DHL's MAD WORLD

[Browntothebone]

UPS pilots should realize that DHL's little test tube experiment in Wilmington Ohio is just the beginning...and if the IPA agrees to fly DHL freight they will be next.

DHL may be a customer of UPS's...but DHL will not be able to compete or beat the prices of the competitor it has hired to carry its product. That must be a great sales pitch for UPS sales reps...
If DHL is willing to lose more money & customers per year than it already is losing or lost.....there must be more to it and some kind of advantage to DHL...not UPS.

The UPS pilots are a bunch of good guys....but I'm sure they would fight hard for their jobs if they were faced with the same fate that DHL has delt to its pilots. So... you cant blame DHL guys for pulling everything out of the hat just to keep what they probably don't realize is already a lost cause.

The UPS pilot group will see whoever and whatever foreign & domestic contractor UPS/DHL can think of next on the ramp....mark my words. It will happen slowly and painfully to UPS....Just like it did for the DHL Airways(Astar) and Airborne Express pilots. DHL is no threat unless it infiltrates UPS. Yea....every airline has had an "iron clad" scope clause that has been blown to bits. Scope is just a bunch of words to be manipulated by the airline when it decides the time has come. I have not seen one pilot scope caluse that has ever held water. IPA/UPS's will be no different except it will look less like big brown and more like brown skid marks in underwear when its over.

There will be only short term gains for those suffering the age 65 bulge at UPS....followed by long term pain if they take the Appel from the tree. (pun)
Take an Astar or ABX pilots job and UPS pilots will not get much in return....except contributing to their own errosion. DHL will fail with or without UPS's help so why not make the mismanagement of Deutsche Post & DHL answer for their stupidity?

Tp be honest....I dont know if UPS is screwing DHL or DHL will end up screwing up UPS at this point.

I think the yellow virus is going to crawl up the Big Brown Hole, manifest into a monster and pop out of its chest to lay more eggs.

It should be interesting to see how it all plays out over the next few years. I hope the UPS pilot group is prepared for the pilot professions sake. The only good flying jobs left are UPS or Fed Ex.....but management has the 2 targets left in its cross hairs.

UPS has already told the IPA that for the duration of the transfer of flying to UPS, that they can expect to see all sorts of contractors on UPS ramps and once the transfer is complete then all the flying will revert to UPS. You guys are making way too much out of this. While it sucks for you losing your jobs, the fact is that this is just a change of contractors for DHL from you to us. There is no sinister overtones with this deal as far as the IPA is concerned. There might be some kind of capacity sharing agreement whereby UPS volume that we currently either use airline belly space or common carriage to remote parts of the world that UPS does not fly to themselves could end up on whoever DHL uses to service that part of the world. UPS would never be flying that stuff themselves anyway, so who cares what method UPS uses.

 

[Browntothebone]

And the SCOPE Problems begin...

IPA-UPS Discuss Scope, DHL Deal, Concern over 2 Pairings in 08-05 ANC MD-11 Bid Pack

Scope issues, the proposed DHL deal and the IPA’s concern about two pairings in the ANC MD-11 bid package (08-05) were among the topics discussed at today’s Scope meeting.
The EB tells IPNN Interactive they are in disagreement with the Company over pairing #s 400 and 409 which appear on lines 7 and 8 in the MD-11 ANC Bid Package and involve SJU turns out of SDF on ANC trips.
As you may recall, last summer the Association tracked the SDF-SJU-SDF trip and found that the pairing went over eight hours a considerable amount of time. The EB cautions that the same problem still exists, it has just been moved to ANC on another fleet.
If you are an ANC MD-11 crewmember and are assigned a SJU trip and go over eight block hours, you must have 18-hour FAR rest after that duty period as per the FAR Flag Rules.
As always, if you are scheduled for under eight block hours in a duty period and your flight exceeds eight hours, let the IPA know. Email
Additionally, at the close of today’s Scope meeting, the EB requested a meeting with UPS to come up with a transition plan once the proposed DHL-UPS deal is finalized.

And just what scope problems are your referring to?

 

[Jetglow]

With all due respect...you shoud read your IPA board..looks like you are already adressing SCOPE issues with the DHL situation...might be nothing... The deal has not even been signed yet and you are already seeing some kind of SCOPE issue...

Astar (49% owned by DHL) and was about to go on strike 3 months ago...so I want to pose this question..

We signed a SCOPE clause with DHL that stated we would be the only carrier for DHL freight in North America......they have found a way around that so far.... by turning us into a contractor....

What are you going to do when UPS/DHL makes you a contractor?......

If we had gone on strike...would it have been o.k. for UPS to fly our freight since we are just a contractor?

 

[Browntothebone]

With all due respect...you shoud read your IPA board..looks like you are already adressing SCOPE issues with the DHL situation...might be nothing... The deal has not even been signed yet and you are already seeing some kind of SCOPE issue...

Astar (49% owned by DHL) and was about to go on strike 3 months ago...so I want to pose this question..

We signed a SCOPE clause with DHL that stated we would be the only carrier for DHL freight in North America......they have found a way around that so far.... by turning us into a contractor....

What are you going to do when UPS/DHL makes you a contractor?......

If we had gone on strike...would it have been o.k. for UPS to fly our freight since we are just a contractor?

I read our bar and grill every day and frankly, there is very little discussion about the DHL deal, just he usual cast of characters bitching about the usual subjects.
You make the assumption that UPS will make us a contractor. I disagree with you. Just because something bad happened to your pilot group don't think that the same will happen here. You need to truly understand the UPS corporate culture of TOTAL control over every aspect of their business. I'm quite confident that this control will "protect" the IPA from the fate that you think we are destined to follow.

 

[Jetglow]

I hope you sleep well with that thought....I used too as well...


Once again....If we would have gone on strike against Astar...would it have been O.K. for UPS to fly DHL freight?

 

[Browntothebone]

With all due respect...you shoud read your IPA board..looks like you are already adressing SCOPE issues with the DHL situation...might be nothing... The deal has not even been signed yet and you are already seeing some kind of SCOPE issue...

Astar (49% owned by DHL) and was about to go on strike 3 months ago...so I want to pose this question..

We signed a SCOPE clause with DHL that stated we would be the only carrier for DHL freight in North America......they have found a way around that so far.... by turning us into a contractor....

What are you going to do when UPS/DHL makes you a contractor?......

If we had gone on strike...would it have been o.k. for UPS to fly our freight since we are just a contractor?

I guess you call it an ISSUE when the IPA and UPS get together to discuss the proposed deal and the impact that it will have on the airline. We have monthly scope meetings with the company.

 

[Jetglow]

If we would have gone on strike against Astar...would it have been O.K. for UPS to fly DHL freight?

Answer the question please.....

 

[brownie]

Usually when someone is threating strike the company goes after thier customers to switch thier accounts to them which fedex and ups have done to each other in the past and i'm sure that would be in your case too. If you've gone on strike both fedex and ups account executives would have gone ater your customers but no ups pilot would scab on your ramp to pick up your frieght.

 

[Browntothebone]

Usually when someone is threating strike the company goes after thier customers to switch thier accounts to them which fedex and ups have done to each other in the past and i'm sure that would be in your case too. If you've gone on strike both fedex and ups account executives would have gone ater your customers but no ups pilot would scab on your ramp to pick up your frieght.

During our strike in 97, Airborne's ops were bursting at the seams from all the UPS volume they were carrying.

 

[Jetglow]

Astar was not and that was ABX. They did not have a Scope clause with DHL.

You still are not answering the question.

 

[AV8OR]

Let me know if you want to apply to purple..

Given how helpful you have been 2 this discussion, I'll be sure and do just that. THANKS!

 

[HD2003]

The reality is that once a package enters the UPS system they are ALL UPS packages



BTB Thank you for proving our point

 

[DHL@nite]

While it sucks for you losing your jobs, the fact is that this is just a change of contractors for DHL from you to us.

Just a contractor. Wow. We've got guys that were hired by DHL (not "Astar") over 20 years ago. Our scope clause was with DHL. We are STILL 49% owned by DHL. DHL resorted to all sorts of wrangling, restructuring (the airline spin-off), twisting and turning in the courts to find a loophole in our scope clause and exploit it - and they were somewhat successful at it. Management wins, pilots loose.

While I expect that kind of behavior from airline management, I am somewhat surprised that there is another pilot sitting in the wings, wringing his hands in anticipation to take advantage of all of it - seemingly cheering for DHL managements efforts to gut our scope.

I guess pilots really are their own worst enemy.

 

[Browntothebone]

Astar was not and that was ABX. They did not have a Scope clause with DHL.

You still are not answering the question.

I and the IPA would not cross a legal picket line. Like Brownie said, if you guys went on strike, the shippers would quickly switch to UPS and FedEx and when they did, the volume would no longer be DHL volume it would be our volume and therefore I and the IPA would carry it.

 

[wickedride]

During our strike in 97, Airborne's ops were bursting at the seams from all the UPS volume they were carrying.

BULLCRAP on carrying UPS freight at least in UPS colors/packaging. The aircrews were looking for the Brown and it was made clear we were not flying struck goods. Thats not to say that sales/management didn't pick customers/freight because of the strike but (i assume) it was airborne freight in abx colors and not rebadged.
Why do you BTB spend so much time starting trouble on here between ABX/ASTAR or on other boards with the FedX posts. (qtr results)
We are all in the same ship and its just our turn in the toilet bowl. Do you think Eastern/PanAM guys from the sixties ever thought their demise was coming??? I hope we all find jobs that last a career with management who loves us and respects us, BUT.
Oh Well
WickedRide

 

[Browntothebone]

Just a contractor. Wow. We've got guys that were hired by DHL (not "Astar") over 20 years ago. Our scope clause was with DHL. We are STILL 49% owned by DHL. DHL resorted to all sorts of wrangling, restructuring (the airline spin-off), twisting and turning in the courts to find a loophole in our scope clause and exploit it - and they were somewhat successful at it. Management wins, pilots loose.

While I expect that kind of behavior from airline management, I am somewhat surprised that there is another pilot sitting in the wings, wringing his hands in anticipation to take advantage of all of it - seemingly cheering for DHL managements efforts to gut our scope.

I guess pilots really are their own worst enemy.

Once again, I and the rest of the IPA pilots are truly sorry to hear about what's going on up there. But some of you guys make it seem like it's our fault and want some form of compensation from the IPA. What do you want us to do, quit so you guys can take our place at UPS flying "your" freight?

 

[DHL@nite]

I would like to think that if UPS found a legal loophole in your scope clause (and you KNOW they are always looking) that our pilot group would state that we would not be interested in hauling UPS freight (and I think you would expect us to do that).

Regardless, I certainly wouldn't be on a webboard arguing your managements point of why they should be able to ship their freight on us. Talk about rubbing salt in wounds - calling 20 DHL veterans just "just a contractor"? Dang, man.

 

[rotor&wing]

I flew the majority of my career (21+years) working for DHL as an employee, not a contractor.

And yes, DHL signed a scope agreement with me as an employee, not a contractor.

Please stop trying to lump Astar as just another contractor. The history here goes much deeper than that.

 

[eatme]

"Once you get them running, you stay right on top of them, and that way a small force can defeat a large one every time... Only thus can a weaker country cope with a stronger; it must make up in activity what it lacks in strength." - Gen. Stonewall Jackson[/quote]

Well then wtf is this?

 

[AV8OR]

Again, if you'd pay attention...

It's my response to some folks at Brown A. Telling those of us at AStar, that we really should not fight this thing because there's no way to win against the Brown/Yellow freight train AND B. Giving us all the never thought of admonition that we should maybe update our resumes and and start sending out apps.(Woo hoo...thanks for THAT tip!! Yall must work for Kit Darby.)

That's WTF that is.