Dumping UAL for SWA

[ThisistheDream]

The dream job at UAL in reality was a Nightmare!!! The dream job in reality is to be hired at SWA. SWA would be a great career move for anyone offered a job there except for a FEDEX or UPS guy and then still maybe. Good luck

 

[AlbieF15]

In my line of work, I've met quite a few former US Air and some United guys who were making the jump to other carriers.

Not a single one of them was saying "pi$$ on your, old airline..." but rather was quite torn for several reasons. First, there is a very real emotional attachment if not to your former airline to some of the co-workers you've struggled through the ups and downs with. Second, almost to a man (or woman) everyone wanted to try to be part of the solution...to "fix" and "turn around" whatever wasn't working. It was usually only after several attempts to make changes with management that was unresponsive before these folks decided "okay...I can't do it myself...so I better go and (feed my family) and/or (continue on in a profession I love)".

I've never had to leave a job, but when I faced having to choose between 2 carriers I thought it was a VERY tough decision. The decision these folks are making is in many ways much harder, giving up not only seniority but having to accept that their current way of life is likely over for good.

The silver lining is every single of one of them I've helped has been very upbeat and positive 6 months down the road. You know what you are giving up, but when you make the jump and find work "fun" again and have a bit of optimism in your new job, its amazing how much better everything in else life seems to become.

I wish all of you making these tough choices the best of luck...

 

[RVR300]

I don't think it's a 'grass is greener' situation at SW. We're certainly not immune from any of the woes that plague the other airlines. The difference is the general attitude of all the employee groups. The 'work together' ethic.

It we see someone that needs help, we help. Basically, we all try to do the right thing, treat people as you want to be treated, and keep in mind that the health of our company rests on the shoulders of every employee here.

It may sound like a giant koolaid fest, but going to work is more like going to go hang out with a bunch of friends for a few days. Sure we have the typical 1% but the other 99% more than makes up for it.

 

[chase]

Rvr300

You sum it up very nicely RVR...a man of few words on this forum (unlike me & others)....well done!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

What makes all you SWA guys think you are immune from the concessionary pressures befalling the rest of the passenger airline industry? Soon SWA will be the highest paid in the passenger industry and no doubt management will come calling pleading for givebacks to remain competitive? I have watched the quarterly/yearly earnings VERY closely for SWA for years ... the books appear to be vulnerable to any number of negative economic scenarios ... or does everyone believe because it HAS NOT HAPPENED, IT WILL NOT HAPPEN? Just curious where your confidence comes from?

From the outside looking in, SWA historical performance and profitability show that if any company can do it...SWA can. Sure they're vunerable, but I think that is a fear they bring to work. Whereas, the others, don't thave that fear, unfortunaltely, because they've overconfident instead.... it's a culture thing I guess....

If one reads Nuts and The SWA Way, it is quite incredible. SWA has tapped a resource...... productivity, that the other refuse or can't address. SWA does this through positive relationships. If two people interact on any level, it is a social experience. SWA has realized this and hired people that know this already and, if you like, exploited it, for the better.

To an outsider it may seem that working at SWA is a combination of the Care Bears, Teletubbies and Barney.... it is actually people just having a good time and getting the job done.... People want fair pay and perhaps more importantly, respect and dignity....this includes the work place....SWA provides both!

Ok..now the Kool Aid. Again as an outsider looking in, I understand the kool aid is there....but what is different at LUV is the Kool-Aid is backed up.. I have yet to hear any comments that Nuts is propaganda. (maybe extra sugar in the kool aid, but....) I believe where SWA is different is thier leadership also particpates in the kool aid. It makes the kool aid believable....

Lots of other companies love to sing the LUV song to thier employees! This is happening at my airline, where the kool aid they serve is for internal use only, amongsts the employees. Management has thier own kool aid... its called cash.

SWA has provided the blueprint for 30 years as to how to run the domestic airline industry. They are both revolutionary and evolutionary. The question is what happens if/when most domestics increase their productivty to SWA's level? What is the new competitve edge? Don't know, but SWA (or someone lese will be evolutionary/revolutionary). Also, I'd like to know what happens when SWA maximizes the US domestic market. Where is their growth? Larger/smaller airplanes? Canada? Mexico? LCC to Europe and Asia?

Can any SWA guys offer feedback and align my thoughts?

 

[JD2003]

Big Beer,

Just a thought, but SW has something like a 68% equity ownership in each of their airplanes right?...maybe somebody can help me with the numbers. Aren't they also heavily hedged in fuel.

I think SW will be around. When United was trying to finance expandocratic mergers/acquisitions and dumping cash into Avolar and any one of the CEO's that passed through UAL's revolving golden door, SW was putting their cash back into their aircraft, paying off debt, and buying fuel at historically low prices.

 

[MLBWINGBORN]

Guys..

Im starting my 4th year here and all i can say is that its VERY different here.
There is trust.
Fun.
Fellowship.
Friends.
And hard work.

If there is a problem..WE work it out.
If you have a problem..You will be supported and WE will work it out with you..

Its not some BS or Kool Aid.

Just the way it is.

 

[SWAdude]

I believe the concept that makes a difference at SWA is most people understand mutual respect. It took me a while to define the difference between my last airline, AA, and this airline.

When I did pilot interviews and some of the questions answered and conversations we would have seem to not to be very supportive of other people, I would ask the candidate to define mutual respect. The answer would either start about themselves or about other people. What I found was interesting. People that would understand what I had asked would start talking about respect for other people. People who did not understand tended to start talking about themselves. What I believe I learned through this experience was that in order to be able to truly respect oneself, one needs to be able to respect others.

When observing our entire process of interviewing people it is easy to see how and why we choose the people we do. We try to choose people that respect others first, then consider their own respect.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

What makes all you SWA guys think you are immune from the concessionary pressures befalling the rest of the passenger airline industry? Soon SWA will be the highest paid in the passenger industry and no doubt management will come calling pleading for givebacks to remain competitive? I have watched the quarterly/yearly earnings VERY closely for SWA for years ... the books appear to be vulnerable to any number of negative economic scenarios ... or does everyone believe because it HAS NOT HAPPENED, IT WILL NOT HAPPEN? Just curious where your confidence comes from?

I remember in the early to mid 90's everyone I spoke with was all excited about UAL because they were anticipating hiring very substantial numbers. When I reminded them of the economic necessity of the ESOP, they looked at me as if I were speaking blasphemy to question the almighty UAL machine. I get the same vibes today from SWA pilots. Hope I'm wrong.

You will never here me say, "IT CAN NEVER HAPPEN".

A couple of calculations from my puny brain:

--Pilot pay (not counting benefits) averages $140K * 7000 pilots= $1 Billion
--Debt service of UAL, AA, and DAL 2005 and beyond= $1 Billion a year

This tells me that some airlines can ask their pilots to work for NO PAYCHECK and still lose money this year. The problem is the cost of downsizing/reorganization, debt service and fuel.

One scenario:

In 2 years SWA's fuel hedges start to go away but AA, DAL, and UAL will have lost so much that they will be paying as much in extra principle and interest to make up for the lost SWA advantage of fuel hedging.

SWA will be the big dog in domestic air travel as AA, DAL, and UAL will be almost crippled with debt. How long will this last if SWA succumbs to the poor management that ALWAYS plagues super dominant carriers? I don't know, but let's look at history. I figure 5-10 years is possible.

But I feel SWA will continue to be managed well with good corporate responsibility. In that case this can continue for 20+ years. Good management can keep it up indefinitely with the financial and corporate culture SWA has.

The Good News for AA, DAL, CAL, NWA and maybe UAL:

They will be able to focus on their international routes after consolidation/reorganization of their domestic network. Pilot pay will be unnecessarily and unacceptably chopped during this "crisis". But that is somewhat of a red herring. The financially important part is good revenue from international flights will make up for high debt and probably pay it down to an acceptable level over time.

 

[Jim Smyth]

Since some of us have touched on how SWA Treats/Respects there employees I would like to add the human touch into the equation. We all receive Birthday and Anniversary cards each year from our company that I was told Herb pays for himself. I was also out with a medical issue in November of 02. I wasnt sure if I would ever be able to go back to flying at the time (Thank God I was able to). While I was out, Southwest sent me a nice SWA enbrodered blanket with a get well card. It was also followed up by a few phone calls expressing concern on how I was doing. I was also allowed to help fill in part time in the Chief Pilots office which helped so I wouldnt have to use as much of my sick bank time while I worked the problems out. I was off flying for 6 weeks and can tell you that the way I was treated gave me a whole new level of respect for my company. I always loved working for SWA before this but now I feel a true bond that will last a lifetime. This is just a small example of what people that work for SWA experiance.

 

[AMRCostUnit]

Uaav8tr, I too am comtemplating leaving AA for SWA after 12.5 years. Billions of debt to service, 8 years to Captain upgrade to make less than I did as a 777 FO. With all the furloughs I am getting more junior everyday day. Eagle is taking over more and more domestic. One year of hiring at SWA would put me at the same percent on their list that at I now am at AA. I would leave with B Fund plus 401k ($220k) to roll over into a self-directed IRA.

Most important, however, is the uncertainy. I don't want to spend the next 19 years always checking 6 and wondering what they are taking away next or when I am out the door. Better to start over at 41 than 51...

The question I ask the Captains I fly with is: "What could happen at AA that would make me sorry I left?" No good answer yet.

SWA represents stability. What they do works. I'm willing to put it all on the line because, watching AMR run the show, I feel it is worth the risk.

So Uaav8tr, follow your instincts. I concur with your reasoning and hope to follow your path. No call for a year now for me but I am light on PIC (1600hrs) since I have not flown Captain since my Air Force days.

Unit

P.S. Can some call and at least pretend they are from SWA?

 

[aridairbus]

My following comment here is probably not going to be too popular but.......

It kills me that a guy from United who already got one dream job is going to get another when there are sooo many guys who have never had their shot and will have less of a chance now.

Like I said, not a popular opinion but dang that one reall hurts.

No hidden meanings in this statement, good luck at SWA.

Who ever said you were entitled to anything when you got into this career?

 

[reepicheep]

The UAL guy is going through what myself and a lot of others here at usair are feeling. Except we're a lot worse off than United. Still, it's not easy to part company with an airline you gave 15-20 years of your life to.

My feeling on leaving, and his too maybe, is if things get so bad that your new place tanks or furloughs you, than certainly you were gone anyway if you would have stayed at your old, much weaker carrier. So I don't see it as much of a risk, more of an opportunity. I believe things happen for a reason, not always apparent at the time.

 

[Uaav8r]

Jim Smyth, that boggles my mind. I know of two buddies in the last 6 months. One did an abort on a 747-400 just below V1 for a blown engine, then did an evac uneventfully. The other guy lost an engine in a 767 over the pond and went into Gander safely. Neither of them EVER heard from ANYONE at the company. No "thanks" or "nice job". Nothing. No follow up of ANY kind. Thats the climate we work in, to be gone 300 hours a month, during all holidays, with maybe 10 days a month off for less than half of what we used to make not to mention no pension, etc. Its amazing how much guys want to have pride in their company. Noone here does anymore. Im glad all you guys at Southwest have kept it all in focus. Thats why I want to work there. And AMRcostunit. The beers are on me in Dallas. Youll get called.

 

[capt_zman]

After reading through most of this thread, I was starting to see the different angles and understand the plights of the UAL and USAir guys. That was before I read about the complaining about upgrading, not making enough money since you upgraded from 777 FO, took away my A fund, rolling over 220k of B funds, not getting coddled for doing your job, gone for 300 hours a month????, blah, blah, blah. You have it so tough.

I hate to be an a$$, but it wasn't too long ago you guys were sitting in your 777, ripping on everything about Southwest. Now since it's one of the only stable games in town, you want to jump ship and make all your problems go away. I always believed that Southwest hired people for being who they are and believing in the culture. Now it seems that if you have a 5000 hours of 737 time and a box of tissues, it's welcome aboard.

Anyone can be nice and "fit the mold" for a day or two and con interviewers into thinking they are the right fit, but when the $hit hits the fan and the company depends on their "wonderful people", they'll only hear how the company has screwed them.

 

[Jim Smyth]

capt_zman

It's easy to judge other Pilots at other Airlines for the actions they take in bad times as well as the good ones. Until your there and put in that position you won't know how it is. We are all unfortunately tied to the Airlines we get hired with. The longer you stay there the harder it is to leave for many reasons and it's very emotional to say the least. I feel for the UAL guys as well as the many others that are currently strugling for survival. I have been there and it sucks! You would think that "WE" as Pilots would take care of our own and look out for our own profession. You don't see other professions taking an experienced trade professional with many years of experience and when there company has trouble they are let go,downsized etc go back to starting wages with starting benefits. They are compensated for the knowledge in that trade. You would think we as a collective group would be able to do this together.

 

[reepicheep]

Capt zman,

You expressed one way of looking at it; the other is that the usair or UAL guy will be so happy to be freed from their rat-holes (well, at least the usair guy!) and onboard a company that values them that they'll work twice as hard to help make it all work.

At my new job with America West, I'll kiss the ground every day and just thank God that I got outta there with my sanity intact.

 

[RVR300]

The beers are on me in Dallas.

UA guy... new hires aren't allowed to buy beer at SW. It's tradition that their Captain takes care of them. In absence of his or her Captain, another Captain or FO on hand will usually take care of them.


The other guy that wrote something to the effect of 'when you were all hight and mighty in the 777...' Yeah. It's easy to rest on your laurels when things are going great, and probably everyone at every airline is guilty of that. The state of the industry right now should be a giant wake up call for all of us.

As for guys jumping ship after a long road at another airline.. That takes a lot of courage and guts to take that kind of plunge. In my early 20's making career moves seemed like an adventure. Now as I approach 40 career-changing events carry a lot more baggage.

 

[skirt]

In my line of work, I've met quite a few former US Air and some United guys who were making the jump to other carriers.

Not a single one of them was saying "pi$$ on your, old airline..." but rather was quite torn for several reasons. First, there is a very real emotional attachment if not to your former airline to some of the co-workers you've struggled through the ups and downs with. Second, almost to a man (or woman) everyone wanted to try to be part of the solution...to "fix" and "turn around" whatever wasn't working. It was usually only after several attempts to make changes with management that was unresponsive before these folks decided "okay...I can't do it myself...so I better go and (feed my family) and/or (continue on in a profession I love)".

I've never had to leave a job, but when I faced having to choose between 2 carriers I thought it was a VERY tough decision. The decision these folks are making is in many ways much harder, giving up not only seniority but having to accept that their current way of life is likely over for good.

The silver lining is every single of one of them I've helped has been very upbeat and positive 6 months down the road. You know what you are giving up, but when you make the jump and find work "fun" again and have a bit of optimism in your new job, its amazing how much better everything in else life seems to become.

I wish all of you making these tough choices the best of luck...

I'll vouch for all of what Albie just said, and more. 13 years at UAL traded for a career at JetBlue. My only regret is that I didn't do it sooner. I never expected UAL to be in the dire straights they are now, so I can see why one year later even more folks would be jumping ship. Best wishes to all who stay, as well as those who leave.

Skirt

 

[Dave Benjamin]

UA guy... new hires aren't allowed to buy beer at SW. It's tradition that their Captain takes care of them. In absence of his or her Captain, another Captain or FO on hand will usually take care of them.

It should also be noted that WN has the best deal of all negotiated into their hotel contracts - cheap beer and other refreshments. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think beer is a buck, wine 2 bucks, and well drinks for 3. The company appears to put a lot of effort into making sure crews are content with the layover hotels. Surveys of crewmembers are conducted and high ranking hotels get some sort of recognition. Since we all spend more time than we want in hotels that's a nice touch.

Anyone wishing to make a donation to my type rating fund drive just drop me a line.

 

[RVSM]

This thread really makes me appreciate where I am. I knew it was getting rough at the legacy carriers but I didn't realize how rough.

I second the previous statements about this being a great place to work. I really found out how great when my reserve unit deployed. Holidays and on my birthday I would recieve a care box from my coworkers and another box from the corporate office filled with stuff for me and my soldiers. I missed my ten year anniversary party because I was gone. They sent me a tape of the banquet and awards presentation which included a little movie that was shown at the party that showed the picture and name of every person in the company on military leave at the time.

So many little things were done that I can't even remember all of them except that I felt missed. You expect that from blood family but not from your work family. I am blessed to be here.

You will not regret the move. I leave the house every day thinking "cool, I get to go to work today."

CAS

 

[Skater]

I am a furloughed UAL guy (4 1/2 years with UAL), lucky enough to be hired at SWA. All I can say is do it. The work culture is so much better here. It only took a month of being on the line to see how the employee groups interacted at United and it was like having a bucket of cold water thrown on you. Like a previous post said, every company has their one percent, but the other 99% really want to do what is best for the company and the groups seem to all get along.


Second, I was so sick of hearing the United guys b!tch about SWA pay scales and how bad it was for the "industry". Their high and mighty attitude was hard to take to say the least. Seeing what they are now doing to the "industry" with that ridiculous payscale and shelling the A-plan.... When you base your whole existence on your hard core union attitude for so many years, and then when the shoe is on the other foot, sell out the whole industry, it makes me sick. My buddies and AA and DAL pretty much feel like their pay scales and pensions are really back in jeopardy.

I would say to you, good luck. I hope you get on and start enjoying your trips and life style again.

 

[bluefin]

congrats on the interview! I would like to fly for SWA, but four mouths to feed mortgage and one income, can't forsee a type soon, furloughed and then screwed by WIA, I guess all that work to follow a dream was wasted. Having a type by the company sure did help. Good Luck!!!

 

[mach78]

When SWA management heard about several Orlando based pilot's homes getting damged from the hurricanes this summer, SWA sent them gift certificates from Home Depot.

 

[mach78]

uaav8r,


>>>Therefore 3 weeks ago I put in an app at SWA and just got the call for an interview.<<<

3 weeks! How'd ya do it? Did you mean 3 months?

 

[Uaav8r]

Nope. 3 weeks. I read somewhere on here of a guy who got a call after 10 days!

 

[mach78]

Wow. Ok, and good luck to you.

 

[Pugh]

With Southwest you don't even have to work there for them to be nice to you, I get birthday cards every year for them and I'm just some dumb passenger.

 

[English]

With Southwest you don't even have to work there for them to be nice to you, I get birthday cards every year for them and I'm just some dumb passenger.

True.

I flew on SWA right after a very special occasion. I was nonrevving. I mentioned to the lead FA the occasion in passing, during idle chit chat, and she (I guess) mentioned it to the captain. Next thing I knew, they had a bottle of chilled champagne brought on board, had the entire aircraft (passnengers and crew) congratulate me and give me the bottle of champagne! And I didn't even work for them. That truly touched me, that I company I had no relationship would honor the day for me. It really hit home when I realized my own company would never do that for me. It truly humbled me to realize the niceness of the people that work at SWA.

I have other stories you wouldn't believe but I'm saving those...

 

[WhiteCloud]

This is a great thread. My view from the sidelines is that SWA offers decent pay and benefits and is a good company to work for. Even if UAL recovers (big "if" in my opinion) and you would have made more money by staying the big question is if the difference is worth the price. Personally, I think if you stay at UAL you'll be out on the street within two years looking for a job and competing with the other 10,000 highly qualified former UAL pilots.