Dumping UAL for SWA

[Aubie]

Good luck, brotha

Man, some of you guys are missing the point. More to life than seniority and cash.

Uaav8r - if you do decide to interview, good luck. I hope it works out for you. I just started here and absolutely love this place. Finest group of people you'll ever meet - all really happy to be here. It's amazing to me how well everyone gets along despite being from such a diverse background - from highly successful and very senior former military pilots to guys flying 19 years with another major to cool-ass Mesaba guys, you'd never guess everyone didn't have exactly the same story. Everyone's really down-to-earth and feaking happy to be here.

I feel lucky as crap to be here with such amazing people and am glad I took the advice from so many guys in the industry that there were more important things than just pay and seniority.

Good luck, amigo.

 

[Uaav8r]

Thanks to everyone (almost) for the encouraging words. As for my "dream" job. Thats BS. If you want it, its yours, remember, im leaving. Feel lucky, UAL now needs another pilot. As I mentioned before, ive had it. I now make 47% of what I made just three years ago. Add to that a major downgrade in equiptment, a loss of all our ESOP stock (some 300+k at the time)(oh they did let me sell it for 3400 bucks) and the loss of most if not all of our benefits including all of our "A" fund. My wife is newly pregnant and im on my "downgade" house after the last cut which I really dont want to sell. This industry used to be good. It now sucks. It still seems to be good at SWA so im going if they take me. (and ill keep my opinions to myself at the interview. Im blowing off steam here) I can do a lot of things for what Ual is paying me and be home every day. For those of you that want this job so bad you would do it for free.... Well you got your wish. Attitudes like that is what management sees and knows that they can fill my position with a 60k captain. Thats what we are going to see. 60k captain and 45k copilots. All the majors will keep racheting down the pay and bennies until someone draws the line. We are trying, but the bankruptcy judge has the final word. Im sick of worrying about my job evaporating any day now.

 

[waverunner]

Exactly what Aubie said. Uaav8r, we have a good gig going on over here. If ya want to enjoy going to work, have fun, and enjoy life while flying bunches of people all over this great country, come on over! We would love to have ya! Fracster - I used to think like you think. I'm here and I'm corporate. Get 737'd and LOR's asap. Hol' lotta' shakin' going on here in '05.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

Uaav8r, we have a good gig going on over here. If ya want to enjoy going to work, have fun, and enjoy life while flying bunches of people all over this great country, come on over! We would love to have ya!

What makes all you SWA guys think you are immune from the concessionary pressures befalling the rest of the passenger airline industry? Soon SWA will be the highest paid in the passenger industry and no doubt management will come calling pleading for givebacks to remain competitive? I have watched the quarterly/yearly earnings VERY closely for SWA for years ... the books appear to be vulnerable to any number of negative economic scenarios ... or does everyone believe because it HAS NOT HAPPENED, IT WILL NOT HAPPEN? Just curious where your confidence comes from?

I remember in the early to mid 90's everyone I spoke with was all excited about UAL because they were anticipating hiring very substantial numbers. When I reminded them of the economic necessity of the ESOP, they looked at me as if I were speaking blasphemy to question the almighty UAL machine. I get the same vibes today from SWA pilots. Hope I'm wrong.

 

[jhill]

<<<<<<

What makes all you SWA guys think you are immune from the concessionary pressures befalling the rest of the passenger airline industry? Soon SWA will be the highest paid in the passenger industry and no doubt management will come calling pleading for givebacks to remain competitive? I have watched the quarterly/yearly earnings VERY closely for SWA for years ... the books appear to be vulnerable to any number of negative economic scenarios ... or does everyone believe because it HAS NOT HAPPENED, IT WILL NOT HAPPEN? Just curious where your confidence comes from? >>>>>>>

No one is saying that won't happen here. We are saying this is a good place to work because we are all in it together and if we take cuts our leaders will take them as well. We trust each other and it works.

 

[flyinglow]

TexasSWA,

I wish this were true but I am realistic. Why would an airline like SWA take a corporate guy with 3000 or 4000 hours when they can get a another airline or military guy. I wish it werent the case but I am realistic. Heck, if I was in the hiring position I would probably do the same thing. Plus, from what I have seen the majority of corporate guys dont seem to make it to a place like SWA so getting a solid letter of rec from someone you have flown with is that more difficult. For me patience is a virtue but realism is a blessing. Sure would be nice to an SWA pilot though.....

Thanks for the thought

I don't get your point. First off alot of mil guys don't even have 3k-4k hours. should SWA hire them?

 

[SWA/FO]

Good Luck. They hired me...I'm a former corporate driver.

 

[waverunner]

Big Beer Belly - You're right! SWA is not immune to anything going on detrimental to this industry; however, this is a great place to be for now and hopefully in the future. Cheers!! to your Big Beer Belly

 

[AA717driver]

The "dream job" is up to the individual. I already had my dream job and it didn't last. Now, I have another really good job. I'm happy. That's what counts.

I hope Uaav is happy at SWA if he gets hired. He had a good gig at Ual but it's gone. The USAir guys had a good thing, too. If SWA follows Ual and Usair, oh well, they had a good run. I don't think that will happen but I also thought I had job security at AA...

Good luck Uaav.TC

 

[pilot141]

My following comment here is probably not going to be too popular but.......

It kills me that a guy from United who already got one dream job is going to get another when there are sooo many guys who have never had their shot and will have less of a chance now.

Like I said, not a popular opinion but dang that one reall hurts.

No hidden meanings in this statement, good luck at SWA.

The key point is...how much of a "dream job" was it if he's leaving?

It might have been the "dream job" at the time, just like getting on at Pan Am or Eastern was a "dream job". When the dream ends, should we hold it against the guy who saw his job dissolve around him?

I don't think so. Good luck, Uaav8r. Hopefully you won't steal a "dream job" from me!

 

[ThisistheDream]

The dream job at UAL in reality was a Nightmare!!! The dream job in reality is to be hired at SWA. SWA would be a great career move for anyone offered a job there except for a FEDEX or UPS guy and then still maybe. Good luck

 

[AlbieF15]

In my line of work, I've met quite a few former US Air and some United guys who were making the jump to other carriers.

Not a single one of them was saying "pi$$ on your, old airline..." but rather was quite torn for several reasons. First, there is a very real emotional attachment if not to your former airline to some of the co-workers you've struggled through the ups and downs with. Second, almost to a man (or woman) everyone wanted to try to be part of the solution...to "fix" and "turn around" whatever wasn't working. It was usually only after several attempts to make changes with management that was unresponsive before these folks decided "okay...I can't do it myself...so I better go and (feed my family) and/or (continue on in a profession I love)".

I've never had to leave a job, but when I faced having to choose between 2 carriers I thought it was a VERY tough decision. The decision these folks are making is in many ways much harder, giving up not only seniority but having to accept that their current way of life is likely over for good.

The silver lining is every single of one of them I've helped has been very upbeat and positive 6 months down the road. You know what you are giving up, but when you make the jump and find work "fun" again and have a bit of optimism in your new job, its amazing how much better everything in else life seems to become.

I wish all of you making these tough choices the best of luck...

 

[RVR300]

I don't think it's a 'grass is greener' situation at SW. We're certainly not immune from any of the woes that plague the other airlines. The difference is the general attitude of all the employee groups. The 'work together' ethic.

It we see someone that needs help, we help. Basically, we all try to do the right thing, treat people as you want to be treated, and keep in mind that the health of our company rests on the shoulders of every employee here.

It may sound like a giant koolaid fest, but going to work is more like going to go hang out with a bunch of friends for a few days. Sure we have the typical 1% but the other 99% more than makes up for it.

 

[chase]

Rvr300

You sum it up very nicely RVR...a man of few words on this forum (unlike me & others)....well done!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

What makes all you SWA guys think you are immune from the concessionary pressures befalling the rest of the passenger airline industry? Soon SWA will be the highest paid in the passenger industry and no doubt management will come calling pleading for givebacks to remain competitive? I have watched the quarterly/yearly earnings VERY closely for SWA for years ... the books appear to be vulnerable to any number of negative economic scenarios ... or does everyone believe because it HAS NOT HAPPENED, IT WILL NOT HAPPEN? Just curious where your confidence comes from?

From the outside looking in, SWA historical performance and profitability show that if any company can do it...SWA can. Sure they're vunerable, but I think that is a fear they bring to work. Whereas, the others, don't thave that fear, unfortunaltely, because they've overconfident instead.... it's a culture thing I guess....

If one reads Nuts and The SWA Way, it is quite incredible. SWA has tapped a resource...... productivity, that the other refuse or can't address. SWA does this through positive relationships. If two people interact on any level, it is a social experience. SWA has realized this and hired people that know this already and, if you like, exploited it, for the better.

To an outsider it may seem that working at SWA is a combination of the Care Bears, Teletubbies and Barney.... it is actually people just having a good time and getting the job done.... People want fair pay and perhaps more importantly, respect and dignity....this includes the work place....SWA provides both!

Ok..now the Kool Aid. Again as an outsider looking in, I understand the kool aid is there....but what is different at LUV is the Kool-Aid is backed up.. I have yet to hear any comments that Nuts is propaganda. (maybe extra sugar in the kool aid, but....) I believe where SWA is different is thier leadership also particpates in the kool aid. It makes the kool aid believable....

Lots of other companies love to sing the LUV song to thier employees! This is happening at my airline, where the kool aid they serve is for internal use only, amongsts the employees. Management has thier own kool aid... its called cash.

SWA has provided the blueprint for 30 years as to how to run the domestic airline industry. They are both revolutionary and evolutionary. The question is what happens if/when most domestics increase their productivty to SWA's level? What is the new competitve edge? Don't know, but SWA (or someone lese will be evolutionary/revolutionary). Also, I'd like to know what happens when SWA maximizes the US domestic market. Where is their growth? Larger/smaller airplanes? Canada? Mexico? LCC to Europe and Asia?

Can any SWA guys offer feedback and align my thoughts?

 

[JD2003]

Big Beer,

Just a thought, but SW has something like a 68% equity ownership in each of their airplanes right?...maybe somebody can help me with the numbers. Aren't they also heavily hedged in fuel.

I think SW will be around. When United was trying to finance expandocratic mergers/acquisitions and dumping cash into Avolar and any one of the CEO's that passed through UAL's revolving golden door, SW was putting their cash back into their aircraft, paying off debt, and buying fuel at historically low prices.

 

[MLBWINGBORN]

Guys..

Im starting my 4th year here and all i can say is that its VERY different here.
There is trust.
Fun.
Fellowship.
Friends.
And hard work.

If there is a problem..WE work it out.
If you have a problem..You will be supported and WE will work it out with you..

Its not some BS or Kool Aid.

Just the way it is.

 

[SWAdude]

I believe the concept that makes a difference at SWA is most people understand mutual respect. It took me a while to define the difference between my last airline, AA, and this airline.

When I did pilot interviews and some of the questions answered and conversations we would have seem to not to be very supportive of other people, I would ask the candidate to define mutual respect. The answer would either start about themselves or about other people. What I found was interesting. People that would understand what I had asked would start talking about respect for other people. People who did not understand tended to start talking about themselves. What I believe I learned through this experience was that in order to be able to truly respect oneself, one needs to be able to respect others.

When observing our entire process of interviewing people it is easy to see how and why we choose the people we do. We try to choose people that respect others first, then consider their own respect.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

What makes all you SWA guys think you are immune from the concessionary pressures befalling the rest of the passenger airline industry? Soon SWA will be the highest paid in the passenger industry and no doubt management will come calling pleading for givebacks to remain competitive? I have watched the quarterly/yearly earnings VERY closely for SWA for years ... the books appear to be vulnerable to any number of negative economic scenarios ... or does everyone believe because it HAS NOT HAPPENED, IT WILL NOT HAPPEN? Just curious where your confidence comes from?

I remember in the early to mid 90's everyone I spoke with was all excited about UAL because they were anticipating hiring very substantial numbers. When I reminded them of the economic necessity of the ESOP, they looked at me as if I were speaking blasphemy to question the almighty UAL machine. I get the same vibes today from SWA pilots. Hope I'm wrong.

You will never here me say, "IT CAN NEVER HAPPEN".

A couple of calculations from my puny brain:

--Pilot pay (not counting benefits) averages $140K * 7000 pilots= $1 Billion
--Debt service of UAL, AA, and DAL 2005 and beyond= $1 Billion a year

This tells me that some airlines can ask their pilots to work for NO PAYCHECK and still lose money this year. The problem is the cost of downsizing/reorganization, debt service and fuel.

One scenario:

In 2 years SWA's fuel hedges start to go away but AA, DAL, and UAL will have lost so much that they will be paying as much in extra principle and interest to make up for the lost SWA advantage of fuel hedging.

SWA will be the big dog in domestic air travel as AA, DAL, and UAL will be almost crippled with debt. How long will this last if SWA succumbs to the poor management that ALWAYS plagues super dominant carriers? I don't know, but let's look at history. I figure 5-10 years is possible.

But I feel SWA will continue to be managed well with good corporate responsibility. In that case this can continue for 20+ years. Good management can keep it up indefinitely with the financial and corporate culture SWA has.

The Good News for AA, DAL, CAL, NWA and maybe UAL:

They will be able to focus on their international routes after consolidation/reorganization of their domestic network. Pilot pay will be unnecessarily and unacceptably chopped during this "crisis". But that is somewhat of a red herring. The financially important part is good revenue from international flights will make up for high debt and probably pay it down to an acceptable level over time.

 

[Jim Smyth]

Since some of us have touched on how SWA Treats/Respects there employees I would like to add the human touch into the equation. We all receive Birthday and Anniversary cards each year from our company that I was told Herb pays for himself. I was also out with a medical issue in November of 02. I wasnt sure if I would ever be able to go back to flying at the time (Thank God I was able to). While I was out, Southwest sent me a nice SWA enbrodered blanket with a get well card. It was also followed up by a few phone calls expressing concern on how I was doing. I was also allowed to help fill in part time in the Chief Pilots office which helped so I wouldnt have to use as much of my sick bank time while I worked the problems out. I was off flying for 6 weeks and can tell you that the way I was treated gave me a whole new level of respect for my company. I always loved working for SWA before this but now I feel a true bond that will last a lifetime. This is just a small example of what people that work for SWA experiance.