DL CRJs

[Monster Buck]

It was MSA's unwillingness to work with NWA/NWA ALPA which forced the creation of CPZ. NWA would have happily placed the 175's on the MSA certificate if they had scope relief from NWA ALPA. NWA ALPA wouldn't give it because MSA ALPA wouldn't sign off on unlimited flowback to these seats. Thus, CPZ was created. NWA ALPA allowed the scope relief being NWA pilots had 100% flowback rights to these seats. MSA wanted the jets with no risk. CPZ pilots stepped up knowing the risks. This is why they are in a better position to be absorbed by mainline than MSA. (WARNING...next opinion only--shared by many) MSA pilots were short sighted as they wanted all the 76 seat flying for themselves if they got the jets--wouldn't allow for unlimited flowback.

There are great threads from 2005(?) on this very subject if anyone cares to do the digging.

Schwanker

You knew us well!

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Where is the opportunity to absorb regional flying? How long is the joint contract that Delta/NWA just agreed to? Is there another opportunity to make changes besides the end of that agreement?

There are always opportunities. We just need to seize them.

Also with the current generation of RJ's being deemed inefficient, the next generation has the chance to go to mainline. The pendulum is swigging the other way. These new ones have all of the attributes of mainline jets. Plus, they are in the 76 plus seat range. Unless we fall on our sword, I foresee it being very hard to companies to outsource this flying.

 

[PuffDriver]

This is the same spiteful attitude that derailed everything back in 2000.
Fact is that no matter what you want to believe, there is no where in any DCI contract that states that the HAVE to renew it.
Realize that ALL DCI carriers are contract carriers and they flying lives and dies by this contract. Contracts at times get canceled or not renewed. It happens all of the time on corporate America.

There really wasn't much to derail. There was either going to be a flow through, or there wasn't. Notwithstanding the "genius" of N2264j in la-puke-ah, there was simply limited to NO support for one list within the ranks of Delta, the contract of any carrier did not REQUIRE it, so there was little legal ground to stand upon either--especially when the contracts DID stipulate which type of transactions required the merging of the lists.

Add to that, the mentality of the senior pilots at the two feeders, and yes, it fell flat on its face.

I just love this:

I do believe, however, that a union should treat all of its members fairly in accordance with its Constitution and By-laws.

How many examples of oxymoron can I find in the RJDCs own files. Let me count the ways. Overplayed hand, grossly.

I agree with you fins, there are too many contract carriers, and they will begin dying on the vine. Unfortunately, some really good folk will also be taken down with the likes of your Joe Merchants and N2264Js-- the true authors of the "ALPA Mutiny".

 

[CptMurf]

I was not in the negotiations so I can't tell you what the MSA MEC said. But I know for a fact that the Mesaba Pilots were willing to "step up". Especially at a time when almost all of our own flying had been at risk with threats from the likes of our parent company with Big Sky and over half of our pilot seniority list gone. There was a hell of a lot more going on than just a simple argument of hard headed Mesaba guys not willing to bend.

Absolutely. Not to mention XJ had tried multiple times prior to 9-11 to get a flowthrough agreement and were shot down by NWA MEC. It was only after 9-11 when multiple mainline furloughs were looming that the NWA MEC brought the flowthrough to the front burner. Guess we were expected to give up our up to 20 years of seniority for a NWA furlough, before we were allowed to flowthrough to mainline. Of course we fought for protections, we saw what happened at Eagle. We knew there had to be protections there, we had invested seniority. CPZ pilot didn't have seniority (there wasn't anyone there), when their flowthrough was negotiated by mainline MEC.

By some peoples logic (of integrating CPZ) here, I as a 10yr XJ guy would have to leave and give up seniority (and XJ's flow) to go to CPZ (agree to CPZ's flow) to be justly integrated because CPZ was created by mainline's MEC. Would you do that? I think I'll stay here till the chips fall.

 

[~~~^~~~]

CptMurf,

What happened to Mesaba in the interim? Things were pretty bleak as I recall.

As is, I can see the chips falling with a Comair / Mesaba rationalization and sale.

You can't really time these things... mergers and furloughs... you have to decide your principles and act accordingly.

At the core each of us are either a person who supports unity in the profession, or someone who acts out of self interest.

My position on one list has not changed through being junior, senior, during hiring times and dry spells. I encourage everyone to decide where they stand on the issue and then to advance their opinion through their Reps.

 

[JoeMerchant]

It will take a political shift away from senior mainline pilots thinking there is a benefit to selling flying that they see as below them and away from regional pilots who believe they are entitled to super seniority on a mainline list.

Point of clarification:

I only want "super seniority" on a mainline list IF the mainline pilots insist on "super seniority" on the regional list.....I have no problem with a staple to the bottom of mainline equipment IF the mainline pilots do the same.....The double standard won't fly...

I just had a CPT lesson with one of our RJ instructors who left ASA many years ago to go to Eastern and then PanAm....After the demise of those two "real jobs"...he returned to ASA and is in his late 50s now....To say his career is worth less than a 27 year old Delta new-hire speaks volumes as to the problem we have in solving this issue.....

Us senior regional "lifers" can work together.....But we will not taken advantage of....

 

[~~~^~~~]

Joe,

He made his choices, as did you and as have I. We live with the result. The value of all NWA and Delta pilots was effected by the SLI result. As with our mutual LCA friend, you keep getting up and going to work if flying is in your blood and you can't imagine a better endeavor to spend your time on.

If there are mergers the starting point has to be status quo. Compass at least has a bridge towards that unity.

You have written before that you have placed your bet with SkyWest, Inc. for better or worse and that you have no interest in coming on board at Delta. We know your vote. There is little point in your joining a debate about one list because we know that you are against one list unless it meets a very specific set of criteria that benefits you.

That's not intended to be an insult. You have explained your position of self interest as an intelligent and considered rebuttal to unity and unionism.

You were not that senior to me and you would not be that junior to me under one list. But, I do think you'd like Delta much more than even the better kinder ASA that exists now.

I'd like to know your thoughts on the pecking order if Compass manages to work out, then Comair, ASA, Mesaba line up (in no particular order). We already see some sniping between Mesaba and Compass and Comair as they jostle over who has better flow opportunities / order. Any ideas on how that gets resolved?

My assumption is that if the group isn't ALPA, they do not have a seat at the table, period.

You'll like the CRJ - great airplane to fly. Did you bid the 70/90 or the 50?

 

[N2264J]

Well if the RJDC says it's true it must be.:laugh:

The RJDC just reported it. It was Woerth and/or Moak who said it in the Atlanta Journal Constitution.

That's probably where Gumby read it.

 

[N2264J]

This is the same spiteful attitude that derailed everything back in 2000.

Spiteful attitude? You seem pretty sensitive when confronted
with the anti union behavior of your MEC.

Fact is that no matter what you want to believe, there is no where in any DCI contract that states that the HAVE to renew it.

You have access to management's contracts with DCI?

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Spiteful attitude? You seem pretty sensitive when confronted
with the anti union behavior of your MEC.




You have access to management's contracts with DCI?

What I have is immaterial, but I can tell you that all expect for the last 10 or so pages that are considered trade secret are on the SEC website. It will take some digging to find them, but they are there. They have been for over three years.
Start with SKW and ASA. It is a good read. About 56 pages are avail. for public use.