again. Why do you negotiate in places other than MCO or ATL, because the Mediator picks places that the sides can not just get up and leave from, it helps to keep them at the table. If you dont like how things run you should run for office. Do some research and you may find answers for your concerns. Im sure you will not agree with me, and that is ok.

 

[Ty Webb]

Somebody's been listening to Noel's Trolls!

The average family of four in this country makes $65,000 per year. I'm not suggesting that we should not make more, just keep it in perspective.

Wow . . . . where to start? Someone stole your brain, and replaced it with low-grade dung. I'm guessing you're on the 717, you don't have a college degree, and you've been flying with a few of "Noel's Trolls".

The average family of four didn't invest $100K in learning how to operate a $35 million dollar piece of equipment. The "average family of four" wasn't gone from home for half the month, you stupid putz, and the "average family of four" doesn't stand to lose their income stream if they can't pass a first-class medical and PC every six months.

Do you realize that we are the lowest CASM pilots operating similar sized equipment, while your management is the highest paid?

Do you realize that pilots at Frontier, AWA, Jet Blue and even Spirit (A320) make more than you? Do you realize that you generally get what you can negotiate, and that wet-behind the ears-non-thinking-jerkoffs like yourself are a detriment to our pilot group?

Here's a suggestion- pull your head out of your nether parts, and take a good look around. Those guys who have been preaching the B.S. to you that you are regurgitating here are, for the most part, making $200K a year, with 18-19 day-off lines . . . . and are basically subsidized by YOU, working harder than they are for a quarter of the pay.

They tell you "not to rock the boat", that "the company can't afford to pay us more", and that "your union is all screwed up", and you fell for it, hook, line and sinker.

Did you ever stop to consider that our executives and officers are the highest-paid in the industry, while our pilots are among the lowest? Do you realize that the Company was crying poverty and asking for concessions, and turned around and gave themselves $8 million in bonuses? Do you realize that that same $8 million could have been a $5. per hour raise for every pilot on the property, yet they were asking us for concessions?

Have you offered to help out at NPA? That's what I thought. Have you made sure they have your email address and contact info, so you can participate? Have you read the Company's proposal? It's only been available on the NPA website for about a year and a half. You are paying extra because we are in negotiations, that is true, but your overall rate HAS been reduced. You are just too ignorant of NPA actions to know that.

You are, by all indications, a "Useful Idiot" for management. Do us all a favor and either grow up, or go away. You, and guys like you, are the biggest detriment to us getting a contract.

Over and Out.

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

Wow . . . . where to start? Someone stole your brain, and replaced it with low-grade dung. I'm guessing you're on the 717, you don't have a college degree, and you've been flying with a few of "Noel's Trolls".

The average family of four didn't invest $100K in learning how to operate a $35 million dollar piece of equipment. The "average family of four" wasn't gone from home for half the month, you stupid putz, and the "average family of four" doesn't stand to lose their income stream if they can't pass a first-class medical and PC every six months.

Do you realize that we are the lowest CASM pilots operating similar sized equipment, while your management is the highest paid?

Do you realize that pilots at Frontier, AWA, Jet Blue and even Spirit (A320) make more than you? Do you realize that you generally get what you can negotiate, and that wet-behind the ears-non-thinking-jerkoffs like yourself are a detriment to our pilot group?

Here's a suggestion- pull your head out of your nether parts, and take a good look around. Those guys who have been preaching the B.S. to you that you are regurgitating here are, for the most part, making $200K a year, with 18-19 day-off lines . . . . and are basically subsidized by YOU, working harder than they are for a quarter of the pay.

They tell you "not to rock the boat", that "the company can't afford to pay us more", and that "your union is all screwed up", and you fell for it, hook, line and sinker.

Did you ever stop to consider that our executives and officers are the highest-paid in the industry, while our pilots are among the lowest? Do you realize that the Company was crying poverty and asking for concessions, and turned around and gave themselves $8 million in bonuses? Do you realize that that same $8 million could have been a $5. per hour raise for every pilot on the property, yet they were asking us for concessions?

Have you offered to help out at NPA? That's what I thought. Have you made sure they have your email address and contact info, so you can participate? Have you read the Company's proposal? It's only been available on the NPA website for about a year and a half. You are paying extra because we are in negotiations, that is true, but your overall rate HAS been reduced. You are just too ignorant of NPA actions to know that.

You are, by all indications, a "Useful Idiot" for management. Do us all a favor and either grow up, or go away. You, and guys like you, are the biggest detriment to us getting a contract.

Over and Out.

Wow, where to start with you. I guess personal attacks would be a good place since that's where you started. It's the dumb, gun-toting, vote for republicans, knuckle dragging idiots like you that keep thumping their chests. Are you a furloughed legacy guy that has lost all concept of reality? Oh, and I have no love for Noel either, I just happen to think for myself.

Do you think the average family of four cares about any of the things you said? I know they are true. It's an investment, so is law school, or an engineering degree. So what? It's what you chose to do, and so did I. The average family of four only care about $89 tickets. Press releases, info picketing.....they think we are greedy babies.

I'm not gonna sit here and argue every point. I actually agree with a lot of what you say, but the early immature actions of the NPA did far more damage than anyone else could possibly do when it comes to getting a contract.

MY union IS screwed up....sorry to say it. They have proven it time and again. I think the other team has it's own set of problems. NPA could have taken a higher road and chose not to.

Contact info? Laughable. It took 7 emails and two calls for anyone to even pay attention to an address and phone number change. They have my info, I get the emails. And I was Wilson polled. And some time back, when this leadership was relatively new, I attemted several times to volunteer. No one EVER returned a call or an email. Why should I continue to chase them? They obviously have no use for help. I've read the proposals, both of them. I'm tired of the chest thumping...from both sides.

Grow up or go away? This is MY airline too. You must be a real joy to fly with.

Oh, and check those Spirit rates again. They don't have 320's. The 321 guys make marginally more....which would be equivalent to a 737-900, a 13% overide of what I make now, which would then mean that I make more than them. Oh yeah, we don't have those, do we??

 

[Lear70]

I'll agree with some of your post. Although, if you look at the legacies, and thats what we really have to compete against, their CA rates are actually often lower that ours.

That's fine with me. Compare our pay rates against what theirs WILL be here in about 3-5 years. Their SPC's are gearing up for a fight to the death when their next contracts come up for renewal. Management bit too deep and you can expect to see at least one or two of them on the brink of strike trying to take at least half of it back.

And most of them do not credit as many pay hours as we do per month. You have to look at soft pay rules as well as actaul pay to get a fair comparison.

Flat E-190 rates at Blue are actually lower than our for FO's, and considerably lower for CA's.

OK, it doesn't work both ways. JetBlue flat rates don't count. Period. You have to look at their blended rates. You want to talk about credit in your first paragraph above but then don't want to look at what JBlu pilots actually credit. I have 3 close friends over there that haven't credited less than 85 hours in 2 years, usually closer to 90. That means 15-20 hours of that is at a 50% override.

You have to use the blended rates for a fair comparison.

SWA? Totally different company, and I don't think it will be too much longer until that party starts to end.

I disagree, and I think a lot of people who think they're going to take pay cuts will be in for a shock.

Do I think they'll get huge increases like they have the last couple negotiating sessions? No, I believe it likely they'll simply get COLA and longevity increases, keeping them at the top of the food chain.

I believe that simply because SWA management understands how to treat their employee group. The book Nuts! said it best: "Treat your frontline employees well and they'll take care of your customer".

With that mentality, you think they'll come asking for pay cuts? Unlikely, they'll simply raise fares to keep their margins intact and, let's face it, SWA still drives fares on any routes they fly.

The DVD that never arrived? I don't trust those people as far as I can throw them. Numbers can be made to look like anything you want.

Straight pay? No, they can't. That's management B.S. right there.

Contractual pay rates for individual carriers are available to anyone who wants them. The only thing the NC did when they put out that DVD was fail to use the JBlue blended rates, every other rate was correct.

Yes, I checked.

You must consider the B fund as part of compensation. It is an aditional 10.5% pay starting your second year. You don;t have to contribute any of your own money and you still get it. Most other companies that you mentioned above do not do that. Even SWA. And vested in 5 years? Not a bad deal considering you put NOTHING in there.

No, at SWA you get a nice lump of stock options.

I don't consider the B Fund as part of my base compensation. I look at it as an addition, just like the work rules, and come up with a final number for compensation.

That number still falls under my minimum happy place.

Can't speak with any certainty about health insurance at other airlines. I do know that compared to many other industries, we actually have a pretty good deal here.

This is the worst insurance plan I have ever seen which, after working for 3 charter operators and 4 airlines, is saying a lot.

I thank God every day that my wife's Aetna plan (which is identical to ours) only costs her $80 per pay period for family coverage instead of the $198 per pay period here.

We're not the worst, but we're in the bottom 3. Yes, I've checked that, too.

When I said we don't have as much to offer, I was not refering to the pilots. I was refering to AirTran, we don't have as much to offer to the flying public as say, United. Our only advantage is cheaper tickets.

I know what you meant, I simply twisted it to make a point.

If we can't attract pilots, we'll be a continuous revolving door for people to come and get the 737 type and move on to SWA, FDX, or Legacies as they start hiring. It's already started.

Other airlines that have had that happen usually end up as neat poster art in airport restaurants and are seen nowhere else.

Dramatic? Yeah. True? A lot of the time, yeah.

We all have our goals for a contract. Mine are absolutely ZERO giveback in work rules and a 25% initial pay raise for F/O's with longevity and cola each year after that, and somewhere between 15-20% for CA's.

Remember, 10% of those rates is simply COLA that we haven't received for the last 3 years, so that works out to only a 15% raise in equivalent spending power for F/O's, 5-10% for CA's.

You consider that excessive?

 

[Ty Webb]

Thanks, Lear . . . . you summed it up nicely, and without calling anyone a putz . . . . bonus points!

Oh . . . . there won't be any extra pay, for your efforts, since we are broke and all, but on your 60th birthday, you will achieve total consciousness (and a big doobie).

.

.

 

[Lear70]

So... I got THAT going for me. Which is NICE!

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

That's fine with me. Compare our pay rates against what theirs WILL be here in about 3-5 years. Their SPC's are gearing up for a fight to the death when their next contracts come up for renewal. Management bit too deep and you can expect to see at least one or two of them on the brink of strike trying to take at least half of it back.


OK, it doesn't work both ways. JetBlue flat rates don't count. Period. You have to look at their blended rates. You want to talk about credit in your first paragraph above but then don't want to look at what JBlu pilots actually credit. I have 3 close friends over there that haven't credited less than 85 hours in 2 years, usually closer to 90. That means 15-20 hours of that is at a 50% override.

You have to use the blended rates for a fair comparison.


I disagree, and I think a lot of people who think they're going to take pay cuts will be in for a shock.

Do I think they'll get huge increases like they have the last couple negotiating sessions? No, I believe it likely they'll simply get COLA and longevity increases, keeping them at the top of the food chain.

I believe that simply because SWA management understands how to treat their employee group. The book Nuts! said it best: "Treat your frontline employees well and they'll take care of your customer".

With that mentality, you think they'll come asking for pay cuts? Unlikely, they'll simply raise fares to keep their margins intact and, let's face it, SWA still drives fares on any routes they fly.


Straight pay? No, they can't. That's management B.S. right there.

Contractual pay rates for individual carriers are available to anyone who wants them. The only thing the NC did when they put out that DVD was fail to use the JBlue blended rates, every other rate was correct.

Yes, I checked.


No, at SWA you get a nice lump of stock options.

I don't consider the B Fund as part of my base compensation. I look at it as an addition, just like the work rules, and come up with a final number for compensation.

That number still falls under my minimum happy place.


This is the worst insurance plan I have ever seen which, after working for 3 charter operators and 4 airlines, is saying a lot.

I thank God every day that my wife's Aetna plan (which is identical to ours) only costs her $80 per pay period for family coverage instead of the $198 per pay period here.

We're not the worst, but we're in the bottom 3. Yes, I've checked that, too.


I know what you meant, I simply twisted it to make a point.

If we can't attract pilots, we'll be a continuous revolving door for people to come and get the 737 type and move on to SWA, FDX, or Legacies as they start hiring. It's already started.

Other airlines that have had that happen usually end up as neat poster art in airport restaurants and are seen nowhere else.

Dramatic? Yeah. True? A lot of the time, yeah.

We all have our goals for a contract. Mine are absolutely ZERO giveback in work rules and a 25% initial pay raise for F/O's with longevity and cola each year after that, and somewhere between 15-20% for CA's.

Remember, 10% of those rates is simply COLA that we haven't received for the last 3 years, so that works out to only a 15% raise in equivalent spending power for F/O's, 5-10% for CA's.

You consider that excessive?

Points are taken. And let me clarify my position. I would LOVE to make much more, if negotiated in a reasonable (mature) and fair manner. Without going point to point, I agree with a raise, a reasonable raise that doesn't break the company.

The one thing I completely disagree with is that people will leave for FDX, CAL, SWA, UPS anyway. I don't think the only reason they leave is pay.

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

YES dues as a base have been reduced, the "War Chest" is a standard increase in dues to pay for the costs of a NC and the things that support it above the normal exspenses of a union. New Hires asked for the right to vote because they represent a larger majority of our pilot group than your more established companies. You cant vote if you are not a full member. SAP II, I dont have enough time to talk about that. Age 60 yes a poll was done and was done again. Why do you negotiate in places other than MCO or ATL, because the Mediator picks places that the sides can not just get up and leave from, it helps to keep them at the table. If you dont like how things run you should run for office. Do some research and you may find answers for your concerns. Im sure you will not agree with me, and that is ok.

I've said it before, and I will say it again. Wilson polling is not adequate for age 60 ruling. EVERY SINGLE PILOT needs to be included, not a "representative sample". The issue is too important. Same with SAP II.

 

[-9Capt]

People like you (LiveFast) make me embarrassed to wear my uniform. Your gripes with the union only show your ignorance. Why meet in HPN you ask? FYI, the mediator sets the locations. If you "don't trust these people as far as I can throw them" you obviously don't know them very well. I'm not going to waste my time responding point by point to all the inaccuracies you brought up, the company propaganda machine has already brainwashed you.

Lear, the last session was "highly disappointing" because of the companys compensation proposal. From what we were told, certain aspects of scheduling were TA'd based on assumptions regarding how compensation was to be handled (rigs, min day, etc). Alan said it was the most disappointing session this year.

It's time to turn up the heat out there on line. Fly Safe!!

 

[-9Capt]

I've said it before, and I will say it again. Wilson polling is not adequate for age 60 ruling. EVERY SINGLE PILOT needs to be included, not a "representative sample". The issue is too important. Same with SAP II.

Looks like someone failed statistics.

I was polled and I voted against it. Most pilots here disagree with me. I can accept that. The polling was done correctly and is a fair representation of the collective will of the pilot group.

Does CNN and USAToday poll every American when they report Bush's approval ratings?