Down in Flames

[Big Duke Six]

YOU are looking at this objectively? Are you freaking kidding me?

QUOTE:
"Your're right, he could have given everybody a raise and still be sucsessful with exit financing."

He robbed your company! I guess if you are a blind UAL employee, you'd think he was doing a good job. If you're the rest of us, you'd see the COMPLETE lack of integrity, ethics, character and leadership this man has shown. You'd see the damage he has done to not only the rest of the industry but to the rest of the country as well as a result of these shortcomings.

You apparently do not know what "lack of integrity" means, judging from your responses to the posts above. Understand that his degree of sharing in the suffering that resulted from his decisions is exactly ZERO. He robbed everyone else, all of you, and laughs quietly all the way to the bank. This behavior does not show integrity.

QUOTE:
"The potential providers of that exit financing have made it clear that U, United, and the other legacy carriers headed for bankruptcy aren't coming out with defined benefit retirement plans."

And to top it off, you blame the "providers" of the potential exit financing for eliminating the pensions? You mean they have all come together and collectively decided that NO LEGACY CARRIER IN THE US WILL EMERGE FROM BANKRUPTCY WITH A DEFINED BENEFIT PLAN? That's rich, and delusional. I don't doubt it is the future of our industry, but don't try to tell me it was a banker who decided it for United AND will now impose it on ALL other companies trying to reorganize.

QUOTE:
"I would hope in a similar situation I would negotiate the best possible deal for myself as well."

To the expense of everyone else, you'd demand a fortune to ensure your own financial well-being, then ruin hundreds of thousands of jobs (industry-wide) to "save" 90,000? That tells us everything we need to know about your character.

Any unethical hack could have come in and done what he did. It does NOT take a special person to first completely insulate himself from the ramifications of his actions then wage a war on labor that will reverberate for decades and affect hundreds of thousands of people before the dust settles. Tilton has changed business ethics forever, and I don't think that is anything to be proud of.

 

[capt. megadeth]

I bet you're wrong. United spent a lot of money to get Tilton away from ChevronTexaco, and we could argue all day it was worth it or not. I am convinced there are very few who could have gotten the company in the position they are at today. The board went after Tilton specifically for his past experience in successful dealings with unionized labor, and whether you like it or not he did what no one thought was possible in respect to the many unions at United. I wish Tilton would work for free, that is not the reality of the situation.

OMG, I wish we were in the same room right now.

 

[skykid]

He robbed your company! I guess if you are a blind UAL employee, you'd think he was doing a good job. If you're the rest of us, you'd see the COMPLETE lack of integrity, ethics, character and leadership this man has shown. You'd see the damage he has done to not only the rest of the industry but to the rest of the country as well as a result of these shortcomings.

Duke, I'm guessing you are a Frontier pilot. Good for you if you are. It is a little tiresome for LCC pilots to get upset when the legacy carriers are forced to slim down to compete. I believe I have the big picture on what is happening in this industry and don't blame anyone. For you to point at United for damaging the industry, coming from my perspective, is a joke. However I'm able to step back and see the inevitable changes in the industry. All you see is what is good for you. As far as robbing the company, that is not the case. The guy was making a mint in another job, he negotiated his compensation in advance, and the United board thought it was worth it to bring him on. We'll see. Maybe you could give some specifics on the lack of integrity, ethics, character and leadership and I could respond in kind. I suppose you are talking about "robbing" the pensions. I don't think you have to be super sharp to see United can't compete with Frontier, Southwest, Jetblue, and Airtran and keep pensions. It would have worked, briefly in my opinion, with a loan guarantee, but not at all possible with conventional exit financing.

And to top it off, you blame the "providers" of the potential exit financing for eliminating the pensions?

No I don't blame bankers for eliminating pensions. If you were considering financing any legacy carrier out of Ch11, you would be a fool to provide the money for them to cover their pension shorfalls. Before that, you'd get fired. Here's the extra cash to cover your pensions, our study shows Frontier, Southwest, Jetblue, and Airtran will soon have defined benefit plans too so you will be able to compete. I don't blame the "providers" or anybody, but I can see the reality of the situation.

To the expense of everyone else, you'd demand a fortune to ensure your own financial well-being, then ruin hundreds of thousands of jobs (industry-wide) to "save" 90,000? That tells us everything we need to know about your character.

You obviously don't know anything about my character. No I would not leave my present job (I'm not talking about United, I've got a few jobs) without having a better deal, with the exception of going back on active duty full time if needed. You wouldn't either. Its business! You think Tilton should have said "Yes, I'll save United and do it for free." No, he negotiated a package good enough to make him leave. You and a few others are hung up on the "evil mgt" bit. Ruining thousands of jobs industry wide!?! Please, drop the blame game, because if you were capable of looking at the big picture, you might change your mind.

 

[skykid]

OMG, I wish we were in the same room right now.

I doubt it.

 

[blzr]

Thanks for jumping in Duke. Couldn't have said it better myself. Skykiddo is drinking some serious lav juice.

Oh, here's an idea. If we want to save our company, lets get rid of all our pention obligations. That's just criminal. How about go back to every bean counter and CEO that United has had in the past 8 years and take back 50% of all their earnings. That would be better than taking the hard earned retirement money oout of the hands of those that EARNED it. Those people that make the decisions at the top should have seen this thing coming, in the same way you see a TS on the radar and take action before you are actually in the darn thing. The fact that they didn't is one of two things, ignorance or apathy. Which is it?

 

[pilotyip]

skykid, stop dealing in reality this is a pilot board.

 

[capt. megadeth]

Thanks for jumping in Duke. Couldn't have said it better myself. Skykiddo is drinking some serious lav juice.

Those people that make the decisions at the top should have seen this thing coming, in the same way you see a TS on the radar and take action before you are actually in the darn thing. The fact that they didn't is one of two things, ignorance or apathy. Which is it?

Yeah, I thought if companies need to pay these ridiculous amounts of money to executives to (my favorite phrase by the way) "retain talent" then shouldn't these yahoos have the "talent" to see this coming? I mean, they are supposedly highly educated people that are good enough at these jobs to demand and deserve the high salaries and bonuses.

By the way, it's not a "blame game" it's a FACT game. In addition, maybe some of this was inevitable and unforeseen but the fact of the matter is this: Even if there was no way to save the pensions, prevent paycuts, etc. etc. the bottom line is that IT DOES NOT LOOK GOOD TO DO ALL THAT WHILE COLLECTING A $1 million paycheck plus bonuses and severance. So, no I do not expect Tilwhatever to do it for free but the fact is it does not look good to have your own pension protected while raping everyone else's.

 

[Big Duke Six]

QUOTE:
By the way, it's not a "blame game" it's a FACT game. In addition, maybe some of this was inevitable and unforeseen but the fact of the matter is this: Even if there was no way to save the pensions, prevent paycuts, etc. etc. the bottom line is that IT DOES NOT LOOK GOOD TO DO ALL THAT WHILE COLLECTING A $1 million paycheck plus bonuses and severance. So, no I do not expect Tilwhatever to do it for free but the fact is it does not look good to have your own pension protected while raping everyone else's.

Skykid, you missed my whole point. Capt M caught it though. I've said before that I'm sympathetic to the employees at UAL. I genuinely feel bad for you guys. The world is changing, and it hurts. I resent what he's done and I'm not even there. But, I'm not upset because UAL is trimming down to compete, I'm upset at your CEO for the tactics he's using. It is a moot point for you at this point, but it should upset you too. Do you get it yet? Let me ask you: Has he earned your respect? A person who walks in, wraps himself in Nomex, then sets the world on fire does not earn my respect. I'm a team-player kind of guy. I believe in lead by example. He has done none of this. That's my basis for saying he totally lacks character, ethics, integrity and leadership. What other conclusion is there when looking at a person who operates this way? He KNEW he'd have to inflict pain on thousands of people before it was all said and done. Fine, we all knew it. But to soak the company in advance? You may call him smart, I'd call him an a$$. He is completely self-serving.

As far as the employees go, I understand you need to save your jobs. What I dislike is that you have now officially sanctioned Tilton's methods as being effective. The impact goes way beyond the airline industry.

I can't think of another company who has damaged business ethics more than UAL. It may be legal, but it's sick and wrong. Does ANYONE like coming to work there? My two friends don't. The company needs to go away.

BTW, I do see the big picture. Its called "Principle". Look into it.

 

[FlyinScotsman]

BigDuke
I can't think of another company who has damaged business ethics more than UAL. It may be legal, but it's sick and wrong. Does ANYONE like coming to work there? My two friends don't. The company needs to go away.

I guess we are talking about just airlines.....Enron and WorldCom don't count?

 

[Big Duke Six]

Those were FRAUD cases. United has pushed to new depths of what are "legal" and "accepted" business practices. They are accepted now because the employees there let them get away with it. Yes, it inevitably had to happen, but I would have demanded mgmt share in the pain. I'm not convinced they did.

 

[koko nw]

Those were FRAUD cases. United has pushed to new depths of what are "legal" and "accepted" business practices. They are accepted now because the employees there let them get away with it. Yes, it inevitably had to happen, but I would have demanded mgmt share in the pain. I'm not convinced they did.

Point taken...We did and we lost. Being in BK takes alot of wind out of your sails.

The man in the black dress has tremondous power in BK.
Cheers

 

[skykid]

BTW, I do see the big picture. Its called "Principle". Look into it.

Friend, when you say stuff like this, and in one of the previous posts where you question my integrity, you go beyond the scope of what this forum is for. Its just not worth having a discussion on that level.

 

[crashpad]

"Yes, I'll save United and do it for free." ... You and a few others are hung up on the "evil mgt" bit. Ruining thousands of jobs industry wide!?!

Thanks for entertaining us over the past 3 years. This reminds my of the Buster Douglas-Mike Tyson fight. UAL makes coming to work fun!

 

[koko nw]

YOU are looking at this objectively? Are you freaking kidding me?

QUOTE:
"Your're right, he could have given everybody a raise and still be sucsessful with exit financing."

He robbed your company! I guess if you are a blind UAL employee, you'd think he was doing a good job. If you're the rest of us, you'd see the COMPLETE lack of integrity, ethics, character and leadership this man has shown. You'd see the damage he has done to not only the rest of the industry but to the rest of the country as well as a result of these shortcomings.

You apparently do not know what "lack of integrity" means, judging from your responses to the posts above. Understand that his degree of sharing in the suffering that resulted from his decisions is exactly ZERO. He robbed everyone else, all of you, and laughs quietly all the way to the bank. This behavior does not show integrity.

QUOTE:
"The potential providers of that exit financing have made it clear that U, United, and the other legacy carriers headed for bankruptcy aren't coming out with defined benefit retirement plans."

And to top it off, you blame the "providers" of the potential exit financing for eliminating the pensions? You mean they have all come together and collectively decided that NO LEGACY CARRIER IN THE US WILL EMERGE FROM BANKRUPTCY WITH A DEFINED BENEFIT PLAN? That's rich, and delusional. I don't doubt it is the future of our industry, but don't try to tell me it was a banker who decided it for United AND will now impose it on ALL other companies trying to reorganize.

QUOTE:
"I would hope in a similar situation I would negotiate the best possible deal for myself as well."

To the expense of everyone else, you'd demand a fortune to ensure your own financial well-being, then ruin hundreds of thousands of jobs (industry-wide) to "save" 90,000? That tells us everything we need to know about your character.

Any unethical hack could have come in and done what he did. It does NOT take a special person to first completely insulate himself from the ramifications of his actions then wage a war on labor that will reverberate for decades and affect hundreds of thousands of people before the dust settles. Tilton has changed business ethics forever, and I don't think that is anything to be proud of.

Do you work for UAL? Privey to inside info? Goto UAL LEC meetings?....Then how in the world do you know so much about what the creditors/banks demands were for exit financing?

YOU DON'T.....A guy on a jumpseat doesn't count.

Do you know how many of our management team are left from pre-Tilton? I'll give you a hint....less then 25%

UAL was a MESS...We needed a guy to come in and clean house and finally leverage our assets effectively in order to bash the living hell out of you guy's. Your opinion of his worth or effectiveness are moot, employees of UAL and our creditors will be the judge of that.

Oh by the way, spare me your I feel sorry for the employees BUT....ethics lecture. It's both smug and contrite..

You have a nice day.