Disgusted with Freeloaders at Flops!

[B19 Flyer]

b19, bogart and others of their ilk are creatures who feed on and derive sustenance from disunity. The best argument for union solidarity I’ve seen in a long time is contained within this thread. It is evidence of how the presence, within a union, of a few freeloaders can undermine the solidarity and perceived power of a union, the very power that will be used, or not, during our next round of negotiations. Disunity allows union-busters to twist and distort. Our pilots will have to decide for themselves if they are willing to tolerate this out on the line.

One thing is for sure, the freeloaders will undermine us at the bargaining table if it’s allowed to continue. The way I look at it, these freeloaders have taken and will take food off my families’ table, just like scabs do during a strike. This is because ultimately, if it comes down to it again, management will count the freeloaders among those who can be counted upon to scab. Simply put, it affects managements’ arithmetic in bargaining.

For the benefit of gunfyter and others: After the contract was ratified, the 1108 E-Board began offering a payment plan to pilots who did not pay their dues pre-contract, it amounts to about $50 per month. In exchange for signing a promissory note, previous non-members are made members in good standing from the date of signing. As a result, from what I’m told, most of our pilots are in good standing with their union. The freeloaders represent a very small minority of the pilot group, who have very little reason, other than simple greed, or union animus, not to get in good standing.

To the E-Board: I say again, show us the list. How long are you going to allow these few individuals to undermine us like this? Haven’t you had enough?

You see, there are those that believe in the job security of a union, and those the believe in the unity of the company.

Right now you are watching an airline boot one labor group after another in Atlanta.

This same company watched the only significant union on the property bring the company into bankruptcy just a few short years ago.

Why do you feel that payment of these dues is warranted when it's not required? Your union blackmailed your company and forced these pilots into slave labor under a contract they didn't want in the first place.

Your union doesn't give a sweet crap about any other employee in the company, and there is nothing more that creates disunity within the organization.

You proudly wave the "unity" banner for your pilots, while ALL the other employees and coworkers view your group as a cancer based on "disunity" poised to destroy the rest of them.

Ask those former NWA workers how much the unions protected them and their jobs. Now they have an opportunity to have their freedom, and they are showing that is preferred over the tyranny of a union.

The contract is the contract, and forcing those to pay when they are not required is nothing more than extortion and blackmail.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Which union do the Wall Street dudes that collapsed the economy and caused the furloughs and unemployment crisis belong to?

Corruption and greed may be the cornerstone of union society, but it's not limited to just unions.

 

[wacoflyr]

You see, there are those that believe in the job security of a union, and those the believe in the unity of the company.

You are right. This is the crux of the matter. Most people, pilots included, want desperately to believe in the unity of their company. I do. But when that unity is shattered by dishonest manipulation by management, then some pilots, or Boeing engineers, or autoworkers, or what have you, turn to the only recourse they have, which is a union.
B19, you once told me that I had no ability to bargain for my compensation, because I had agreed to work in a job that is paid according to scale. You were right, and I agreed with you. I also understood this when I took the job, and have no issue with the situation. What does an employee do then, when management changes the scale? How about if that same employee sees management getting a raise at the same time? The pilot can't simply quit, because he has invested his time in the company. He has trained on the company aircraft, he has climbed the pilot list, and to start over at another company, if any are hiring, would send him back to the beginning, in a manner that is far worse than in most occupations.
The vast majority of pilots that I talk to hate unions. We are independent by nature. We do not want to pay into an organization to represent us, because we would far rather face management ourselves with whatever situation arises during our employment. We manage our own risks. That is our nature. But when pilots are faced with lies, paycuts, cuts in quality of life, and then have to watch from the sidelines while management takes raises, what would you have them do?
An individual pilot cannot change a management team that he has to answer to. Pilots who try to do that fail to pass training that they know they aced, they are asked to fly impossible schedules, or they are simply fired. And if the pilot does nothing then his family suffers, because his schedule is lengthened, or his pay is cut, or both. This is a serious question. I have asked it of you several times before, and you have not answered. Your failure to answer this simple question, for many months now, is the biggest flaw in your argument. You don't believe that we should form unions. I sure don't want a union. Most pilots don't. But what would you suggest that beleaguered pilots do?

 

[William Holiday]

Corruption and greed may be the cornerstone of union society, but it's not limited to just unions.

You got that right...Just watch your congress in action right now.
Millions of unemployed and all they want is more tax cuts, so they can outsource even more business. Everybody better check six. these bastards want it all......

 

[fob727]

Corruption and greed may be the cornerstone of union society, but it's not limited to just unions.

You got that right...Just watch your congress in action right now.
Millions of unemployed and all they want is more tax cuts, so they can outsource even more business. Everybody better check six. these bastards want it all......

Jeez......gmafb!

 

[B19 Flyer]

What does an employee do then, when management changes the scale? How about if that same employee sees management getting a raise at the same time? The pilot can't simply quit, because he has invested his time in the company. He has trained on the company aircraft, he has climbed the pilot list, and to start over at another company, if any are hiring, would send him back to the beginning, in a manner that is far worse than in most occupations.
The vast majority of pilots that I talk to hate unions. We are independent by nature. We do not want to pay into an organization to represent us, because we would far rather face management ourselves with whatever situation arises during our employment. We manage our own risks. That is our nature. But when pilots are faced with lies, paycuts, cuts in quality of life, and then have to watch from the sidelines while management takes raises, what would you have them do?
An individual pilot cannot change a management team that he has to answer to. Pilots who try to do that fail to pass training that they know they aced, they are asked to fly impossible schedules, or they are simply fired. And if the pilot does nothing then his family suffers, because his schedule is lengthened, or his pay is cut, or both. This is a serious question. I have asked it of you several times before, and you have not answered. Your failure to answer this simple question, for many months now, is the biggest flaw in your argument. You don't believe that we should form unions. I sure don't want a union. Most pilots don't. But what would you suggest that beleaguered pilots do?

I have answered, but not directly to you. I’ve said this before, but I’ll say it again. Because unions have changed the fabric of the industry, there is no easy answer. Putting a new union into a non- union company though will hurt these pilots rather than help them.
Here is the union issue at its greatest point of destruction for what is fair. Unions have destroyed the freedom of pilots to sell their talents to the highest bidder.
Because unions have modeled seniority as the primary method of promotion within the industry, a pilot is not free to “fire” the company he doesn’t like and freely move to another that provides a working environment matching his skills without paying a high price by losing seniority and pay. This is a union issue, not a free market issue. The rest of us have the option to sell our skills to the highest bidder. Pilots don’t!
Union based airlines are not free to promote or hire Captains based on internal recommendations or by talent to place the best talent in the left seat, the union seniority number is everything. Union based airlines can’t pick and choose the most qualified resumes to fly the equipment. The American way for any company to succeed is to hire and promote the best people and not doing it based on length of seniority.
It is virtually impossible for a pilot to move freely from company to company selling his skills to the highest bidder. Any company would love an opportunity to hire the most qualified individuals and talented pilots to operate their equipment. Because the die has been cast by unions, pilots hiring or promotion from within to make sure the best and brightest are flying the equipment is not possible.
Do I have an answer? Not for the average pilot. Unions have changed the fabric of the industry. The only thing I can suggest is to make your employment decision the best you can and learn to live within the system. What is happening right now at Delta will make it interesting for the rest of the industry. By voting union after union out, it shows that employees believe in the COMPANY and not the union.

 

[B19 Flyer]

b19, bogart and others of their ilk are creatures who feed on and derive sustenance from disunity. The best argument for union solidarity I’ve seen in a long time is contained within this thread. It is evidence of how the presence, within a union, of a few freeloaders can undermine the solidarity and perceived power of a union, the very power that will be used, or not, during our next round of negotiations. Disunity allows union-busters to twist and distort. Our pilots will have to decide for themselves if they are willing to tolerate this out on the line.

One thing is for sure, the freeloaders will undermine us at the bargaining table if it’s allowed to continue. The way I look at it, these freeloaders have taken and will take food off my families’ table, just like scabs do during a strike. This is because ultimately, if it comes down to it again, management will count the freeloaders among those who can be counted upon to scab. Simply put, it affects managements’ arithmetic in bargaining.

For the benefit of gunfyter and others: After the contract was ratified, the 1108 E-Board began offering a payment plan to pilots who did not pay their dues pre-contract, it amounts to about $50 per month. In exchange for signing a promissory note, previous non-members are made members in good standing from the date of signing. As a result, from what I’m told, most of our pilots are in good standing with their union. The freeloaders represent a very small minority of the pilot group, who have very little reason, other than simple greed, or union animus, not to get in good standing.

To the E-Board: I say again, show us the list. How long are you going to allow these few individuals to undermine us like this? Haven’t you had enough?

Why do YOU and YOU'RE union feel that the contract doesn't apply to YOU?

Why do you feel so empowered to tell those with a valid contract that clearly states they don't have to pay before April that they need to pay something that legally they don't?

Deal with it... the contract protects them. The contract has taken food from THEIR table.

 

[gunfyter]

The rest of us have the option to sell our skills to the highest bidder. Pilots don’t!

Because of management imposed Training Contracts!

Don't give me this Airlines love free markets crap. Braniff? Legend? Predatory pricing to put them out of business and then jack up prices.

People are furloughed has nothing to do with the presence of a union. Neither does a crappy contract. I am sure the Company offered a better deal and the union said , "NO!"

 

[acpilot]

The rest of us have the option to sell our skills to the highest bidder. Pilots don’t!

A voice of reason! Thank you B19!

Look at who needs unions. Plumbers, carpenters, electricians, pilots, etc. Do doctors need one? No. Do lawyers? No. Engineers? No. Business managers? No. Architects? No. Why is that? They’re “professionals.”

Doctors, lawyers, and engineers are hard to replace, if they can even BE replaced. A manager with years of experience has built relationships, a knowledge base, the connections, and resources that are often irreplaceable in their field. A lawyer can pay for himself many times over by providing sound legal advice.

So, what does a pilot have? How is a 10,000hr pilot better than a 6,000hr pilot? Is a 15,000hr pilot measurably or significantly “safer” than a 10,000hr pilot? How can one pilot differentiate from another?

Marketable skills talk. Pilots, by and large, are just pilots. They can only do one thing well...and it's not that hard (proof: even I can do it).

What unions don’t recognize:
You can command respect only if you can legitimately threaten to get up and walk. Pilots can't do that. Intel doesn't need 757 captains. GE doesn't want a CRJ F/O. IBM won't hire you just because you hold a type. If unions want to serve the pilots, they would provide pilots with the tools necessary to get up and walk away should the need arise. They would encourage their members to seek, and provide assistance for, four-year degrees, MBAs, other advanced degrees, technical certificates, etc.

Sure, you don’t need an education to fly a plane, but you need one to be taken seriously in the real world. Times have changed.

 

[gunfyter]

A voice of reason! Thank you B19!

Look at who needs unions. Plumbers, carpenters, electricians, pilots, etc. Do doctors need one? No. Do lawyers? No. Engineers? No. Business managers? No. Architects? No. Why is that? They’re “professionals.”

Doctors, lawyers, and engineers are hard to replace, if they can even BE replaced. .

I got news for you. Some Doctors and engineers are being outsourced via the internet to foreign countries. If you are a Radiologist Is radiology in danger of being outsourced?

Here's (Outsourcing Your Heart) an article that Time had on the subject. (However, if I had to guess, I'd say that the medical field as a whole isn't in danger of being outsourced. Only the really expensive surgeons have the risk: specialists and general practitioners can't really be cheaply outsourced.)
​

... images can be sent to India, and read by a doctor there. Anybody who can do their work at home over the internet can be replaced. An MBA can be replaced by someone in India for $400 a month! They need unions and a contract with scope.

BTW. Doctors already have the best union in existence. The AMA. There is a shortage of Doctors BUT no shortage of people who want to go to medical school.... Admissions are being artificially suppressed. We need to do the same thing with ATPs.