DOT seeks age 60 opinion, young guys speak up

[FoxHunter]

not part of the "Pro-65 crowd", but ATC guys start collecting their government pension/health care the day they retire. Not so much for airline pilots.

Something's gotta give... increase it to 65 or lower the social security age to 60 for airline pilots.

That was tried back in the 60s when the Dems were in control of the White House and Congress, before the future of Social Security was an issue. ALPA used all it's influence to make it happen then. It will never happen!!!

 

[FoxHunter]

In Egland pilots can now go to age 62, if they move over to the right seat at 60. Why would ICAO reccommend that there shouldn't be 2 over age 60 pilots in the same cockpit at the same time? Are they worried about something?

Bye Bye-General Lee

General, I believe you are talking about the United Kingdom, or the UK, also known as Great Britain. That country is made up of England, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland. Ina any case the age in the UK is the JAA age of 65 for Captains.

ICAO has adopted the JAA requirement because it is far more conservative than necessary which helped convince some States to agree to the change. France, Pakistan, Columbia, and the USA were the only States not convinced.:erm:

 

[Freight Dog]

It's all discrimination, whether you want to admit it or not. YOU DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO TELL SOMEONE WHAT THEY CAN OR CANNOT DO BASED ON THEIR AGE.

You bet I can. When it's a safety-related decision, age plays a huge factor in it. Take a look at senior drivers.

People like you are the reason why OBAP and WIA exists and why there is now an association for airline pilots being forced to retire at an age that has no basis other than "that's how it's always been". That's exactly what was said with women and other ethnic group pilots.

Apples and oranges. But if you really wanna go down that road, notice that there is no such thing as United White College Fund or White Pilots Organization. Why is it that Mo from South Central can get access to United Negro College Fund and my kids can't? Is that not discrimination too? This argument really doesn't hold.

If it's a safety-sensitive career, let people get IN when their skills and health allow it and only make them LEAVE when their skills and health NO LONGER allow it.

Actually, it takes more to fly one of those fancy bizjets in and out of ASE, TEB, etc than it does to fly a 757 in and out of ATL or ORD.

When's the last time you dropped a Lear or G-4 across Red Table or did the VOR-A circle-to-land at TEB? MUCH more challenging then our high-density yet very controlled Part 121 air system.

I agree to an extent. I'll agree with you that not all people age the same, and you have to draw a standard. How is this new proposed rule not discriminatory either? It still doesn't meet your objective of letting people leave, it merely states that you can truck it in the airlines for 5 more years as long as there's someone there with you under 60. If that's not discriminatory, I don't know what is.

As for the private jets, I've done the job, and I've flown in and out ASE, TEX, SUN and all those fun mountain airports. Here's the primary difference between the two jobs:

As an airplane owner, I can hire you to fly me. It is my own prerogative if I want to hire a 65 year old. Private transportation. Airlines are public transportation, and as such, subject to different rules. I don't want my kids flown by people over 60, especially if there's no reason to.

But, by your argument, you would take a guy out of his 20+ year patterned environment when YOU say his skill set is degraded and put him in an even MORE challenging environment that he hasn't seen for a couple decades, if ever.

I'm sure your Gulfstream passengers would LOVE the fact that their body count doesn't factor into your expert risk assessment.

Are you saying that the old guy in the patterned environment can't handle change? Oh my... how come? Too much new information to learn? Are you alluding to the fact that if an emergency hits, the old guy will get a heart attack because he's flown 20+ years accident-free? Come on man, I like your other arguments on regionals board, but this one is a little weak.

Like I said, as for Gulfstream passengers, they are the ones hiring the old crew. If it's a charter company, and the people in the back get scared, one call, and the old crew is out... It's a risk that the Gulfstream owners or pax take BECAUSE THEY CHOOSE TO. Airline passengers don't have that choice. We all have to rely on the old guy to ground himself and retire if he doesn't feel like he can hack it anymore. Will he? I doubt it. Not the ones I've run into. They still claim they're able for that widebody left seat, but are unable to copy down a clearance and have to have it read to them 3-4 times before they finally get it.

 

[Lear70]

You bet I can. When it's a safety-related decision, age plays a huge factor in it. Take a look at senior drivers.

Ummm... I'm sorry. Are you an M.D. with a Ph.D. in age behavioral sciences? Are you on the FAA payroll to determine the risk factors behind an age 65 increase? No?

Then, no, you can't. Period. Get it through your skull, it's NOT your call to make. NO INDIVIDUAL PERSON has the right to limit anyone else based on their own OPINION. That's why we have a legal system in place that, thank God, prevents people from indiscriminately setting up their own laws.

Apples and oranges.

I disagree.

But if you really wanna go down that road, notice that there is no such thing as United White College Fund or White Pilots Organization. Why is it that Mo from South Central can get access to United Negro College Fund and my kids can't? Is that not discrimination too? This argument really doesn't hold.

The argument ABSOLUTELY holds.

And you're absolutely right, the examples above are reverse discrimination and I've been preaching against EXATLY those types of discrimination for a long time. I'm all for the abolition of the EEOC; its time has come and gone.

Level the playing field, let everyone obtain and keep their job based on merit. Period. Age, gender, race, religious belief, ANY discrimination on ANY of these basis is intolerable.

I agree to an extent. I'll agree with you that not all people age the same, and you have to draw a standard.

Agreed. Its called a medical exam and testing standards. If they can't pass the standard, they can't continue to fly. Safety problem solved.

How is this new proposed rule not discriminatory either? It still doesn't meet your objective of letting people leave, it merely states that you can truck it in the airlines for 5 more years as long as there's someone there with you under 60. If that's not discriminatory, I don't know what is.

I agree it's not a perfect solution, but it's better than the system currently in place.

One thing at a time...

As for the private jets, I've done the job, and I've flown in and out ASE, TEX, SUN and all those fun mountain airports. Here's the primary difference between the two jobs:

As an airplane owner, I can hire you to fly me. It is my own prerogative if I want to hire a 65 year old. Private transportation. Airlines are public transportation, and as such, subject to different rules. I don't want my kids flown by people over 60, especially if there's no reason to.

Non-sequitur, sir. Your logic is faulty.

Your previous post SPECIFICALLY said that the airline guys "could go fly a private jet", yet NOW you're saying that the private jets can exclude the guys flying over 60 as well.

By YOUR logic, you just locked them out of the VERY FLYING that your last post sought for them.

Pick one.

Are you saying that the old guy in the patterned environment can't handle change? Oh my... how come? Too much new information to learn? Are you alluding to the fact that if an emergency hits, the old guy will get a heart attack because he's flown 20+ years accident-free? Come on man, I like your other arguments on regionals board, but this one is a little weak.

No, I'm not saying that at all. I never spoke those words.

What I DID say was that you question the safety of a pilot at a 121 airline but not flying a corporate jet in MORE CHALLENGING ENVIRONMENTS?

With your experience you can't possibly tell me that shooting a Cat IIIc autoland in a 767 in 0/0 weather is harder than trying to hand-fly an old 20- series Lear with a POS autopilot into a 4000 foot strip with a 25 kt. crosswind? Yet THIS is where you submit the guys that, by YOUR argument, have degraded skills should go?

YOU are the one suggesting their skills are degraded, not me. I'm simply asking you WHY you would send a pilot who, in YOUR opinion, has degraded skills, into a MORE CHALLENGING environment?

Like I said, as for Gulfstream passengers, they are the ones hiring the old crew. If it's a charter company, and the people in the back get scared, one call, and the old crew is out... It's a risk that the Gulfstream owners or pax take BECAUSE THEY CHOOSE TO. Airline passengers don't have that choice. We all have to rely on the old guy to ground himself and retire if he doesn't feel like he can hack it anymore. Will he? I doubt it. Not the ones I've run into. They still claim they're able for that widebody left seat, but are unable to copy down a clearance and have to have it read to them 3-4 times before they finally get it.

I've never seen a guy have to copy a clearance 3-4 times, even one I flew with last month who was 1 week from age 60 mandatory retirement. He was a VERY capable aviator, sharp as a tack, and it reminded me how much BULLSH*T it was he was being forced out.

I'm certain there are a few guys out there flying at 55 or even younger that shouldn't be there either, but the checks and balances lies with the medical examinations and Proficiency Checks and Line Checks. THAT is what we SHOULD be relying on, not necessarily someone's self-certification of their own physical condition, and certainly not an arbitrary number that has no basis in fact or research, but simply "it's done OK so far"...

 

[michael707767]

I've never seen a guy have to copy a clearance 3-4 times, even one I flew with last month who was 1 week from age 60 mandatory retirement. He was a VERY capable aviator, sharp as a tack, and it reminded me how much BULLSH*T it was he was being forced out..

I have flown with a 59 year old who was sharp as a tack too. I have flown with several 59 year olds I had to baby sit through a four day trip. Sorry, but we do slow down mentally and physically as we age. Is 60 the right time to force them out. maybe not. But to raise it up to 65 with one swoop is not smart. A compromise would be to raise it to 61, then wait a couple of years and see how it works, then 62 and repeat. Step it up and see what happens.

 

[Klako]

Klako's concerned because he turns 60 sometime in December. With the glacial speed at which things are moving, his goose is cooked. I'd say that the reality of the situation has finally started to sink in. He's not going to be able to hold on to his precious left seat at Horizon.
The only hope of this passing in this session of Congress is through an omnibus appropriations bill being passed with the text of S 65 remaining intact. It's a very slim shot at best. And quite frankly, an omnibus appropriations bill wouldn't be passed until late Dec, if at all. After which, the FAA has 30 days to enact the change ... and you can anticipate the FAA stating that they'll need more than 30 days to enact it. Undaunted Flyer turns 60 at the end of January, so he's on pins and needles.
It'll be interesting to see whether or not these two remain activists AFTER they turn age 60.

I would be willing to bet you Andy, that I will remain in my left seat by this time next year.

Andy is the biggest hypocrite of them all. One can glean from reading all of Andy’s posts that he really would favor a change to the age 60 rule, only at a later time when he himself is approaching age 60 and not sooner.

Andy has declined recall only because he has a cushy military job that will tide him over with a nice income until he decides when it is most advantageous for him to be recalled. Andy earns field grade military pay while posting anti age 60 rule change comments on every site he can find. He plans that the age 60 rule will continue to work in his favor by ensuring his movement up the seniority list. Then, just before he sees age 60, he will join APAAD and be an activist for the age 60 rule to be extended to 65, just in time for him.

 

[Cyclone]

Lear 70

You made a comment about how we should screen. OK...in theory that would be nice if the PC and physical worked but the fact is they don't.

The PC is a poor replication for what happens on the line. If we made the PC an age aware "looking for decline" mental acute screen the unions would be in uproar. It sounds good but in practice the PC doesn't create the fatigue, long hours, or surprises that we see on the line. The small mistakes that end up being big mistakes are more profound on the last leg of a long day on a three or four day trip after a short overnight. It's insidious, but it's real.

The physical? Don't make me laugh. Outside of the EKG there isn't much of a threat here either. Again, it doesn't screen for the guy who is declining because of age.

The reality is we all want to think we are the young hard-diXX we once were but we aren't. It doesn't happen overnight so it's not easy to notice. We are all declining at a pace that is different than the guy (or gal) sitting next to you but we are all getting older not younger. Age can be a good thing because it brings wisdom and experience. Carried to an extreme it's bad. You need the physical tools to do the job. Age 60 is the way we try to do that and it's been working fine. It's not perfect but I really truly believe that Age 65 is worse because it is less cautious. I don't want to see us err to the side of greed and regret the change because innocent people die.

Please write to the DOT/FAA

 

[B6Driver]

It's going to 65, get use to it.

 

[Cyclone]

B6 Boy

maybe it is, maybe it isn't going to change. i'm not so sure about it as you are but that's because i don't pretend to know everything. if it does change it doesn't make it right; and it's not too late to so write!

Call or write your lawmakers:

http://www.senate.gov
http://www.house.gov

 

[zonker]

It's going to 65, get use to it.

Brilliant!