do you wear a parachute?

[Gorilla]

Let's see if I get the jist of this thread. I am supposed to put a 3-4k transponder in my 10k glider, so professional jet pilots can safely read the newspaper at work. If you're not looking out the window what' the hell is the point of flying? Chicks? Money? Prestige?
Pathetic

No you haven't got it. If I was flying a glider again, I wouldn't use a transponder so the jet puke can read his USA Today, I'd use it as a layer of protection for ME. I don't know who's out there. It's great to pretend they're all on pins and needles with a killer visual lookout, and they won't cream me while I'm thermalling, but the reality is that they are likely half asleep.

If you are counting upon others' actions and equipment to keep you safe, then I'd suggest you rethink how you fly. Like riding a motorcycle, you have to expect the other guy to do something stupid, and protect yourself accordingly.

 

[Lead Sled]

No you haven't got it. If I was flying a glider again, I wouldn't use a transponder so the jet puke can read his USA Today, I'd use it as a layer of protection for ME. I don't know who's out there. It's great to pretend they're all on pins and needles with a killer visual lookout, and they won't cream me while I'm thermalling, but the reality is that they are likely half asleep.

If you are counting upon others' actions and equipment to keep you safe, then I'd suggest you rethink how you fly. Like riding a motorcycle, you have to expect the other guy to do something stupid, and protect yourself accordingly.

Well said.

LS

 

[avbug]

If you are counting upon others' actions and equipment to keep you safe, then I'd suggest you rethink how you fly.

Ya mean, like installing a transponder in the hopes that the other guy reading his USA Today will see and avoid you using his gadgetry? If you are counting on other's actions, you say...like hoping that your transponder keeps you safe based on someone else's actions and equipment...you'd suggest one rethink how to fly. Just want to make sure I got that...you suggest someone rethinks how to fly if they count on others actions and equipment to keep them safe, and your suggestion is to install a transponder in order to rely upon someone else's actions and equipment to keep them safe. Got it. Doesn't make a lick of sense, but got it.

...but the reality is that they are likely half asleep.

That's a sad reality. A criminal one, but a sad criminal one, at that. Perhaps those whoare half-asleep should either go all the way and stay on the ground...or rethink how they fly, dontcha think??

Eyes-open is, after all the LAW.

 

[Gorilla]

AVbug, your standard level of condescension is noted.

Scenario - You've got a 757 taking radar vectors, or perhaps deviating for WX. There's a composite sailplane out there near his path. Which situation is safer, having the sailplane squawk, or not?

No one is saying you'll become immune to a midair when transponder-equipped. It's a tool to increase awareness and safety for all participants.

 

[avbug]

I'm not argueing that inclusion of a transponder wouldn't enhance safety. Not at all. However, a LOT of aircraft out there don't have electrical systems, and a lot more don't have TCAS.

What about the rest of the aircraft that don't have electrical systems, or the non-transponder equipped aircraft. Put transponders in all of them? Or just sailplanes? The Reno area, being one of the premier gliding sites in the world, is an area that requires high vigilence. ATIS at Reno warns about it, and aircraft learn of it many miles out. ATC radar may or may not be able to see other traffic in the area, and is limited at lower altitudes due to terrain. ATC may not see that sailplane, and ATC may not see that other aircraft that's experiencing an equipment failure, not equipped at all, or is simply squawking low or off.

But what I'm hearing are pilots bleating that it's far too hard to be required to look outside. Pick the excuse of choice. We're moving too fast. Our view is too limited. We have too high a workload. Our eyes aren't as good. We're asleep half the time. We have TCAS/ATC/the captain/the f/o to do that for us. Ad nauseum. Therefore, why should we be exposed to such hazardous things....let us read our USA today and let the aircraft that doesn't even have an electrical system find a way to power up and shine so that our equipment may find him for us. Any inbound traffic please advise.

I recall an expression that was drummed into our little skulls as Cadets, and still rings true today. No excuse, sir! No excuse.

Condescension, you say. I say the law, there in black and white, clear as day and the schnozz upon your face, irrevocable in nature and equally applicable to the student pilot as to the ATP. See and avoid. But we're sleeping, you say. See and avoid is the law, I say; read it for your self. That's condescending, you say. We have our USA today to read. It's the law, I say, read it for yourself. Not my opinion, but the law. In black and white. But nobody looks outside, you say. You're being condscending, don't expect what isn't reality. Reality is that see and avoid is the law, I say; read it for yourself. You are not exempt, neither am I. If the truth is condescension, then so be it.

In our single engine air tankers, we found that repainting the fleet red and white enhanced visibility greatly, and it became regulatory, right down to the shade of paint and the width of the stripes. And reports are univerally favorable. Perhaps we should require everybody to go to high visibility paint schemes. Perhaps the gliders should power up 250 watt recognition lights on the wings, too. And strobes. Perhaps we should paint that Falcon 50 or Hawker 800XP or G-V white and red, forget the corporate colors or ninety thousand dollar paint job. Perhaps educate corporate and airline and general aviation (in general) regarding glider flying practices and educate glider pilots regarding airways arrival corridors, departure proceedures and STARs. Perhaps sailplanes should all have radios (most do) and should be talking and on a flight plan, and airspace blocks and separations assigned.

Or perhaps the first step is for those with all the gadgets and who scream the loudest to stop sleeping on the job, put down their USA today, wake up to the reality that see and avoid still applies to them, and pry their eyes off the fish finder long enough to do a proper scan outside for traffic.

So long as the gliders will be strapping on transponders, how about if all the corporate and airline traffic straps on parachutes?

Safety.

 

[Lead Sled]

Hells bells guys...
When I was flying gliders along the Wasatch Front we would let ATC know we were there. We had a radio and transponder and it wasn't a big deal. Our "electrical system" was very rudimentary and cheap. but it worked and worked well. After all, what is the amp draw of a modern transciever and transponder? Not much. Having a transponder equipped glider isn't going to eliminate all of the risks, but it will add another level of protection to your operation.

LS

 

[Gorilla]

Hells bells guys...
When I was flying gliders along the Wasatch Front we would let ATC know we were there. We had a radio and transponder and it wasn't a big deal. Our "electrical system" was very rudimentary and cheap. but it worked and worked well. After all, what is the amp draw of a modern transciever and transponder? Not much. Having a transponder equipped glider isn't going to eliminate all of the risks, but it will add another level of protection to your operation.

LS

Exactly. You can add an "electrical system" to anything that flies. It's called a Lithium Polymer, NiCD, or NiMH battery, some red and black wire, maybe a switch, and the device of your choice.

I am not advocating mandatory compliance. It's simple prudence. Wearing leathers and a helmet when you motorcycle, or reflective clothing when you jog. A transponder says "Here I am!" Maybe ATC can give a timely heads up to something fast with some less-than-sharp guys at the controls.

 

[Lead Sled]

A transponder says "Here I am!" Maybe ATC can give a timely heads up to something fast with some less-than-sharp guys at the controls.

That's all that it's for, just another set of eyes looking out for you. And it's not just for those less than sharp guys - a glider is pretty stealthy. These glass ships have very little metal in them to reflect radar. They're comparatively small and pretty near all of them are pure white. They can be pretty tough to see when you're looking for them. As far as radar goes, they are darn near invisible.

LS

 

[glasspilot]

If you just drone on about the legality of an issue you miss an important point in my opinion. Consider this;

We all know that the PIC is to be familiar with ALL aspects pertaining to his or her flight right? Well, I suppose it could be argued that if a jet (with two pilots reading the USA Today) slammed into a glider then the glider pilot could be found at fault with the law. The jet was on an IFR flight plan. The fact that the jet hit the glider makes it extreamly relevant to the gliders flight. Therefore the glider pilot failed to become familiar with ALL aspects of his flight.

Obviously this is insane, but it's also crazy to say, "the law is see and avoid" and use that to justify the exclusion of any and all other safety measures.

 

[Lead Sled]

Being on an IFR flight plan does not excuse you from See and Avoid. ATC is not there to provide separation from VFR traffic. If a jet overruns a glider, someone in the jet wasn't paying enough attention. (I'm pretty sure the glider didn't overrun the jet. )

Am I missing something? However, it's possible to be "Dead Right" as well. Using the motorcycle analogy, I spent a few years flying air ambulance. I picked up a lot of motorcyclists - most of them had done nothing wrong either. In this case, I'm sure that the glider pilot probaby could have been more vigilant as well.

LS