Disband the AF

[GCD]

http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,154578,00.html?ESRC=dod.nl

Interesting read.

 

[dtfl]

http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,154578,00.html?ESRC=dod.nl

Interesting read.

Ridiculous. If that were to happen - we would be back to the old days of overlapping capabilities (which means more needless $ spent) and pissing contests about which service is supported with regards to airpower - the service parochialisms and rivalries would take us two steps back.

 

[McGillicutty]

Did DaveGriffin write this article?

 

[Deuce130]

http://warisboring.com/?page_id=2

Just another hack trying to meet the weekly deadline. More interested in making arguments sound good in writing than in portraying facts. The AF will disband the same day the Navy and the IRS will. I wouldn't waste any more time talking about it.

 

[DaveGriffin]

Did DaveGriffin write this article?

Finally, the leading DOD Think Tank is getting serious about the future direction of the US Armed Services and has released some of our early critical recommendations to a defense industry reporter.

The biggest downside of disbanding the AF will be the loss of the traditional rivalry for the CinC Trophy. After Zoomie school is rebranded Naval Academy West, Naval Aviation Officer Development Program, we will only have a two way battle for the incredibly important and prestigious Commander-in-Chief's Trophy.

 

[GCD]

Here is the article the first one gives reference to.

Both guys seem to swing on the liberal side of politics.

http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=abolish_the_air_force

Personally, I don't think we need to disband the Air Force, but we sure need to have each service in controll of their own intra-theater airlift. The AF stinks at this job.

We need 130 C-27's for the Army!

 

[GCD]

General: Switching JCA to USAF Would Hike Costs

Oct 19, 2007

Michael Fabey/Aerospace Daily & Defense Report

Gen. Richard Cody, Army vice chief of staff, says turning the Joint Cargo Aircraft (JCA) program into a single acquisition and operation platform under the Air Force would mean significant cost increases.

Cody spoke in response to questions from Sen. Carl Levin (D-Mich.), chairman of the Armed Services Committee.

Cody also sent Levin a copy of the Oct. 9 appeal to restore authorization for JCA funding to the Army aircraft procurement account.

"A switch to a single service will necessitate a significant and time-consuming update to all documentation and could possibly result in Nunn-McCurdy implications," Cody said in his mid-October letter.

When Pentagon program cost increases exceed a certain set amount, the services have to notify Congress they have breached so-called Nunn-McCurdy limits.

Levin had asked the Army to explain the need for a joint JCA program.

"Program documentation and activities to date have been based on an Army-led joint process. If this program were to revert to an Air Force only program, the validity of these documents and decisions will come into question," Cody wrote. "Additionally, there are three primary areas of near-term focus that will delay the program if a service switch is made. These three areas are: the acquisition program execution and documentation; the test program; and the training/fielding activity."

The Army is also currently providing 75 percent of the acquisition execution personnel, Cody pointed out. It will take "upwards of a year" for the Air Force to get the necessary staff in place to replace the Army force.

"The documentation is of particular importance with respect to the acquisition approach," Cody wrote. "This documentation ... defines the acquisition program baseline. This baseline is currently defined with the program being an Army-centric activity joint program." Cody also said the testing is now scheduled around Army processes, procedures and resources.

Cody said the key operational differences between Army and Air Force JCA fleets would not be in the airframe, but in how the aircraft would be used.

The Air Force would use the aircraft to supplement C-130s and other overall airlift needs. The Army is responsible for getting materials and service members to the last tactical mile -- where speed, not necessarily efficiency, is of the utmost importance. Many of the JCA missions would be executed with 24 hours notice or less, Cody said.

 

[ExAF]

Waste of bandwidth

I can't believe this is a thread. Complete waste of bandwidth. At least nobody quoted Dave Griffin so I didn't have to read his drivel. I love the ignore function.

 

[JungleJett]

I can't believe this is a thread. Complete waste of bandwidth. At least nobody quoted Dave Griffin so I didn't have to read his drivel. I love the ignore function.

It is a wonderful thing. If I wanted to hear some senseless, weapons grade drivel, I would tune in to a Hillary press conference.

 

[Jafo73]

what I find funny it all this crap is no one ever mentions the loss of lift that would occur if they got rid of the AF

 

[puck_11]

Hmm...Navy fighters can't fly very far from the boat without tankers. Marine fighters can't get overseas without a tanker. As fun as it is to bash the AF, we need em, and this article was retarded.

There's an article in this months Playboy stating that the AF should quit spending all of their money on the fast, cool looking fighters when its old school bombers are dropping 80% of the ordinance. Apparently we don't need the fighters anymore.

 

[dtfl]

Here is the article the first one gives reference to.

Both guys seem to swing on the liberal side of politics.

http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=abolish_the_air_force

Personally, I don't think we need to disband the Air Force, but we sure need to have each service in controll of their own intra-theater airlift. The AF stinks at this job.

We need 130 C-27's for the Army!

The AF stinks at theater airlift? Really? Interesting as the SCHEDULED airlift (vs on-demand) is an ARMY REQUIREMENT!!!!
Tell your Army to decide what they want and when and it will be there.....

 

[GCD]

I know the AF sucks at intra-theater lift. I was there 12 months covering the airlift, so I know first-hand.

We need the C-27J so we can do the job right.

 

[DaveGriffin]

Hmm...Navy fighters can't fly very far from the boat without tankers. Marine fighters can't get overseas without a tanker. As fun as it is to bash the AF, we need em, and this article was retarded.

There's an article in this months Playboy stating that the AF should quit spending all of their money on the fast, cool looking fighters when its old school bombers are dropping 80% of the ordinance. Apparently we don't need the fighters anymore.

There is no choice but to disband the AF due to the extreme manning cutbacks required to be able to pay for their F-22s. After all the F-22s come on line there will be no one left to operate or maintain them.

We can't get rid of the tankers, we need tankers. We will split them up between the Navy, Marines and Army. I know the Navy P-3 guys will be happy to have an airplane to fly since they won't be getting many MMAs.

 

[Deuce130]

Why not disband the USMC as well? Talk about overlapping roles and missions there. I could buy disbanding the AF and the Marine Corps, rolling it all into the Army and calling it a day. Of course, the geniuses at HQ would just mothball everything, buy a bunch of unarmored vehicles and complain about being too bloated to do anything. Army generals can be just as stupid and dorked up as AF ones anyday. They've been in charge of the Iraq war since day one and still haven't figured out how to win it.

 

[GCD]

Without compromising OPSEC, take a guess who does the majority of the intra-theater airlift....it ain't the AF. I know because I've been there and done that, got two t-shirts and hash marks for my sleeve.

I guess there should be an AF. They should keep their bombers, some tankers and missles...and give all of the fighters and some tankers to the Navy and USMC, turn-over the A-10 to the people it should have gone to...US Army (it was designed as a tank buster and it would be really cool to have close air support for the infantry and tanks without going through the BS), and intra-theater airlift to the customers... Army and USMC.

I didn't mention the inter-theater airlift because the majority of that is already contracted out, (it keeps me employed) and coming soon in an airspace near you...contactor air-refueling.

 

[Oh-ryan]

AF sucks at intra-theater airlift. I can't attest to their ability to get heavy equipment in and out of country, but it took almost 2 weeks of waiting on the Space-A list to get me the he11 out of Balad- and that's what it's all about. Me. Me and me.

 

[GCD]

You should have gone to the Sherpa Air Ops. They would have got you you you out.

 

[dtfl]

Without compromising OPSEC, take a guess who does the majority of the intra-theater airlift....it ain't the AF. I know because I've been there and done that, got two t-shirts and hash marks for my sleeve.

I guess there should be an AF. They should keep their bombers, some tankers and missles...and give all of the fighters and some tankers to the Navy and USMC, turn-over the A-10 to the people it should have gone to...US Army (it was designed as a tank buster and it would be really cool to have close air support for the infantry and tanks without going through the BS), and intra-theater airlift to the customers... Army and USMC.

I didn't mention the inter-theater airlift because the majority of that is already contracted out, (it keeps me employed) and coming soon in an airspace near you...contactor air-refueling.

Who DOES the majority of intra-theater airlift then...let me guess you are going to say UH1d and 60s...ok...if you want to count airlift from FOB to the FLOT 2 miles away..ok.
AND Id be willing to bet my new car there is more mil airlift (INTER-theater) than commercial...shall we call TACC and ask? No...because Im right. You see a very small part of it.

 

[dtfl]

I know the AF sucks at intra-theater lift. I was there 12 months covering the airlift, so I know first-hand.

We need the C-27J so we can do the job right.

AGAIN...the scheduled airlift is an ARMY requirement - so look yourself in the face.
If you are going to complain, tell us HOW the AF sucks, and how it can be repaired? Let me guess - the scheduled airlift is extremely in-efficient. You are right. Stop asking for it then!!!
Asking for the Army to get fixed wing aircraft to "fix" this problem isn't going to make it better. Why? because then the damn ARMY will request scheduled airlift with C27s just like they do with the AF C130s. I dunno what Army you are in, but the one I provided CAS to (first job) then airlift to is not an Army of rocket scientists when it comes to scheduling anything. The AF has slcik 130s flying around empty - because the DIRMOBFOR says so...because the theater CC says so..because the supported force...ie..Army...wants scheduled airlift.

 

[millhouse21]

You should have gone to the Sherpa Air Ops. They would have got you you you out.

When I was trying to get out out of Balad the Sherpas were weight limited every flight. No space-A pax got on.

 

[DaveGriffin]

I dunno what Army you are in, but the one I provided CAS to (first job) then airlift to is not an Army of rocket scientists when it comes to scheduling anything. The AF has slcik 130s flying around empty - because the DIRMOBFOR says so...because the theater CC says so..because the supported force...ie..Army...wants scheduled airlift.

The new COIN doctrine developed and executed by the Army & Marines, which intentionally minimizes AF tacair participation, has been remarkably successful. Over the past 2 months there has been little work for the F-16 guys and they are getting pissy.

The recent availability of gps guided artillery and rockets has allowed the grunts to take more responsibility for their own needs, rather than having to deal with AF bs and time delays when calling in support.

You can call the grunts dumb, but they are doing a great job, operating more independently and executing a strategy that is seeing the results we need, thank you very much. Now that we have the AF back operating as as support service, as they should have always been, we will achieve success faster.

 

[GCD]

dtlf,

That goes to show how up-to-date you aren't.

We haven't had UH-1D's since 1970's...the 60's are not considered in the intra-theater airlift. That's a different category. I'm talking fixed wing aircraft intra-theater airlift.

millhouse21,

Sorry, when I was there we put everyone on we possibly could. The weight limitation is exactly why we need the C-27J to do the job right.

 

[millhouse21]

GCD,

No worries. It was nice to have that option (sort of) available. Thanks!

 

[GCD]

dtfl,

Sorry, but you are incorrect again.

The Army would like scheduled airlift, yes...but the AF makes it impossible to put anything on those airplanes because of a 24 hour request requirement. That's why there are empty C-130's flying around.

Here is a lesson in tactics...The Army and USMC is very much reactionary in decision making because of changing battle conditions, therefore, a field commander may need something RIGHT NOW! However, the inflexible AF says...no, we need 24 hour notification to put anything on our airplanes.

Don't tell us this is BS, because it is absolutely the truth. In fact, the AF BS cut its own nuts when I was there.

One example: An AF C-130 was AOG. Another C-130 was going from point A to point B (OPSEC consideration), where the AOG C-130 was (and the C-130 going was practically empty). Maintenance folks asked the C-130 Aircrat Commander if they could put AOG parts on his 130 to take to point B...AC says heck yes...The AF dispatcher...whatever he is called in the AF...refused to let them carry the AOG parts because there was not a 24 hour notification for the parts. True story from the mouth of the C-130 AC to my personal ears when we were hanging around at point B.

So, that is why there are so many Army "no shows." The stuff that has to go NOW, goes by Army C-23 because we don't need no stinking 24 hour notice.

And I am sorry for the Space A folks. We try to take you, but when a feild commander (Army, Navy, USMC or even AF) says he needs something, or there is a need for blood, we get it there. That's the Army way. That why the Army needs the C-27J.

Oh, one more thing, I think I understand the big picture of inter-theater transport, as well.

I have made three round trips down range and back from another point, and a C-5 sitting in the same parking space it was in when we started on day one. Let me see...it takes five days to do three down-range and back trips. Tell me how efficient that C-5 was.

Now, I am so sorry that you think I insulted your AF, and that you think Army Officers are of less inteligence than AF Officers. BUT, THAT thinking is the same thinking that makes the AF the worst enemy in theater, over the insurgents. The AF is totally uncooperative, the most self indulgent and most self promoting service in modern militaries...oh, except how the Luftwaffe was with Ghoering, and see where that got them. Just a little cooperation between the AF and the rest of the services would go a long-long way, and the AF wouldn't be so despised by the other services. The Curt LeMay Air Force or no force thinking is gone...over. Olive branch extended for cooperation...Out here for now.

 

[ExAF]

GCD...What a ****************************** bag.
Oh well...censored. It rhymes with woosh.

 

[Hobit]

GCD...What a ****************************** bag.
Oh well...censored. It rhymes with woosh.

And you were in theater when?...

Thought so.

STFU until you can talk with experience NANCY

 

[Pistlpetet]

The new COIN doctrine developed and executed by the Army & Marines, which intentionally minimizes AF tacair participation, has been remarkably successful. Over the past 2 months there has been little work for the F-16 guys and they are getting pissy.

The recent availability of gps guided artillery and rockets has allowed the grunts to take more responsibility for their own needs, rather than having to deal with AF bs and time delays when calling in support.

You can call the grunts dumb, but they are doing a great job, operating more independently and executing a strategy that is seeing the results we need, thank you very much. Now that we have the AF back operating as as support service, as they should have always been, we will achieve success faster.

Change your Quote to "Registered FAKE"

 

[Deuce130]

And you were in theater when?...

Thought so.

STFU until you can talk with experience NANCY

I was there. It's obvious to me that GCD has a bigger axe to grind than just inter or intra theater airlift, which isn't perfect but is still pretty good. If he wants, he can also rant about the miserable state of the war, the continued success of the insurgents, or the the combined inability to prevent IEDs/VBIEDs from killing our troops. THOSE failures seem to be a bigger issue than someone not being able to Space A home (who the he!! goes over there without a way home, btw?). He sprinkles his arguments with lots of snide remarks and other anti-AF BS, which dilutes his points. Seems he's really just pissed off at AF types in general.

 

[ExAF]

And you were in theater when?...

Thought so.

STFU until you can talk with experience NANCY

I was there the first time around. Sorry, but my 20 years of flying was up before the second round started and I had to pass the job on to "doosh bags" like you (Mary) and GCD.