Difficult Airports

[Spooky 1]

I never really thought of an airport as being difficult. It it's difficult, why land there in the first place?

Eagle has a wide open approach...not what one would term "difficult."

Aspen...water flows downhill, so do you. There are big rocks in the area, but there's a lot of space between the rocks, and that's where Aspen is. Any place that was home to John Denver can't be dangerous, and Aspen is only dangerous if you make it so.

Telluride...I went in there this summer and watched a Cessna 150 towing sailplanes off that ruway. That should say it all, right there. Difficult? It's a little downhill, but also uphill once you reach the middle. Departing, you have lots of altitude right off the bat, and the gaps in the terrain all go downhill. Good food in town, friendly folks, not at all difficult.

There's a few fields out there a little more challenging than others, but difficult?

Anybody ever land at Sandwash, UT?

No. Where is that airport?

 

[XTW]

Hey Avbug,

That C150 in TEX has a 180hp motor in it. It amazed me too. Was the guy with the fancy motorglider there too? He was helping launch the gliders from the runway and then he and the C150 guy both got in his motorglider and took off to join the group soaring above. Looked like a blast!

X

 

[AlabamaMan!!]

Never been to Sandwash, UT, couldn't find it on airnav or fltplan.com, but I'm sure it is a challenging airport. But it is all in the perspective you are looking at. Someone flying an Agcat (or whatever it is you fly) may view one airport in a whole different light as someone flying a beechjet, etc. How often in your preflight planning do you review climb gradients (assuming you fly a twin,etc.), brake energy limits, escape manuevers. Ever had to circle into ASE at its 2400 ft MDA and 2 miles vis with a 15+ kt tailwind trying to kick your ass into the rocks, while trying to maintain a tight turn radius without overbanking yet keeping enough speed to maintain safe flight? Havent had to circle at TEX, but I hear it is just as bad, maybe worse depending on what you are flying.

I have circled like that once into ASE, and won't do it again because of how unsafe and unnecessary it is to attempt. And I was nieve to do it. What if I had lost an engine while on downwind headed right for the 11,000+ ft mts in front of me? I didnt even think of scenarios like that. Thats what makes these airports difficult. Lots of room near the runway? What about that Gulfstream a few years back? Maybe those guys had that same mentality you have. But its that kind of thinking into places like this that can hurt people really fast.

EGE does have a lot of room. But again, getting out is more of the difficult issue. ASE has a 7.8% (near there) climb gradient requirement, EGE I think is even higher. Odds of blowing one at V1, slim to none. Never happened to me. But every day I fly, I'm sure my number is getting closer to getting called. I have no problem telling anyone these airports are more challenging and require twice the preflight prep as your quick hop to the uber-busy east coast airport. I may have no where near the experience you have, but I have learned that there is no place for ego's in this game, especially flying into "Special-Use" airports. I think thats the FAA's term for these places.

Fly safe.

 

[Beatrix Kiddo]

For sure Alabama...Landing at any of those airports on a nice day with little or no wind is one thing but having weather, missing or going around, and getting out once youve gotten in is another...Even on a nice day loss of an engine right after V1 is gonna be pretty sporty. And try any of them at the end of a 14 hour day even in good weather...not really my idea of fun. :nuts:


wiggle your big toe...

 

[81Horse]

ASE has always been good sport. Back in the day, there was no approach for general aviation (just the MLS); you had to file to an intersection high above the valley, and just, you know ... visualize your way down. IIRC, the intersection was called JERRO; maybe it's still there -- just like the gray hairs it gave me.

 

[avbug]

Someone flying an Agcat (or whatever it is you fly) may view one airport in a whole different light as someone flying a beechjet, etc.

That’s true. However, the person flying the ag cat will view that airport in a whole different light when flying the beechjet too. The skills and experience gained in the agcat is transferable and applicable to the beechjet, though it doesn’t work the other way around

How often in your preflight planning do you review climb gradients (assuming you fly a twin,etc.), brake energy limits, escape manuevers.

Every day. Every day.

Ever had to circle into ASE at its 2400 ft MDA and 2 miles vis with a 15+ kt tailwind trying to kick your ass into the rocks, while trying to maintain a tight turn radius without overbanking yet keeping enough speed to maintain safe flight?

Yes, at night, in a Learjet. Without overbanking, and with adequate airspeed and terrain clearance. Today, there’s no night landings at Aspen. You may find yourself under arrest if you try. And one really need not be circling there…my concern for circling isn’t terrain, but noise.

Havent had to circle at TEX, but I hear it is just as bad, maybe worse depending on what you are flying.

I don’t circle at TEX, but it’s not really a “bad” airport. Poor carpenters blame their tools, you know.

What if I had lost an engine while on downwind headed right for the 11,000+ ft mts in front of me?

Well, that depends. If you planned the flight as a professional, you would take into account that possibility, and manage your approach and circle accordingly. You should do this on every approach; it’s a basic skill. You’re not going to outclimb those hills; only an idiot tries to outclimb terrain. But outmaneuvering it; that’s another matter. Keeping yourself in position to execute a safe landing even with the loss of a powerplant is part of executing the approach with good judgement, professionally.

I didnt even think of scenarios like that.

Apparently. But you should, regardless of the type of runway or approach.

Thats what makes these airports difficult. Lots of room near the runway? What about that Gulfstream a few years back? Maybe those guys had that same mentality you have. But its that kind of thinking into places like this that can hurt people really fast.

Really? What kind of mentality do I have? We went missed at Aspen three hours before the Gulfstream crash…and went into Eagle, instead.

ASE has a 7.8% (near there) climb gradient requirement, EGE I think is even higher. Odds of blowing one at V1, slim to none.

If you really believe that, then why are you flying there? Only an idiot would make the flight believing there’s no chance of recovery in the event of a problem…but what does that make the idiot if he keeps going back and doing it again and again? That’s insane.

Water flows downhill, and so do you. In a Part 25 airplane, climb gradient performance is part of the demonstrated certification guarantee, but even in an airplane that can’t maintain altitude or climb well, If you know where lowering terrain is, you’re going to survive. You may not climb out, but you’re not going to die or stack up the airplane. If you can get to wider terrain and make it back for a landing or get somewhere else you can land, you’re in good shape. Fatalism isn’t professional, nor healthy.

Never happened to me. But every day I fly, I'm sure my number is getting closer to getting called.

Yet you continue to fly in there, believing that it’s only a matter of time before you “get called.” That, sir, is insanity. Yet you have the pugnacious ironic gall to suggest I have a bad “mentality.” Check yourself before it really does hurt you or as you put it, “call” you.

I have no problem telling anyone these airports are more challenging and require twice the preflight prep as your quick hop to the uber-busy east coast airport.

And apparently no problem continuing to fly in there, either.

I may have no where near the experience you have, but I have learned that there is no place for ego's in this game, especially flying into "Special-Use" airports.

Ego? What part of properly planning is ego? If you find these airports difficult, it’s a pilot issue, not an airport issue. The airport is not difficult until the pilot considers it so, or makes it so. That only occurs with the introduction of the pilot. A problem is a hazard until a pilot puts it in play, and then it becomes a risk. You appear to believe in taking risks. Perhaps justifying it by calling it a “calculated” risk…who knows? Who cares? You believe it’s a risk and you continue to take it. The airport isn’t dangerous, nor is the approach; it’s you. Think about it, very seriously, before you undertake going there again.

The most basic standard for any level of pilot certification is that in any maneuver or procedure, the outcome must never be in doubt. If you believe it’s only a matter of time until you “get called,” clearly the outcome at some point is in doubt, and that’s an issue you must address.

Sandwash is a narrow dirt airstrip atop a mesa. It’s just as wide as the landing gear on a Cessna 207, and it is shear along the sides and at each end. Looks like a long wishbone. It slopes so that naturally the airplane wants to pull off the runway and go over the edge. It’s usually got a crosswind, windshear, and rotors. It’s just wide enough at the ends to turn around, and big enough for one airplane, perhaps a couple at one end. It’s not a difficult airport; but it’s as difficult as you wish to make it.

The difficulty lies in the pilot, not the field. It’s not a matter of extraordinary experience or insight, or ego. It’s a matter of planning, acting with good judgement, and being professional. If one truly believes that these places are of such difficulty that one will eventually die by flying into them, then the utter foolishness and insanity of continuing to do so ought to invalidate any medical certificate and at a minimum give serious pause to reconsider one’s actions.

 

[pilotpat]

Aspen, Eagle, Telluride. But the single most dangerous airport I ever flew into was St. Augustine FL. before they put in the tower...Dunno if its better now but back then it was a deathtrap...


wiggle your big toe...

Went to St. Augustine a about 7 months ago...having a tower doesn't do squat!! There were so many planes buzzing around that I was afraid on a 10 mile final...not to mention the Baron that had no idea where he was going on the taxiway once we finally got on the ground! Thanks for making me ball up before bedtime....:bawling: LOL

 

[AlabamaMan!!]

Thank you Avbug, or shall I say "Your ass-worthiness".

I once thought you had valuable insight and ideas....now I think your time in flying has come and gone, more gone than come.

My "number" being called is losing an engine, not succumbing to ASE. Dont know how you do it, or did it, but I plan every takeoff as if will be on one engine. If both keep on spinning up to a safe altitude...it was more successful than anticipated.

For us mortal aviators not blessed with "Messiah-like" (maybe should read 'Avbug-like') aviator skills, we need to keep ourselves honest and viewing these airports as "Special-Use" or "requires some attention" is all we were given. It keeps us on our toes and makes sure that we give these places the respect they demand and deserve. I am not afraid to go into these airports given certain conditions, but I have set personal minimums for all and give each the respect it demands.

I have met very few professional aviators with the arrogance you have displayed in your last two posts in this thread. A true professional learns from mistakes. A true professional "aviator" learns from mistakes that have killed others and from those mistakes they themselves have made and have lived to tell about. I never claimed to be Bob Hoover or the Red Baron. I have relied on the experience of those who have been and done before me to help make my experience a safer one.

As for the circling into ASE or TEX, like I said, I did it once and then made a personal policy not to do it ever again. I LEARNED. I believe that is what a good pilot does. But since you've seen it all, or at least come to flightinfo and profess to the masses as if you have, I guess you havent learned anything in quite some time. Thats too bad.

As for your reasoning behind not circling to "abate noise", I am sure the wealthy and social elite of Aspen are very much appreciative of your thoughtfulness. I, on the otherhand, think that is one truly ass-anine reason.

Good luck, god bless, feel free to question my courage and professionalism anytime. Besides, I am sure there are quite a bit more people who feel like I do about these mountain airports.

On a side note, for someone who has flown "all of em", as your profile says, you sure do spend quite a bit of your time on this website instead of airborne.

Fly safe.


Oh, just one question......you mentioned that there are no landings allowed at night at ASE? Heck, one might get arrested. Why would they have such a silly restriction on such an airport? Surely it can be done, with ease I should add, hell.........John Denver lived there.

Fire away oh great one.

 

[pilotpat]

Actually...there is a LOC approach that is approved for night landing into ASE, however it is not published in normal Jepps since you have to receive special training/approval for it. It is one of the most ridiculous approaches I've ever seen - since the guy in the right seat is spinning dials and making callouts the whole way down to like 900' or something like that...don't even ask about the missed - climb straight ahead and then start right turn to stay inside 13 DME arc of DBL to intercept the other LOC outbound....One never needs to make it into ASE - sorry, just my .02

 

[minitour]

Actually...there is a LOC approach that is approved for night landing into ASE, however it is not published in normal Jepps since you have to receive special training/approval for it.

So even though the airport is closed by NOTAM there is a special LOC approach (other than the LOC DME-E...which is not authorized at night) into the airport specially for night for special crews who aparently are special enough that they can land at a closed airport?

-mini

 

[avbug]

The Localizer approach to ASE, which is relatively new, shows the proceedure being not authorized at night. Considering the airport is closed...how does one obtain a special dispensation to execute night approaches there? Is that a special authorization for medical or emergency crews?

Alabamaman, sure sucks to get hung with your own words, doesn't it? That's an awful lot of backpeddling you did there. Hope you didn't tire yourself out too badly. Carpel tunnel?

 

[pilotpat]

So even though the airport is closed by NOTAM there is a special LOC approach (other than the LOC DME-E...which is not authorized at night) into the airport specially for night for special crews who aparently are special enough that they can land at a closed airport?

-mini

Yes...that's correct.


But really, try not to come off with an attitude about it. There is nothing special about the crew themselves, simply that they have specific training (we get ours at FlightSafety), and the local POI rides with them on the approach to verify they do the procedure correctly. And YES - you CAN do it at night....I've done it.

 

[pilotpat]

The Localizer approach to ASE, which is relatively new, shows the proceedure being not authorized at night. Considering the airport is closed...how does one obtain a special dispensation to execute night approaches there? Is that a special authorization for medical or emergency crews?

Not for medical/emergency - and to be 100% honest with you, I'm not the chief pilot, so I don't know how you go about getting the authorization. Since I'm not based there, I don't know all of the ins and outs, but I'll look into it and let you know.

 

[Lead Sled]

So even though the airport is closed by NOTAM there is a special LOC approach (other than the LOC DME-E...which is not authorized at night) into the airport specially for night for special crews who aparently are special enough that they can land at a closed airport?

Mini...
That's the beauty of it. Think about it, no other traffic so no slot required and everyone at Base Ops has gone home so you can park where YOU want. Why didn't we think of this before? :0

'Sled

 

[pilotpat]

Well, since I'm on the road and cannot contact anyone in the office on the weekend, I tried to look up some information for you guys. Here is a link and I will cut/paste the paragraph. If you go to the link, just look down at the bottom of the page for it. As you can see it specifically states they have allowed 22 (at the time of publication) operators...by no means "special" or any other demeaning terms...just authorized, to conduct the IAP. Get over yourselves - I still have to get a slot time & parking still sucks.

http://www.nw.faa.gov/congressdoc_files/newsletter/2002/newsltr_12-02.htm

Aspen Airport Special Instrument Approach Procedure. The I-ASE special instrument approach procedure for the Runway 15 localizer(LOC)/distance measuring equipment (DME) was made available for use by 22 operators on November 22, 2002. The procedure was initiated and funded by the Aspen Airport Authority and developed by the Airspace System Analysis Corporation in cooperation with Jeppesen. This culminates a seven-month cooperative effort involving the Northwest Mountain Region Flight Standards, Airway Facilities, Air Traffic, and Airports Divisions; Aviation Systems Standards; and the flight procedures services in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, and Washington, D.C. The special procedure provides minimums of 8,780 feet mean sea level (MSL), which are significantly lower than those associated with the other approach procedures to Runway 15. This will result in a more precise approach at a lower altitude, increasing the potential service volume to the area.

 

[minitour]

But really, try not to come off with an attitude about it.

*reading the link you just posted so reserving my comments for later*

*edit* it's later...
So I read what you posted, then I Checked out aspenairport.com which seems to be the airport's "official" site. According to the airport itself, (http://www.aspenairport.com/index.asp?topmenu=geninfo) "[SIZE=-1]The airport is closed to all traffic between 11:00 pm to 7:00 am."[/SIZE][SIZE=-1] The only thing that makes sense, is that the link you posted was prior to the LOC approach being published for general use. I think I added it to the binder in August of this year (they're downstairs and I'm too lazy to look), so is it possible that the LOC used to be available for only approved operators?

Still don't see how you can go in/out of the airport at night...legally.
[/SIZE]
-mini

 

[pilotpat]

Okay...I think I see a pattern now...you're talking about the curfew & I thought you were saying night ops were prohibited. While I understand the airport closes at 11pm, but there's a whole lot of night going on 'til then (especially in winter).
And again, as for the I-ASE approach, it is not in the published Jepps. I believe you have to order it from Jepp after you've gotten the training and sign off from the local FSDO.
http://www.flightsafety.com/news/328.htm
We do our training in Wichita's FSI on the BE-400A Collins 5000 FMS. It is still only available to approved operators, which is why every 6 months we do recurrent if we haven't shot the approach lately.

 

[avbug]

Pilotpat, perhaps you just need to update your charts. My jepps contain the localizer approach, and I don't have any local FSDO signoffs...never heard of such a thing.

The approach proceedure specifically states that it's not authorized at night. Not that it stops being authorized when the airport closes...just that it's not authorized at night. The VOR proceedure has the same limitation...these limitations were published following the Gulfstream accident, as formerly we did go in there at night.

The NACO/NOS charts contain this same limitation, and the proceedure is published, without any need for a "local signoff."

 

[501261]

Pilotpat, perhaps you just need to update your charts. My jepps contain the localizer approach, and I don't have any local FSDO signoffs...never heard of such a thing.

You're wrong (again)! There are 2 LOC approaches into ASE. There is the "published" LOC-E(relatively new), and a second unpublished Localizer approach, that is only available to qualified operators. Basically it follows the "missed approach" localizer in. It's been in operation since 2002 to "special" operators.

 

[pilotpat]

You're wrong (again)! There are 2 LOC approaches into ASE. There is the "published" LOC-E(relatively new), and a second unpublished Localizer approach, that is only available to qualified operators. Basically it follows the "missed approach" localizer in. It's been in operation since 2002 to "special" operators.

501261 - that's what I've been trying to get people to understand, but they're not getting it!! Ugg.....:smash: :uzi:


avbug - Dude, I respect your posts, but just because YOU have never heard of it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist - it f'n does!!!!!!!