Did FAPA really try to reach an agreement??

[FlyinPiker]

I have a couple of friends there to and have been scared to call them during all of this.

Yes Southwest is what I would have wanted for them, but they didn't have a choice.

That's what is ticking me off about all of these negative posts.

There are numerous threads asking to hear from ticked off F9 pilots...what does that acutally do for them? Make WN guys feel better?

There is no doubt the deal you were giving them was superior (that's an understatement), but I don't understand what else you want from these guys.

Sure there are a couple of F9ers trying to beat you guys back with tough words, but I'd imagine the majority are just trying to pick up the pieces and eat what they've been served.

They didn't have a choice...let it lie. Getting them all worked up isn't going to change anything.

 

[En Mort Main]

Southwest lost and they a going nuts, i had no idea the pilot group was so hateful. And the level of arrogance is mind blowing. I hope RAH puts the money needed into F9 so they can show WN the door at DEN.
Since when have all these SWA guys know what RAH plan is. They make these wild ass statements about furloughs and aircraft leases and plans....i guarantee NONE of these SWA guys were at any of the board meetings discussing short or long term plans.
I have great respect for WN one of my favorite carrier to fly....but i am losing respect for that great airline the more i read posts from their employees. I know there are ass hats at every company but the level of angst from losing their bid for F9 is astounding.
GET OVER IT!!!!
Good luck to F9 and RAH...BB has always proven to make money and expand airlines.
SWA good luck at riding yourself of your arrogant problem children, they're making you all look bad.
En Mort Main

 

[The Victors]

Southwest lost and they a going nuts, i had no idea the pilot group was so hateful. And the level of arrogance is mind blowing. I hope RAH puts the money needed into F9 so they can show WN the door at DEN.
Since when have all these SWA guys know what RAH plan is. They make these wild ass statements about furloughs and aircraft leases and plans....i guarantee NONE of these SWA guys were at any of the board meetings discussing short or long term plans.
I have great respect for WN one of my favorite carrier to fly....but i am losing respect for that great airline the more i read posts from their employees. I know there are ass hats at every company but the level of angst from losing their bid for F9 is astounding.
GET OVER IT!!!!
Good luck to F9 and RAH...BB has always proven to make money and expand airlines.
SWA good luck at riding yourself of your arrogant problem children, they're making you all look bad.
En Mort Main

You have your facts wrong. You should calm down. Go get some milk and a cookie. SWA didn't "lose". RAH ripped up a $150 million IOU. That made the creditors happy. SWA's CEO made a pledge to his employees (name 1 other airline CEO that has ever done that) and the creditors didn't like that pledge.

 

[FDJ2]

It appears SWAPA got punked.

This deal was probably done a month ago...just had to go through the motions.

In the end no one probably had a choice because agreements had been made way before SW entered the scene.

If Southwest wouldn't have tried to be sneaky and do this all at the last minute the results might have been different.

The problem was that SWA apparently was completely unprepared. They hadn't done their homework and judging by their press releases thought that they could by-pass the F9 employees with a cram down hire as needed deal. When they finally figured out that this wasn't a Ch 7 asset sale and that Federal Law does actually apply to SWA they scrambled to try and get SWAPA and FAPA to work it out. I give SWAPA credit for putting in an effort to negotiate, and FAPA credit for not surrendering their rights, but SWA management blew it. If they wanted to buy F9 they should have done significantly more ground work far in advance, offered a JCBA with pay parity on day one, offered an equity stake and had the two pilot groups negotiating far in advance with a commitment to a fair process for seniority integration that would give each side fair treatment with the goal of a fair and equitable seniority list that balances the equities each pilot group brings to the merger before SOC. A couple of days is not nearly enough to resolve seniority issues.

Again, even though both positions seem extreme, good job to both SWAPA and FAPA, they just weren't given a reasonable amount of time to work this out. Good luck to all.

 

[avrodriver]

You have your facts wrong. You should calm down. Go get some milk and a cookie. SWA didn't "lose". RAH ripped up a $150 million IOU. That made the creditors happy. SWA's CEO made a pledge to his employees (name 1 other airline CEO that has ever done that) and the creditors didn't like that pledge.

I believe the DAL/NWA merger didn't go through till seniority ( or at least a set plan/date that it would be worked out one way or another) was figured out either, it's not a about a pledge, it's about smart business.

After the Cactus/Airways mess it's kind of standard practice.

We'll see how Republic handles this whole mess...he might have bit off more than he can chew this time.

 

[FDJ2]

From the sound of things they didn't even want to talk.

I don't think there was enough time to get it done. This all started out as a cram down offer. SWA should have enticed both pilot groups to work together on establishing a fair process to arrive at a fair list. What SWA really wanted was to avoid the AWA/AAA mess, they could have done that, but not by springing this proposed acquisition at the last minute and intitially proceeding as if the F9 pilots and employees had no rights.

 

[The Victors]

I believe the DAL/NWA merger didn't go through till seniority ( or at least a plan of a set arbitration date) was worked out either, it's not a about a pledge, it's about smart business.

After the Cactus/Airways mess it's kind of standard practice.

We'll see how Republic handles this whole mess...he might have bit off more than he can chew this time.

This wasn't a merger. It was a purchase. You must be mgmt. That's why you think making a pledge to your employees is not smart business.

 

[FDJ2]

This wasn't a merger. It was a purchase.

It doesn't matter for the purposes of seniority list integrations. F9 was not in ch7. Technically AWA purchased AAA and DAL purchased NWA, so what. The nature of a business transaction has no place in seniority list integration.

 

[Beetle007]

.....ok maybe that was two things.

I can tell you two things:
1. That was funny

 

[avrodriver]

This wasn't a merger. It was a purchase. You must be mgmt. That's why you think making a pledge to your employees is not smart business.

You don't need to be management to figure out that it is preferable to have your labor groups playing nice together before you spend a bunch of money verse end up with the Cactus/Airways mess.

Your version sounds better though. I think you have a great company. It's profitable it does not sacrifice the happiness of it's employees. Extremely happy for you. I wish my Frontier buddies could have had it as well...but what's done is done.

Hopefully your CEO has enough goodwill to pony up a TA worthy of your "yes" vote. He's definitely gained some popularity points out of this deal...might as well keep it coming right?

Take care bud. Have yourself a couple of coldies and let this go.

 

[The Victors]

Was shocked at first, but let it go long ago. I hope swapa gets a new TA soon also and F9 matches for FAPA.

 

[The Victors]

It doesn't matter for the purposes of seniority list integrations. F9 was not in ch7. Technically AWA purchased AAA and DAL purchased NWA, so what. The nature of a business transaction has no place in seniority list integration.

Tell that to the new Us Airways pilots

 

[DeucesWild]

Maybe SWA / SWAPA should have offered more than a staple???

 

[GuppyWN]

Maybe SWA / SWAPA should have offered more than a staple???

RAH just announced that some of F9's airbus will go to Midwest after they get rid of the 9 remaining 717's.

What does that mean to you?

Gup

 

[terryhfly]

It could mean that F9 pilots might have a new base in MKE. Or we could be $5cked.

 

[avrodriver]

RAH just announced that some of F9's airbus will go to Midwest after they get rid of the 9 remaining 717's.

What does that mean to you?

Gup

It means Bedford would have to do a hell of a lot to start putting different aircraft on different certificates.

I'd put money on Frontier pilots still being the ones in the driver seat.

Either way...labor-wise this is going to be one big Cluster #@$@#$.

Who's flying for who?

 

[GuppyWN]

Man I hope you're right (except for the cluster *************************) but one thing F9ers went to the mat over was the Denver domicile.

Gup

 

[Fly-diver]

Did FAPA really try to reach an agreement??

I'm gonna say no, they really didn't try.

SWAPA media statement:
This is our media statement that was sent at 5pm central.


“We have received notice of the bankruptcy court’s decision to not award Southwest Airlines with the acquisition of Frontier Holdings. It appears, as we suspected, that the lack of an agreement between the two pilots unions on an integration plan caused the court to not deem the Southwest Airlines bid as qualified. However, it should be noted that Frontier also said that Republic’s bid was the “highest and best.” So it wasn’t solely about labor.

First and foremost, we wish the best of luck to the current Frontier Airlines pilots. We felt they would have been a good fit for our culture and operation. The offer that we presented FAPA representatives on Wednesday night addressed three of their four stated needs; allowing pay protections for their pilots which would have given roughly a 40 percent raise for their First Officers, providing domicile protection for their Denver-based pilots, and guaranteeing that all of their 650+ pilots would be placed on our seniority list including their furloughed pilots. While they chose to not entertain placing their seniority list below ours, we felt protecting their pay and home domicile while providing a job security was an extremely fair offer. In the end, the Frontier bankruptcy lawyers allowed only a few hours to negotiate an integration agreement that historically takes months or years to accomplish.

Next, we are thankful to work with a company that in this instance chose to put employee relations ahead of all other priorities. Southwest Airlines chose to include a labor contingency in their bid for Frontier Airlines. That contingency guaranteed no drawn-out labor integration battle that is seen in so many other mergers and acquisitions. They felt that having happy and satisfied employees, on both the SWA and Frontier sides was paramount to a successful deal and a successful airline. We applaud that mindset. SWAPA encourages the Company to maintain that successful labor relations mindset while working with us to swiftly complete negotiations on our 15-year-old contract.”

 

[The Victors]

Maybe SWA / SWAPA should have offered more than a staple???

Wouldn't have mattered. I'm thinking the FAPA president made a personal deal to save himself and didn't care much about anything else.

 

[Indapool]

RAH just announced that some of F9's airbus will go to Midwest after they get rid of the 9 remaining 717's.

What does that mean to you?

Gup

So did the F9 pilots take a stand over DEN only to have some of that taken away from them less than 24 hrs later by RJet?
Serious question.