DL/NW Regional Geometry

[Superpilot92]

You need to stop throwing around your assumptions about "you DAL guys."

I'm the "guy" constantly arguing that scope needs to be stronger and that this flying should remain on mainline's list. The best way would be a SSL. My Reps have my input. Do yours have your input yet?

Well i would love to but here recently i have seen you and others saying that 70 seaters are going to be replacing the dc9s. The only way to do that with the nwa scope clause is if Mainline gets new aircraft first. While a SSL would be nice its probably never going to happen. However protecting scope right now IS possible. You dont see any NWA guys saying that the 9's are going to be replaced completely with 70 seaters because right now we are protected. We need to keep that protection and make sure scope is maintained or made tighter. If you are voicing that, then by all means keep it up!! We all should be doing that. I am doing everything i can do to keep this subject in the forefront.

Hows training going?

 

[DoinTime]

A staple for Compass would be a good start.

First, a "staple" is never a good place to start. Second, why the discrimination on all of the other DCI/NW Airlink pilots that fly the same class of aircraft?

Thought processes like this are the reason why they always fail.

 

[Superpilot92]

First, a "staple" is never a good place to start. Second, why the discrimination on all of the other DCI/NW Airlink pilots that fly the same class of aircraft?

Thought processes like this are the reason why they always fail.

Wrong, A staple of Compass is a great place to start. Its better for them as they dont have to wait the 30 months and miss out on further seniority.

 

[Superpilot92]

I think you should be preaching to your pops about giving up scope at NWA and stop bashing the DAL guys.

The 9's are going to go away and so are the jobs.....unfortunate for you and every one who jumped ship within the last 6 months to go to NWA....but at least you have Compas as a fall back somewhat.

First i am not trying to "bash" the DAL guys i am just making sure the subject is talked about. Also you are Wrong about the 9 flying, it is currently protected under NWA scope. Sure the DC9s will eventually go away but those jobs shouldn't just go away and wont just go away unless they are let go! While its nice the compass deal is available i hope i dont have to use it even though that would give me a pay raise sooner. Lets hope nobody gets displaced, i guess we will see.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Superpilot92:

Here ya' go.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25CYL1kpm04

 

[ACL65PILOT]

DC-9 JT8D engines 3000~ per side per hr. 6K
M-88 JT8D engines about the same
757 in cruise above 350. 2.7 per hr per side
767 above 350 4.0-4.8 per hr per side.
RJ-50 2.5-2.8 per hr per side
RJ-70 2.7.-2.9 per hr per side

Now you can get all of these lower in LRC but the fact is that the 757 and 767 are still very efficient birds for their age. It just amazes me how little the thing burns. We go from ATL to SAN with 35.0 on the block fuel and burn about 27.0. Not bad for a 2000 mile flight.

Now the RJ DC-9 argument is about CASM. Not fuel alone. The 9's are paid for and can operate a lot cheaper than a RJ or an 88. What it comes down to is which aircraft will provide the most yeild per seat mile. This answer is different for each market on any given day of the week. Hence there will be some of each type of aircraft for a few more years.
The 50's, 9's and 88's are short for this world. Now if oil drops as it should these bad boys will be here until the C-series and the 737E arrive.
Either way if you have 76 seaters on property you are fine. (ASA will get them as SKW is pulling theirs out west) The above posts are correct when it comes to DCI contracts. CMR will hire so that they become attractive to sell. Personally I do not see them doing that unless they can operate Compass and Pinnacle the same way as CMR. (As relief valves to their DCI contracts) CMR is a great way for Delta to stay out of court. You get the growth in good times and the ax in bad.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Superpilot. FWIW your scope will die with the new PWA. Lets make sure that your current verbiage is in there. If not they will have carte blanch on the 9's

 

[ACL65PILOT]

First, a "staple" is never a good place to start. Second, why the discrimination on all of the other DCI/NW Airlink pilots that fly the same class of aircraft?

Thought processes like this are the reason why they always fail.

It is not discrimination. Fact is that Compass shares the same MEC with NWA. That alone is reason enough to add them to our list. I know that a few others are owned by the parent company, but how they are managed in the corporate structure varies. In addition to this you do not share the same MEC ergo your interest diverge from that of the NWA MEC. Now I am sure that we could do this, but it will not happen in the near term. Too many fish are currently in the barrel and need cooking. If it were to happen it would be after Compass came on board.

 

[~~~^~~~]

DC-9 JT8D engines 3000~ per side per hr. 6K
M-88 JT8D engines about the same
757 in cruise above 350. 2.7 per hr per side
767 above 350 4.0-4.8 per hr per side.
RJ-50 2.5-2.8 per hr per side
RJ-70 2.7.-2.9 per hr per side

Now the RJ DC-9 argument is about CASM. Not fuel alone. The 9's are paid for and can operate a lot cheaper than a RJ or an 88. What it comes down to is which aircraft will provide the most yeild per seat mile. This answer is different for each market on any given day of the week.

I agree with everything you wrote, but offer a correction.

The RJ burn you wrote is total, not per side.

If Delta is under contract to pay for the RJ then it is cheaper to park the DC9. It is hard to park assets you are still paying for.

Living in North Georgia I see this frequently. The new car is parked in the front yard, the old car is on blocks around the side of the house.

 

[wmuflyguy]

I agree with everything you wrote, but offer a correction.

The RJ burn you wrote is total, not per side.

Exactly, in cruise the 70 burns anywhere from 1500-1900 a side depending on altitude/speed. (usually somewhere between 1700-1800 at .76 to.78)

 

[Smarta$$]

No more so than a DC9. It is an airplane and has a market.

What we need to do is recognize it for what it is and deal with it. Totally arbitrary lines in the sand do not improve our profession. We need to get this stuff on mainline's list. A staple for Compass would be a good start.

Just curious, why the special treatment for this group of pilots that has done nothing to earn this loyalty. Just a bunch of guys that say an oportunity to be at the top of a seniority list flying a nice airplane for a few dollars more than fifty seat pay. In some cases less than fifty seat pay.

Why not just give all Alpa pilots in the DL\NW system a number at the bottom of the big list. It would seem that you are falling for the old trick of only airplanes big enough or nice enough are worth fighting for.

Seniority without longevity costs DL nothing. It should not be that hard.

 

[Superpilot92]

Superpilot92:

Here ya' go.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25CYL1kpm04

Oh yeah its like a dream come true!! Thanks for sharing

 

[DoinTime]

Wrong, A staple of Compass is a great place to start. Its better for them as they dont have to wait the 30 months and miss out on further seniority.

It is not discrimination. Fact is that Compass shares the same MEC with NWA. That alone is reason enough to add them to our list. I know that a few others are owned by the parent company, but how they are managed in the corporate structure varies. In addition to this you do not share the same MEC ergo your interest diverge from that of the NWA MEC. Now I am sure that we could do this, but it will not happen in the near term. Too many fish are currently in the barrel and need cooking. If it were to happen it would be after Compass came on board.

How about the Champion pilots? They should get preferential treatment prior to Compass pilots. They are out of work you know.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Seniority without longevity costs DL nothing. It should not be that hard.

You'd think, but in reality the political battle may be overwhelming.

Many pilots see it as a big deal to fly for Delta and the truth is, it IS a big deal. It is not arrogance, it simply is a good place to work (while that lasts).

Most people who work at Delta are at their first choice airline. Once they get in the door there are more like minded people who reinforce that opinion.

 

[Superpilot92]

How about the Champion pilots? They should get preferential treatment prior to Compass pilots.

Champion didn't have a flowthrough and wasn't represented by the NWA MEC were they?

 

[Smarta$$]

Champion didn't have a flowthrough and wasn't represented by the NWA MEC were they?

Meaningless. You just want the 175 on your list. History repeating itself. Chosing which airplanes are worthy of the mighty mainline pilot. To good to fly the CR9 or CR2.

You may like the airplane and want the job security and more bidding options and people below you on the list, but there are alot more deserving pilots than the compass newhires of the last 6-18 months.

 

[Superpilot92]

Meaningless. You just want the 175 on your list. History repeating itself. Chosing which airplanes are worthy of the mighty mainline pilot. To good to fly the CR9 or CR2.

You may like the airplane and want the job security and more bidding options and people below you on the list, but there are alot more deserving pilots than the compass newhires of the last 6-18 months.

Look relax i would love to have all of you brought on and stuck down at the bottom, wouldn't that be better for me than just Compass? You asked, "To good to fly a CR9 or CR2?", not so much, you're preaching up the choir about flying a "small rj". I just left a job flying one and would fly another one in a heartbeat if it meant more planes on the mailine ticket. The simple point is that for the senior guys here it makes more sense to bring the E175s on board because they should have been here in the first place instead of making them separate.

 

[MJ42]

Meaningless. You just want the 175 on your list. History repeating itself. Chosing which airplanes are worthy of the mighty mainline pilot. To good to fly the CR9 or CR2. I'd say a majority of us already have flown these type of aircraft.

You may like the airplane and want the job security and more bidding options and people below you on the list, but there are alot more deserving pilots than the compass newhires of the last 6-18 months.

Ah yes, the "entitlement" card. Sorry, but Fins and Superpilot have the right idea.

 

[Smarta$$]

NO, they don't. This is the same old "only certain planes belong at mainline". This is the same thinking that got us in this scope mess in the first place. So you are moving the line in the sand down one airframe. Woopdy Fing do da. By saying that this one specific airframe should have been at the mainline is just reinforcing that the CR9 and CR2 should not have been. You are falling for the same old game.

And now you want to "entitle" a bunch of 6-18 month "regional" newhires with a windfall seniority number. They have done nothing to deserve that "entitlement". Certainly much less than the suffering and service given by the Mesaba, Pinnacle, Comair and ASA pilots. But I guess thier airplanes are not pretty enough for the "entitled" mainline pilots.

 

[Smarta$$]

Point is, you are cherry picking the prettiest airframe, under the arguement that it would be the easiest to integrate. Easy does not make it right.

You know very well that contracting to the cheapest contractor has desimated this profession. Integrating ONE small company, because you like the airplane will do NOTHING to fix the big problem.

 

[DrewBlows]

NO, they don't. This is the same old "only certain planes belong at mainline". This is the same thinking that got us in this scope mess in the first place. So you are moving the line in the sand down one airframe. Woopdy Fing do da. By saying that this one specific airframe should have been at the mainline is just reinforcing that the CR9 and CR2 should not have been. You are falling for the same old game.

And now you want to "entitle" a bunch of 6-18 month "regional" newhires with a windfall seniority number. They have done nothing to deserve that "entitlement". Certainly much less than the suffering and service given by the Mesaba, Pinnacle, Comair and ASA pilots. But I guess thier airplanes are not pretty enough for the "entitled" mainline pilots.

You need to stop this now. You have no idea who the Compass pilots are, where they have came from, or what "dues" they have paid.

You are against an idea that would bring regional airplanes to mainline? You should be calling it a "good start". I don't know what you are so excited for anyway, there is no way Compass or any other regional is going to be absorbed by Delta.

 

[DoinTime]

I don't know what you are so excited for anyway, there is no way Compass or any other regional is going to be absorbed by Delta.

Considering that the Delta pilots don't even want NW pilots at the bottom of their seniority list I'd have to agree that there is NWIH of something like this ever happening.

 

[Superpilot92]

NO, they don't. This is the same old "only certain planes belong at mainline". This is the same thinking that got us in this scope mess in the first place. So you are moving the line in the sand down one airframe. Woopdy Fing do da. By saying that this one specific airframe should have been at the mainline is just reinforcing that the CR9 and CR2 should not have been. You are falling for the same old game.

And now you want to "entitle" a bunch of 6-18 month "regional" newhires with a windfall seniority number. They have done nothing to deserve that "entitlement". Certainly much less than the suffering and service given by the Mesaba, Pinnacle, Comair and ASA pilots. But I guess thier airplanes are not pretty enough for the "entitled" mainline pilots.

Just curious, were you a street CA hired at Pinnacle? If not how long have you been with them? I am trying to understand your entitlement comments. First you accuse me of being "to good to fly a small RJ" and now the Compass guys have a sense of "entitlement"? Thanks for the upcoming clarification.

 

[SpauldingSmails]

You need to stop this now. You have no idea who the Compass pilots are, where they have came from, or what "dues" they have paid.

It's okay Drew, those of us who are there know its refugee camp status.

 

[DrewBlows]

It's okay Drew, those of us who are there know its refugee camp status.

"I kill a communist for fun, but for a green card, I gonna carve him up real nice."



Lol, that's the only quote I can find from this movie that is FI appropriate.

 

[EMB170Pilot]

I am not saying the 50 seaters will completely go away but it will continue to shrink.

No! Get rid of the crjs!

 

[Smarta$$]

Just curious, were you a street CA hired at Pinnacle? If not how long have you been with them? I am trying to understand your entitlement comments. First you accuse me of being "to good to fly a small RJ" and now the Compass guys have a sense of "entitlement"? Thanks for the upcoming clarification.

No, I was not a street captain. The entitlement comments are directed mostly to mj42 (or whatever the guys name is). His comment to me is mixed in on the last page. Because I think the years of service given by the Mesaba, Pinnacle, Comair and ASA pilots should be rewarded with integration LOOOOONG before some compass newhire should, He thinks I have a sense of "entitlement".

You can tell that I disagree with his statements.

But as for supers views, I believe it is cherry picking only an airframe deemed "worthy" AND rewards a new pilot group that has done much LESS to deserve such a windfall.

It is a regional airline. I can prove it, just look at the pay. They just happen to have a nice airplane.

 

[SpauldingSmails]

Lol, that's the only quote I can find from this movie that is FI appropriate.

Haha, yeah I'm at a loss for anything else quotable.

 

[Superpilot92]

No, I was not a street captain. The entitlement comments are directed mostly to mj42 (or whatever the guys name is). His comment to me is mixed in on the last page. Because I think the years of service given by the Mesaba, Pinnacle, Comair and ASA pilots should be rewarded with integration LOOOOONG before some compass newhire should, He thinks I have a sense of "entitlement".

You can tell that I disagree with his statements.

But as for supers views, I believe it is cherry picking only an airframe deemed "worthy" AND rewards a new pilot group that has done much LESS to deserve such a windfall.

It is a regional airline. I can prove it, just look at the pay. They just happen to have a nice airplane.

As for "supers" view, you're wrong all aircraft are "worthy" but i dont make the rules. Compass should have never been separate and the senior guys are figuring that out very quickly thus why they "favor" the aircraft. nothing more nothing less

 

[DoinTime]

As for "supers" view, you're wrong all aircraft are "worthy" but i dont make the rules. Compass should have never been separate and the senior guys are figuring that out very quickly thus why they "favor" the aircraft. nothing more nothing less

Should have never been separate? They were specifically negotiated to be separate. The NW pilots got a $30 million bargaining credit for making them separate. The NW MEC publicly proclaimed that they could not possibly hold on to that flying. Now they should have never been separate?

I seem to remember a very similar sentiment when the Avro's went into service. You can't possibly be telling us that the "senior guys" fell for the same gag twice are you?