Drift Down Routes

[Nevets]

Just curious.... What would you do if WX was covering the entire airway and ATC tried to vector you around it? Would you turn it down and fly through it because of driftdown? What if ATC had to send other A/C into your airspace because of WX and they needed to send you more than 5 miles off your route to clear them? Would you say no and send the other a/c into a thunderstorm?? Because ive seen tons of stuff like that happen out west. It sounds like your FOM is very vague and doesn't cover every situation, and thats not your fault. You don't know why ATC was trying to move you, but based off of how mad the controller got, I'm guessing there could have been something going on more important than your driftdown. But then again, maybe not. The controller could have just been a jerk.. My point is that we as pilots don't always know why ATC does the things they do. But I have several friends who are controllers and trust me, pilots may think they know everything, but we don't. Especially when it comes to ATC.. Who knows, maybe your company filed a route that conflicted with other traffic flow. Maybe ATC didn't catch it until you were already airborne..... Get it. Sometimes its better to just move.

Look, we can go through hypotheticals all day long. I've already said that I wouldn't not fly through any thunderstorm. My responsibility does not extend into other aircraft or whatever ATC feels is more important. The controller explained to me his situation and I explained to him mine. He was able to deal with it but not in the way he wanted.

I don't believe the FOM is vague at all. It does not provide guidance to use a different ISA or anti-ice off/on than what is on the release. I believe this will probably be amended but I don't really know. Also, the route is the same one we fly everyday. What changes is the weight, temperature and the use of anti ice. Most times its not an issue.

I have many friends that are center controllers. But they are all from the same facility. The same facility in question. Apperantly this specific facility has had only a couple of controllers deal with this kind of situation. I was just trying to find out if this is also true for other facilities.


It may be better for ATC to just move, but I will follow regulations and company policy as much as possible and not let ATC bully me into anything that I'm not comfortable with. If that means that I or the GV has to wait on the ground another five minutes, so be it. Get it?

 

[gt1900]

My responsibility does not extend into other aircraft or whatever ATC feels is more important

Dude... Not sure where you fly, but in the USA, yes it does. Unless you don't like your pilots license. If you interfere with ATC working an emergency A/C your going to have some serious explaining to do. Same thing for A/C deviating for WX that may enter your flight path. If ATC tells you to move, and you don't, your going to have a short airline career..

 

[Nevets]

My responsibility does not extend into other aircraft or whatever ATC feels is more important

Dude... Not sure where you fly, but in the USA, yes it does. Unless you don't like your pilots license. If you interfere with ATC working an emergency A/C your going to have some serious explaining to do. Same thing for A/C deviating for WX that may enter your flight path. If ATC tells you to move, and you don't, your going to have a short airline career..

Again, you are talking about hypotheticals. There was neither weather deviations or emergency aircraft. The controller stated he had to hold two aircraft on the ground because I was not able to accept the reroute.

Again, no controller can compel any pilot to accept a clearance which violates regulations or company policies. I did my explaining as professionally and concise I could on the frequency and then again on the ground when I called the facility. I further explained it through ASAP/ASRS and the CPO and Standards department. Both of which stand behind me. Anyways, leave the worrying about me career up to me, than you.

This was not the point of this thread. As I previously stated, I'm wondering if this is a situation that controllers at other facilities have had to deal with it and how so?

 

[ATCT]

The only times ive dealt with drift down routing was regarding a re-route for an aircraft flying IAH-SLC (E45X) and they couldnt accept the route I was trying to give. (They couldnt go their filed route due to center restrictions)...so long story short they waited on the ground for abour 2 hours and when center opened up their route, off the went. The pilot was nice enough to explain this to me (when I was working on Flight Data, aka the "other" clearance frequency) because none of us upstairs knew what that was. (nor anyone at ZHU...not much drift down routes in south eastern texas )

ATCT

 

[N1VIBS]

Yeah, that's what I said, among other things. I also suggested that I could climb or descend but the controller was having none of it. He even threatened me with a pilot deviation if I didn't accept his clearance! Another controller asked me if I was declaring an emergency and asked me to squawk 7700! Oh well, I guess I will have to try to educate them one at a time.

I respect the controllers, but never,never let a controller "fly" your aircraft for you!!!

 

[Hold West]

Again, no controller can compel any pilot to accept a clearance which violates regulations or company policies. I did my explaining as professionally and concise I could on the frequency and then again on the ground when I called the facility. I further explained it through ASAP/ASRS and the CPO and Standards department. Both of which stand behind me.

I've never had to deal with this situation, doesn't arise at Honolulu or when I worked in Minneapolis Center.

But I think you handled it exactly correctly, if that means anything. Flow control and aircraft on the ground don't even come close to overriding your responsibilities as PIC. Good job, I say.

 

[dispatchguy]

PICs have the FINAL word on accepting, or refusing any ATC clearance, per 91.3

Sounds like u did everything correctly. If an ATCer offers a clearance that, for whatever reason you cant accept, then you have to tell them that you cant do it.

I remember once jumpseating in DEN Center, and this DEN controller was offering a reroute to an NWA crew that they couldnt accept due to mountain wave activity; well offering is the wrong word, it was more like shove it down their throat. From what I was making out, the NWA crew was trying to explain, very respectfully, that their company restrictions prevented them doing what the controller wanted (fly through a red mountain wave with known severe turb); unfortunately we had to change freq before I heard the resolution. The DEN controller was threatening all sorts of stuff, when the captain got on the radio asking if what the controller'll do if they get hit with some severe turbulence.

 

[Nevets]

Just thought I would update everyone, if you even care. I talked to the ERC. They said I did everything right. There was no pilot deviation. The facility will issue a letter of correction to all their controllers telling them about terrain clearance/drift down regulations and that certain airlines may not be able to accept reroutes due to aircraft limitations. And the specific controller was in "hot water" for being "belligerent" on the frequency.