Discussion with the V.P @ Skywest. ASA lookout

[Mr. Johnson]

....and that includes ALPA....would you not agree?

...Game, set, and match to JoeMerchant!

 

[Willy21]

....and that includes ALPA....would you not agree?

Kind of like what you did in '98 there Joe? Pot meet Kettle

 

[JoeMerchant]

Kind of like what you did in '98 there Joe? Pot meet Kettle

Specifics Willy21? Would you like some facts with your un-informed opinions?

 

[Speedtape]

The "great work" that was achieved is of no use if your job can be transferred to a fellow "union brother"....Even our fellow "union brothers" at the mainline are starting to undercut us to "recapture" the flying...."Recapture" is the union accepted way of undercutting....If we do it is "undercutting" or "stealing"....If the mainline pilots do it, then it is called "recapturing"...Gotta love semantics....

On July 29, 2009, at 22:09. Please Stamp, "AGREED"




I am interested in what you mean here...I think I know, and that is the only reason I am open to still remaining in ALPA....however that is a heck of a way to run a union...What are you inferring here?

I know you know what I mean. Would you be safe, if you were in the Mob, and you got out? Capisca?



Do you really think the RJDC helped us here? If so, what does that say about a union that you have to sue to protect your own interests?

It says, you had to do what you had to do. There is plenty of case law with lawsuits over due diligence, fiduciary trust issues, and yes, duty of fair representation issues in this Union and all the others. Many times it involves individuals or small groups. However, I guess that in any organization, there is an unseen power group that really wields the power. Do you think the President of the United States makes policy?

By the way, Power Corrupts!

 

[Speedtape]

Why are we grieving it then?

It's just my humble opinion, as stated. I could not answer that question on merit or the unknown intent.

However, from reading the contract, I am not sure there is harm in regard to what is specifically allowed or disallowed, and what is silent(management's rights.)

What say you?

Just as a "straw dog" has no real bite, does the indication of a red arrow day inflict any harm? It's simply a status indicator. It, in itself, simply provides useful information and to some degree, should control expectation, and project some degree of predictability to a swapper. Quite simply, there is no foul, so there should be no harm. Again, IMHO.

Furthermore, although there is some semblance of a reserve staffing formula for the month in total numbers, the contract is silent on any specific prescription for daily reserve staffing. Therefore, as you know, it is management's rights. In addition, it was clearly stated in the crew lounge by one of our leadership team, that the Company would never staff reserves for swapping. No airline does it, nor does our contract prescribe it.

 

[Speedtape]

....and that includes ALPA....would you not agree?

Did I not say "Most?" When a predator is trying to catch it's prey, does it not use "allurements?" It's all part of that "Natural Selection" and "only the strong and smart survive" stuff! Marketing is simply a manifestation and imitation of many things that occur in Nature. (The Science of Allurement)

When you were trying to catch your girl, did you not put on and strut your best stuff? (It's okay, it's rhetorical, so you are safe!) :laugh:

 

[Nevets]

The first step is admitting you have a problem...that is progress...What are some of the bad decisions and leadership that you have seen?



Now it's getting deep in here....I'm supposed to actually believe that I owe it to ALPA that I am more likely to make it home after each trip? Now you are reaching....Spare me.....

I was never one to say that ALPA was NOT and is NOT perfect. More reason to get involved. In my time, the biggest mistake is supporting MPL.

And yes, ALPA has helped you make it home every night. Sure you owe it to make ALPA better/safer for those after us just as those before us made it better/safer for us. I'm not saying ALPA is the only reason for the safety of the industry but you cannot argue that ALPA has had a major rule in most if not all landmark safety enhancements.

 

[Willy21]

I am just glad we got your money back, that includes those of us who didn't pay for our training. How much was that worth?

It is fun to call out other people facades, but we don't like it when others call out ours?

 

[Speedtape]

I was never one to say that ALPA was NOT and is NOT perfect. More reason to get involved. In my time, the biggest mistake is supporting MPL.

And yes, ALPA has helped you make it home every night. Sure you owe it to make ALPA better/safer for those after us just as those before us made it better/safer for us. I'm not saying ALPA is the only reason for the safety of the industry but you cannot argue that ALPA has had a major rule in most if not all landmark safety enhancements.

Nevjets,

You have to wonder what world some of these folks live in? If everything had to be PERFECT, in this world, before we could breathe, work, live, and love, we would all be standing around like a bunch of slugs, waiting for the PERFECT opportunity, letting the best of life pass us by, before we would dare get up to the home plate of life to bat. If you don't get up to the plate to bat, you can't get a hit. By the law of averages, even the best batter in the majors only gets a hit less than 30% of the time. That's not even 1/3.

I want to live, not breathe and waste precious air, criticizing and standing back not even playing in the game--I guess why those folks are usually called Arm Chair Quarterbacks--it's safer but with no real rewards.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

You have some of your facts wrong.

October will not determine anything. At least, not this October.

Just wait. I am not talking about the DCI contract in its pure form. There are some options coming up here and from those options will come decisions. SKW more than ASA, but we know how that goes.
I am sure that SKW will not balk at taking your flying. I am sure ASA will not sue SKW or DAL because said ratios might not be exactly correct.
It is a mad, mad world....

 

[JoeMerchant]

I know you know what I mean. Would you be safe, if you were in the Mob, and you got out? Capisca?

So you are comparing ALPA to the mob?

It says, you had to do what you had to do. There is plenty of case law with lawsuits over due diligence, fiduciary trust issues, and yes, duty of fair representation issues in this Union and all the others. Many times it involves individuals or small groups. However, I guess that in any organization, there is an unseen power group that really wields the power. Do you think the President of the United States makes policy?

By the way, Power Corrupts!

I and others did what we had to do, and it cost us....I and others spent a lot of money and only got about 30 cents on the dollar back in the settlement....I understand what you are saying, but I will never again support ALPA because of this....I shouldn't have to spend a lot of money suing my own union.....

As far as your President analogy...this one does.........

 

[JoeMerchant]

It's just my humble opinion, as stated. I could not answer that question on merit or the unknown intent.

However, from reading the contract, I am not sure there is harm in regard to what is specifically allowed or disallowed, and what is silent(management's rights.)

What say you?

Just as a "straw dog" has no real bite, does the indication of a red arrow day inflict any harm? It's simply a status indicator. It, in itself, simply provides useful information and to some degree, should control expectation, and project some degree of predictability to a swapper. Quite simply, there is no foul, so there should be no harm. Again, IMHO.

Furthermore, although there is some semblance of a reserve staffing formula for the month in total numbers, the contract is silent on any specific prescription for daily reserve staffing. Therefore, as you know, it is management's rights. In addition, it was clearly stated in the crew lounge by one of our leadership team, that the Company would never staff reserves for swapping. No airline does it, nor does our contract prescribe it.

I agree with you on this....You can't grieve something because you think you are getting screwed...There has to be a contractual violation....There isn't one...So why is ALPA grieving this? Is it to appease the "hardliners"?

 

[JoeMerchant]

I am just glad we got your money back, that includes those of us who didn't pay for our training. How much was that worth?

It is fun to call out other people facades, but we don't like it when others call out ours?

The facts on the PFT reimbursement are that it was already in the first TA that got shot down...before I got involved....We only added to the reimbursement that was already in the first TA.....Which is one of the things the pilots said was important...But don't let the facts get in the way of your personal attacks....

 

[Willy21]

Joe when are you going to get it that you were and you still are ALPA? You choose to look at other people and tell them they put up a facade and you did/do the same thing. So what now? Get ride of ALPA? That will show them. Jerry will have you and the rest of ASA bent over a barrel so fast you won't know what happened.

You try to promote your agenda over and over again. It gets shot down over and over again. Most people would see what didn't work and try to change the approach. You sing the same song over and over again. Everybody is out to get you. Guess what? It is not what you say, it is how you say it. From my time at ASA and listening to you on this website, there seems to be some good ideas covered up by a cloud you keep hanging over your head. Push the cloud away and see that as much as you hate ALPA you are ALPA. Every pilot at ASA is ALPA.

From the outside looking in this is what I see. 1) You, meaning all of ASA, are sub-contractors to a sub-contractor. You work at the mercy of Skywest and uncle Jerry under a contract that is enforced by your MEC. It is what it is and nothing will change that short of the sale of ASA to somebody else. I doubt that will happen any time soon. 2) We are in the worst economic times since the early 80's or the 30's depending on who you listen to. It isn't just 50 seat rjs that are getting parked, it is any airplane you can name from basic trainers to the 777. Corporate, fractional, part 91, 135, cargo and airline. Right now is a good time to hang onto your seat and hope when this passes the company you work for is still around. {I say the same about the company I am at as well.} Rocking the boat in the middle of the storm is not what I would be doing. This is the time to set your product apart from everybody else. As Warren Buffett says, be conservative in good times and be greedy in the down times. 3) You are outnumbered by the pilots on the other side of the fence. The Skywest pilots not being unionized is the reason ASA is getting hosed. As long as they are willing to live in Jerry's world and not look at what could happen to them they will always be the better choice in the eyes of SGU for additional lift. They will need to get hosed by SGU before they see the light. {For you OO guys I don't wish this on you, but get real. Someday it will happen.}

So what to do? The pilots at ASA need to come together for the common good. ALPA is good or ALPA sucks doesn't matter. It is what you have right now and everybody from the most senior captian to the bottom reserve f/o needs to understand that. There are many bright individuals, including you and everybody else that dislikes or chooses to not participate in ALPA, that can come up with many ways to show SGU that ASA is the best product in the portfolio. It is a money maker that is entrenched in the largest hub of the world's largest airline. It can be done. When that is done and the economy turns around things will start to look better at ASA. Maybe Jerry will even see the benefit of a unionized work group. (If you want an example look at what the NetJets guys did in '05. They went from the most hated unionized work force in managements eyes to the CEO stating he didn't know how the company would run without a Strong Union. They also turned that job into a place that many will spend a career at from nothing more than a stone on the path to a better flying job. The pilots at NetJets fight like none other behind closed doors but when they come out into public they look as one unit.) That is what you want isn't it? You have time in at ASA that makes a job change look like a bad idea to you right?

While ALPA is not perfect I don't think anybody would stand up and say they have all of the answers. It is a team effort. The fight over ALPA went on the entire time I was there and seems to still be in full force. It takes an entire pilot group engaged to make sure there is not a flase "facade." Without everybody involved ALPA is nothing more than another layer of management. It comes down to people like you, the everyday line pilot, coming together to see that ASA is either a place that has a future with Skywest INC and Delta or an airline that is being pushed out. There are to many good people at ASA to let that happen. I consider myself lucky to have flown with many of them.

Best of luck.

Matt Williams

 

[Genital Leech]

Why am I not surprised that this turned into another ALPA bashing?