do you wear a parachute?

[avbug]

Joe,

I worked at one time near that area, and flew in and out of Reno, Minden, Yerington, Carson, and most other locations throughout the area on a daily basis. It was constantly on my mind. Rather than moving to avionics soloutions, which may be unworkable for a number of reasons, starting with good old fashioned physical separation by keeping sailplane activity in one are and arrival/departure corridors in another may be a more viable soloution. More of an airspace issue. Drawbacks also exist ranging from weather to limiting soaring ground, which may be worked out...but truly this area has long been an accident waiting to happen. Everybody knows it.

 

[glasspilot]

Let me start by stating that I am not a glider pilot but would very much like to get the cert. (something seems truly pure about gliding and I'd like to try it.) Anyway, I digress...

Talking about the midair with the glider and the jet (I saw the pic of the jet. looks bad)...Why don't you glider pilots put a dang transponder in your aircraft? I know it would cost a few fpm in you thermalling but there has got to be a light and effective way to put a hand held unit in a glider. Maybe if you were as interested in safety devices (I'm talking specifically about the transponder) as you are about an extra 5 foot glide ratio, manufactures would make a very light transponder for gliders.

As a jet pilot I assure you that we do not "see and avoid". Sure down low in the pattern our eyes are outside but above a few thousand feet we mostly look out when the tcas yells traffic or ATC says there's traffic. A glider without a transponder would miss both of those systems.

I see two safe scenarios;

1. gliders get transponders. or...

2. gliders stay is airspace boxes so other planes don't hit 'em.

I swear to God I respect glider pilots. I don't want to restrict gliding. But there has GOT to be a way to put a transponder in a glider.
After all, we can put a Man on the Moon right? A computer chip in a dog, and a cell phone in the purse of a house wife on a farm in Iowa. Lets put a xponder in gliders.

Fly safe.

 

[ultrarunner]

I find it odd that a glider pilot doesn't WANT to be seen...but then, I'm not a glider pilot.

But I gotta believe that Akihiro Hirao would have appreciated the Hawker getting out of the way if they had gotten a TCAS alert.

Sad part is the Hawker pilot will prly get violated for not 'giving way'.

 

[avbug]

As a jet pilot I assure you that we do not "see and avoid". Sure down low in the pattern our eyes are outside but above a few thousand feet we mostly look out when the tcas yells traffic or ATC says there's traffic.

Speak for yourself, mate. I most certainly do see and avoid. At higher speeds, particularly above 10,000, this becomes more difficult due to higher closure rates, but I'm all lights-on and eyes-out once below FL180. I treat the matter like my life depends upon it. Because it does.

Think about your peanut gyro and the minimal time you have on the standby power source. A half hour, right? For the weight in a sailplane, installing a transponder (never mind the cost), there's still very little time out of a battery for that transponder. Some use them, some use solar trickle chargers, but between the weight penalty and the balance issues...it's not practical (to say nothing of the cost).

Perhaps you're one who believes that aircraft without radios are dangerous...but the law has always been, and is now, SEE and avoid, not listen and avoid. Not let the fish finder see and avoid, but you, the certificated pilot, see and avoid. Get your head out of the cockpit and see, and avoid.

Sad part is the Hawker pilot will prly get violated for not 'giving way'.

That is never going to happen.

 

[n32jk]

Let me start by stating that I am not a glider pilot but would very much like to get the cert. (something seems truly pure about gliding and I'd like to try it.) Anyway, I digress...

Talking about the midair with the glider and the jet (I saw the pic of the jet. looks bad)...Why don't you glider pilots put a dang transponder in your aircraft? I know it would cost a few fpm in you thermalling but there has got to be a light and effective way to put a hand held unit in a glider. Maybe if you were as interested in safety devices (I'm talking specifically about the transponder) as you are about an extra 5 foot glide ratio, manufactures would make a very light transponder for gliders.

As a jet pilot I assure you that we do not "see and avoid". Sure down low in the pattern our eyes are outside but above a few thousand feet we mostly look out when the tcas yells traffic or ATC says there's traffic. A glider without a transponder would miss both of those systems.

I see two safe scenarios;

1. gliders get transponders. or...

2. gliders stay is airspace boxes so other planes don't hit 'em.

I swear to God I respect glider pilots. I don't want to restrict gliding. But there has GOT to be a way to put a transponder in a glider.
After all, we can put a Man on the Moon right? A computer chip in a dog, and a cell phone in the purse of a house wife on a farm in Iowa. Lets put a xponder in gliders.

Fly safe.

Let me clarify that I am both a jet pilot and a glider pilot. I DO NOT think restricting giders to Boxes is a good alternative for airspace below 18K. Transponders are not an alternative for all operations as stated eloquently above. Power requiremenst are too great, especially since as of now the regulations state if you got it, it has to be on. That is why maybe something like above 12K must have. If installed only need be on when required by above mentioned ,,,, etc.

Gliders fly cross country, much of it at lower altitudes. What you suggest would make flying a sailplane more restrictive than a skyhawk. I can gaurantee that glider pilots look outside more than your average cessna pilot.

Some areas beg for more oversight than others. Restrict gliders more than ultralights or cessna's is not the answer.

Joe

 

[glasspilot]

Speak for yourself, mate. I most certainly do see and avoid.

Get your head out of the cockpit and see, and avoid.

Hey Avbug;

1st: I'm not your "mate".

2nd: I'm telling you what is. I know everyone would like to believe professional pilots are constantly looking outside. But believe me that is NOT the case. In all my years of flying I've never met a pilot that as spent a great deal of time looking out the window unless the TCAS is going off or ATC says there's traffic. I've been an FO and a CA. I've commuted for over 7 years. In all of that time none of my "pilots in the other seat" or even the "major airline pilots" of the airplane I was jumpseating on have done it either. Below a few thousand feed...yes, we look outside a great deal more. Above a few thousand feet...it's pretty much instrumentation. Right or wrong it's a fact. I've been in flight in the jumpseat at night and seen the CA turn on the dome light so he could read the newspaper and eat his diner. I don't mean to drone on but it is just a fact of life; it is the extremely rare jet pilot that looks outside on his own for traffic when flying. TCAS has done a wonderful job of preventing midairs but it has also made pilots more reliant on electronic equipment to avoid those same midair collisions

I really do respect glider pilots and that is sort of the reason I even made it to this thread, but I'm also telling you the truth from an airline/cargo/corporate point of view. Airplanes without transponders operating where other airline/cargo/corporate aircraft operate is a recipe for problems.

I can't think of a reason a transponder couldn't be installed in any airplane. With today's electronics capabilities they could make a hand held or a very cheap panel mount that would fix the problem. I truly think America has enough airspace for everyone to get what they want out of aviation.

Fly safe.

 

[avbug]

I'm telling you what is.

No, mate, you're not.

The law is see and avoid. I strive very hard to respect that law. That you do not may be your reality, but it's your shortfall; it's your failing.

Admitting it is the first step. Now pull your head out of the cockpit and LOOK!!

 

[glasspilot]

No, mate, you're not.

The law is see and avoid. I strive very hard to respect that law. That you do not may be your reality, but it's your shortfall; it's your failing.

Admitting it is the first step. Now pull your head out of the cockpit and LOOK!!

Well, you've flown "all" of the aircraft and have "all" of the ratings and with over 5,000 post on this board I guess you know what happens. My apologizes, you're right.

 

[Gorilla]

Sorry, I refuse to buy the concept that a glider transponder weighs too much or draws too much power. Any glider tooling around above 10,000' is very likely a pretty advanced ship with water ballast and all kinds of goodies to make it competitive.

Get yourself a modern Lithium-Poly battery and a transponder; it'll work fine for any concievable duration and cost you perhaps 5 to 8 pounds. Big deal. The problem isn't technical, it's being cheap and simply not wanting to hassle with it.

 

[USMCmech]

The club where I fly gliders near SAT has transponders installed in some aircraft, and comm radios in them all which we use to monitor approach. I frequently call aproach and let them know where I am at and that I will be monitoring their freq.

It is esspecially important because the airport we fly out of is right under the approach corridor for 12R at SAT.

RE: "see and avoid", it's wishfull thinking in the world of jet aircraft. I have a hard enough time spoting aircraft when ATC tells me where they are at, much less random small objects like a glider aproaching at over 200kts closure.

Do I keep scanning for traffic, you bet. But I am also aware of the limitations of the human eyes and brain.

 

[Crimson03]

Let's see if I get the jist of this thread. I am supposed to put a 3-4k transponder in my 10k glider, so professional jet pilots can safely read the newspaper at work. If you're not looking out the window what' the hell is the point of flying? Chicks? Money? Prestige?
Pathetic

 

[MJG]

And as both a jet airliner pilot and glider pilot I can say, therein lies the problem. Gliders are relatively cheap as far as aviation costs go. Adding a transponder requirement would force a lot of folks out of the sport I'm afraid. It wouldn't just be the initial cost of buying/installing a xpnder, it would be the upkeep and the required checks that would be involved that would really put the costs up there.

But on the other hand I do think something needs to be in place in areas where gliders are regularly mixing with powered aircraft at the higher altitudes. What's the solution?? I'm not sure.......

 

[Lead Sled]

Hey, I fly a jet and I've got a CFIG. I've owned a glider that had a full gyro panel in it (electrical powered) at one time. Personally, I agree 100% with Avbug - it's see and avoid baby whether you're in a jet or a glider. (One of my pet peaves are pilots of high-performance turboprop and turbojet aircraft who habitually hand fly their aircraft at altitudes and in airspace where VFR aircraft can be an issue. That's why they put autopilots in our airplanes. You need at least 2 and perferably 4 eyeball looking out the window. But hey, that's just me.)

Perhaps the regs are lacking when it comes to transponder operation and glider operations, but we never had a problem getting 3 or 4 hours out of a battery pack and we always had a couple of battery packs charged up and ready to go. Unfortunately, it's going to take a tragedy along the lines of the near-miss that recently occurred before the Feds step in and force a "politically correct" solution on us.

I don't buy the "cost" argument either - transponders and encoders are dirt cheap when compared what guys are paying for today's glass ubber-gliders.

We recently moved our base of operations to CRQ and we've already seen one glider pass under us as we descended out of altitude out near Thermal. I've got no beef with those guys, they have every right to be there. (I'm counting down the days when I will be able to join them.) However, they need to realize that for the most part, they're flying a stealth aircraft in busy airspace. A transponder and encoder and a discrete code would go a long way toward keeping incidents like this from occurring.

LS

 

[avbug]

The issue regarding mode S, TCAS, and pilots who don't look out the window is great if one presupposes that the goal is to protect corporate jet pilots. I've spent enough time looking at TCAS to know it's value, but I've also spent enough time in aircraft that don't have it to know that eyes up are the law. Never mind the snide remarks from various posters who can't seem to intelligently recognize this fact (not opinion)...it's a basic requirement of flight under IFR and VFR.

I've been down in that same area and come up on sailplanes around palm springs that have come out of Hemet, close to the hills, them doing their thing and ridge soaring, and me doing my thing and looking for smoke. Neither with TCAS in that case, me with a transponder, but then who cares? The transponder won't fend off aircraft or prevent the strike, particularly if the other aircraft isn't TCAS equipped, or if the aircraft involved aren't participating.

Some of the most notable mid air collisions in recent history have occured between aircraft that have been using transponders and that have been under positive radar control. One in particular that involved TCAS equipped aircraft.

Frequently I see plots who have become too accustomed to having their shoes polished and their work done for them by automation being quick to condemn the free world that isn't operating at their level of sophisitication. I've seen it in my own cockpit. I flew with an individual years ago who cried to high heaven because the aircraft we had didn't have turn anticipation and needed a little help to level off. Others who cried bloody murder if they had to fly in uncontrolled airspace. Many who forever called "any inbound traffic, please advise!" Folks who want the radio to look for traffic, believe if TCAS doesn't see it, it isn't there (nobody ever saw an aircraft blow by at altitude and didn't see it on TCAS, huh?). More than a few who above 10,000' really thought it was okay to clip an enroute chart to the sun visor and read a magazine.

I'm sure that some of the posters never bother to look outside and perhaps they've jumpseated with plenty of crews who do the same. Guess what? That makes all of you wrong. And dangerous. Doesn't make it right.

 

[glasspilot]

Avbug and others,

I reread my post and I'm a little concerned that I've come off wrong. I never intended to find myself arguing that pilots shouldn't look outside. They / we all should. My intent was to stress that very few high performance aircraft pilots look out, let's say, "as much as we should". Even if you are very diligent about constantly looking out side there are times that cockpit duties require your attention inside. (yes you should split the duties in that case but many times it doesn't happen) The point is I think putting a cheap xponder in all aircraft and especially gliders, with their low profile, would be well worth it. Well all complain about the reactionary style of the FAA. They never seem to make a rule unless someone or a lot of people die first. Well, the xponder issue just makes sense to me.

Again, I apologize if my previous posts came off as flame. Fly safe.

 

[tonycondon]

It really doesnt take much of a fancy glider to get to 10,000 + out in the western basin. In fact, an older, lower wing loaded glider like mine would actually outclimb a new fiberglass $100,000 ship full of water as my sink rate is lower. I carry a handheld radio with me when I fly, hooked up to a plantronics headset, and I keep my eyes outside. Got hardly any instruments to look at anyway. Tell me I have to put a transponder in my glider and Ill sell mine. A "cheap" transponder will cost almost as much as my glider did, plus the added weight of a satisfactory battery for a 5 or 6 hour flight and the actual equipment would mean I would have to lose some weight, I guess that would be a good consequence.

 

[MJG]

The point is I think putting a cheap xponder in all aircraft and especially gliders, with their low profile, would be well worth it. Well all complain about the reactionary style of the FAA. They never seem to make a rule unless someone or a lot of people die first. Well, the xponder issue just makes sense to me.

But that's just the thing. Nothing the FAA mandates ends up being cheap. So my club with it's four gliders would have to increase our yearly dues by who knows how much just to pay for such an additional requirement. We already struggle to attract and retain members as our dues are already $500/year just for club membership, this doesn't include any tow fees.

Maybe I'm just out of the loop. Are there any "cheap" transponders, that are FAA approved, require little or no maintenance, require low power supply, are of a low weight and easy to install and operate? If so maybe they would be the answer.

Each of us has differing views on what is expensive or not. To one of us an additional $1000.oo transponder is not going to break the bank, but to someone else, like tony says above, that may be a significant cost to the point of forcing that person to sell their glider and get out of the sport all together.

 

[Lead Sled]

...Nothing the FAA mandates ends up being cheap. So my club with it's four gliders would have to increase our yearly dues by who knows how much just to pay for such an additional requirement. We already struggle to attract and retain members as our dues are already $500/year just for club membership, this doesn't include any tow fees...

Each of us has differing views on what is expensive or not. To one of us an additional $1000.00 transponder is not going to break the bank, but to someone else, like tony says above, that may be a significant cost to the point of forcing that person to sell their glider and get out of the sport all together.

I don't mean to sound patronizing, but I wonder how much the sailplane pilot involved in last week's incident would be willing to pay for a transponder and battery pack now?

Granted, not every glider would need them - just the ones being operated in areas where there is a chance of tangling with high speed traffic.

LS

 

[glasspilot]

Maybe the answer lies somewhere in the middle. Make big 'ol glider boxes that anyone can be in and keep IFR traffic out (like MOA's are now) and if you want to go on your cross country or fly outside the box you need a transponder.

Does that seem too restrictive or a workable compromise?

 

[Way2Broke]

Hey Avbug;

1st: I'm not your "mate".

2nd: I'm telling you what is. I know everyone would like to believe professional pilots are constantly looking outside. But believe me that is NOT the case. In all my years of flying I've never met a pilot that as spent a great deal of time looking out the window unless the TCAS is going off or ATC says there's traffic. I've been an FO and a CA. I've commuted for over 7 years. In all of that time none of my "pilots in the other seat" or even the "major airline pilots" of the airplane I was jumpseating on have done it either. Below a few thousand feed...yes, we look outside a great deal more. Above a few thousand feet...it's pretty much instrumentation. Right or wrong it's a fact. I've been in flight in the jumpseat at night and seen the CA turn on the dome light so he could read the newspaper and eat his diner. I don't mean to drone on but it is just a fact of life; it is the extremely rare jet pilot that looks outside on his own for traffic when flying. TCAS has done a wonderful job of preventing midairs but it has also made pilots more reliant on electronic equipment to avoid those same midair collisions

I really do respect glider pilots and that is sort of the reason I even made it to this thread, but I'm also telling you the truth from an airline/cargo/corporate point of view. Airplanes without transponders operating where other airline/cargo/corporate aircraft operate is a recipe for problems.

I can't think of a reason a transponder couldn't be installed in any airplane. With today's electronics capabilities they could make a hand held or a very cheap panel mount that would fix the problem. I truly think America has enough airspace for everyone to get what they want out of aviation.

Fly safe.

Pilots depending on TCAS to see and avoid instead of keeping their eyes outside is a recipe for disaster. I recommend you look outside more and quit relying on your "glass". This is a concept taught to private pilots pre-solo. I would hope that you can still handle pre-solo type expectations.

I can think of a reason that a x-ponder would not be installed in a plane, and that is that not all aircraft have electrical systems. As a previous poster pointed out, glider pilots are cheap, they don't even buy a engine. Now your going to ask them to get field approval for a electrical system, and transponder installation. In some cases that could cost more than the craft itself.

The one thing I agree with you on is that not enough pilots look outside, and this is true no matter what type of equipment you are flying.

Edit: I read the entire thread. All of us have came off "wrong" on a internet message board before. The inability to use tone of voice, etc. etc. is the one downfall of the net. Sorry if I came off strong too.