Did FAPA really try to reach an agreement??

[Cornelius]

Dropping a 150 mil claim is a lot better that spending more cash at closing.

 

[SWA/FO]

Why do you think RAH didn't increase their bid

Because they have no money... F9 Pilots just got F9cked by FAPA!

 

[Cornelius]

Well, if WN was truely interested they would have came in with a better plan SWA/FO. Instead they came rolling in thinking everything was gonna go your way. That could have worked if there wasn't another bidder.

That is a good question how much cash RAH can get there hands on.

 

[climb2slow]

Have you F9 guys ever once considered the notion that maybe the reason us SWA guys are taking this the way we are is because we CARE about you guys' well being? Most ALL of us have friends at your organization who we want to see succeed and enjoy the same job security and satisfaction that we enjoy! I could care less about what a staple of F9 pilots would have done for my seniority. I was happy for my friends at Frontier who were going to have the opportunity to come here to SWA and enjoy the same friggin good deal that I have been dealt.

Personally I am posting these smart ass, hateful comments NOT because I am hateful or upset that I am not going to get a good deal from getting you guys stapled to the bottom of our list, but because I am SOOO frustrated that somebody at your organization screwed things up for my VERY good friends at Frontier and now who knows what is going to happen with them.

I can tell you one thing for CERTAIN:
1. Every one of your pilots would have been WAAAAY better off here at SWA!
and
2. Your FAPA PREZ is a MORON!
our seniority list

easy to say since by definition, a staple would not have any effect on your seniority whatsoever!!

 

[vixin]

And if they really wanted it they would have upped their bid. Go figure. I wonder if they wanted it at all.

 

[Fubijaakr]

For the advocates of a National Senority List.... how would a NSL have played out here?

Well, it WOULDN'T have played out like this:

#1 at Frontier is retired Air Force and F9 was his first job. One list hire date 1994.

#1 SWA hire date 1973. One list hire date 1973.

F9 wanted relative seniority. DOH wasn't even good enough.

That is just as unfair as stapling the F9 guys was. An NSL/Allegheny/Mohawk/Bond/McCaskill SLI would have gone more like this:

1. No bump/no flush
2. All pre-1994 SWA guys maintain their postion.
3. The remaining pilots are ratioed together based on the number remaining, i.e. one F9 guy for every X (X = the ratio of SWA pilots remaining) SWA guy.
4. All future openings awarded by new Seniority list.

Since both were narrowbody carriers, there are NO "career expectations" issues.

The issue, as I see it, was the SWA guys wanted the F9 guys to voluntarily abrogate their legal rights under Bond/McCaskill because "ITS SOUTHWEST AIRLINES OFFERING YOU A JOB" and gave them a fait accompli offer.

Now, you might argue that the F9 guys screwed the pooch, but its obvious that the SWA guys were going to get the best of this deal whatever way it went.

 

[StopNTSing]

I honestly have never witnessed a louder, more intense wave of disinformation in my life.

Here are the facts of the matter.

SWAPA provided FAPA with their first proposal Wednesday evening around 1930, and stipulated a 2130 drop dead time limit. FAPA was late to the "meeting", due to the fact that SWA was late to the UCC meeting in NYC and FAPA couldn't possibly discuss SLI without listening to SWA's entire presentation to the UCC.

It is worth noting that this proposal was a complete contradiction to the terms described as agreeable to SWAPA during a morning phone call by the SWAPA president.

FAPA was ready, willing and able to work throughout the night to achieve a fair and equitable agreement. Unfortunately, the SWAPA position to several negotiable points was "there simply isn't time to discuss that issue".

There were three SWAPA imposed deadlines. The first was 2130. The second was 2200. The last was 2400.

At approximately 2330, SWAPA decided to end the negotiations even though six out of 10 items had been agreed upon during a 110 minute period. SWAPA declared an impasse, not FAPA.

SWAPA stated that they would request an extension and that everyone should meet in DAL in the morning to solve the remaining open items.

FAPA mobilized and prepared for what appeared to be a weekend full of negotiations.

FAPA's M&A committee was not contacted once on Thursday.

Not once.

SWAPA proposed that at least 20% of F9 pilots would be immediately furloughed. Day one.

They also failed to identify how those 20% would be recalled, or if they would ever be recalled.

FAPA provided one proposal. One.

That proposal was drafted after the initial SWAPA proposal. In kind.

SWAPA's proposal did not protect the denver domicile. Only newly created FO positions.

Do not say that there was domicile protection offered. There was not.

SWAPA's proposal did not protect "all FAPA pilots". There were no recall rights outlined in the SWAPA proposal. In fact, the proposal itself stipulated that any excess pilots would be considered furloughed from F9 with FAPA remaining as their bargaining agent.

Please reread the preceding sentence.

At this point, I could care less about the SWA offer. I remain disappointed that it didn't come to fruition but the double talk, the hypocrisy, is just too much. My only motivation to post this information is the amazing difference between what ACTUALLY happened and what SWAPA has propagated.

The only thing you haven't provided is a credible source for this information. As has already been posted here, SWAPA has published a synopsis of the events leading up to the Thursday deadline. Has FAPA distributed a similar recap to the members and is anyone willing to post it here, 'cause we sure have a great case of "he-said/she-said."

 

[luv2fly]

No, not John. He hates message boards, just ask the rest of the FAPA pilots. I just can't keep my mouth shut when I know when something is being manipulated. Dozens of people know me on this board and they know that I am not Stemmler.

You need to re-read the first post. FAPA was late because SWA was late.

SWAPA did move to five years of "new" growth (actually they said five years and then changed to three years on paper). They also moved from 50% to 75%, of FO's. Define new growth. Is "new growth" after all of the airbuses are replaced, or does new growth occur gradually as each airbus is replaced? Please GMAFB about your domicile protection.

How could "FAPA concede nothing" when FAPA provided ONE PROPOSAL and then SWAPA ended the session?

SWAPA declared an impasse and then suggested that everyone meet in Dallas the next morning. To say that FAPA conceded nothing is a total and blatant inaccuracy. FAPA wasn't afforded the opportunity to negotiate.

Unbelievable how wrong you are. The DEN domicile protection was 3 years at 50% then SWAPA agreed to increase to 75%. That 3 years started after the 2 year fence. There was no mention of anything about growth from SWAPA. FAPA wanted all slots including "new growth".

By the way your leader (John) was late and no it wasn't because of SWA. The court delayed the start of the presentations. FAPA failed to counter SWAPA's final offer and did not engage SWAPA on Thursday.

Your information is way off base!

 

[ivauir]

Every letter, space-bar, and punctuation is true and factual.

No sir.

You post contains several inaccuracies, half truths, and a handful of out right lies.

Here are some FACTS for you:

- FAPA was 2.5 hours late because your pres doesn't know how to prioritize or delegate
- 6/10 items were resolved because SWAPA gave up ground
- FAPA did not yield on any item
- FAPA did not return phone calls or emails on Thursday

I hope your integration with RAH goes well. Good luck.

 

[USMC319]

Here are some FACTS for you:

- FAPA was 2.5 hours late because your pres doesn't know how to prioritize or delegate
- 6/10 items were resolved because SWAPA gave up ground
- FAPA did not yield on any item
- FAPA did not return phone calls or emails on Thursday
QUOTE]

Wow. This is very interesting. What FAPA is telling us is that SWAPA refused to return phone calls and continually put the negotiations off. They said that SWAPA refused to extend the deadline. SWAPA called an impasse before Thursday. They said that SWAPA would not move off the position of a straight staple. This is all contrary to what SWAPA is telling its group. The only thing that jives between the union comuniques is that FAPA was late to the initial meeting because they were busy hearing the SWA and RAH offers being presented to the Board.

I can say that with the exception of a few juniors, a staple was a non-starter for the F9 pilots, but an integration down the SWA FO list with pay and domicile protections would have probably got the deal done (my opinion). I personally would have been honored to be part of this group if it were done in a fair manner, but a staple was a slap in the face. I guess it is what it is. Both F9 and WN have a great group of pilots (with a few exceptions) so in that light lets all move on and not throw mud at each other.