DHL's MAD WORLD

[AV8OR]

Let me know if you want to apply to purple..

Given how helpful you have been 2 this discussion, I'll be sure and do just that. THANKS!

 

[HD2003]

The reality is that once a package enters the UPS system they are ALL UPS packages



BTB Thank you for proving our point

 

[DHL@nite]

While it sucks for you losing your jobs, the fact is that this is just a change of contractors for DHL from you to us.

Just a contractor. Wow. We've got guys that were hired by DHL (not "Astar") over 20 years ago. Our scope clause was with DHL. We are STILL 49% owned by DHL. DHL resorted to all sorts of wrangling, restructuring (the airline spin-off), twisting and turning in the courts to find a loophole in our scope clause and exploit it - and they were somewhat successful at it. Management wins, pilots loose.

While I expect that kind of behavior from airline management, I am somewhat surprised that there is another pilot sitting in the wings, wringing his hands in anticipation to take advantage of all of it - seemingly cheering for DHL managements efforts to gut our scope.

I guess pilots really are their own worst enemy.

 

[Browntothebone]

Astar was not and that was ABX. They did not have a Scope clause with DHL.

You still are not answering the question.

I and the IPA would not cross a legal picket line. Like Brownie said, if you guys went on strike, the shippers would quickly switch to UPS and FedEx and when they did, the volume would no longer be DHL volume it would be our volume and therefore I and the IPA would carry it.

 

[wickedride]

During our strike in 97, Airborne's ops were bursting at the seams from all the UPS volume they were carrying.

BULLCRAP on carrying UPS freight at least in UPS colors/packaging. The aircrews were looking for the Brown and it was made clear we were not flying struck goods. Thats not to say that sales/management didn't pick customers/freight because of the strike but (i assume) it was airborne freight in abx colors and not rebadged.
Why do you BTB spend so much time starting trouble on here between ABX/ASTAR or on other boards with the FedX posts. (qtr results)
We are all in the same ship and its just our turn in the toilet bowl. Do you think Eastern/PanAM guys from the sixties ever thought their demise was coming??? I hope we all find jobs that last a career with management who loves us and respects us, BUT.
Oh Well
WickedRide

 

[Browntothebone]

Just a contractor. Wow. We've got guys that were hired by DHL (not "Astar") over 20 years ago. Our scope clause was with DHL. We are STILL 49% owned by DHL. DHL resorted to all sorts of wrangling, restructuring (the airline spin-off), twisting and turning in the courts to find a loophole in our scope clause and exploit it - and they were somewhat successful at it. Management wins, pilots loose.

While I expect that kind of behavior from airline management, I am somewhat surprised that there is another pilot sitting in the wings, wringing his hands in anticipation to take advantage of all of it - seemingly cheering for DHL managements efforts to gut our scope.

I guess pilots really are their own worst enemy.

Once again, I and the rest of the IPA pilots are truly sorry to hear about what's going on up there. But some of you guys make it seem like it's our fault and want some form of compensation from the IPA. What do you want us to do, quit so you guys can take our place at UPS flying "your" freight?

 

[DHL@nite]

I would like to think that if UPS found a legal loophole in your scope clause (and you KNOW they are always looking) that our pilot group would state that we would not be interested in hauling UPS freight (and I think you would expect us to do that).

Regardless, I certainly wouldn't be on a webboard arguing your managements point of why they should be able to ship their freight on us. Talk about rubbing salt in wounds - calling 20 DHL veterans just "just a contractor"? Dang, man.

 

[rotor&wing]

I flew the majority of my career (21+years) working for DHL as an employee, not a contractor.

And yes, DHL signed a scope agreement with me as an employee, not a contractor.

Please stop trying to lump Astar as just another contractor. The history here goes much deeper than that.

 

[eatme]

"Once you get them running, you stay right on top of them, and that way a small force can defeat a large one every time... Only thus can a weaker country cope with a stronger; it must make up in activity what it lacks in strength." - Gen. Stonewall Jackson[/quote]

Well then wtf is this?

 

[AV8OR]

Again, if you'd pay attention...

It's my response to some folks at Brown A. Telling those of us at AStar, that we really should not fight this thing because there's no way to win against the Brown/Yellow freight train AND B. Giving us all the never thought of admonition that we should maybe update our resumes and and start sending out apps.(Woo hoo...thanks for THAT tip!! Yall must work for Kit Darby.)

That's WTF that is.

 

[nitefr8dog]

During our strike in 97, Airborne's ops were bursting at the seams from all the UPS volume they were carrying.

The extra freight we carried in 97 was ABX freight because of the strike. UPS customers left UPS and became Airborne Express customers because they where pissed off at UPS. We carried no freight labeled UPS!

 

[nitefr8dog]

I and the IPA would not cross a legal picket line. Like Brownie said, if you guys went on strike, the shippers would quickly switch to UPS and FedEx and when they did, the volume would no longer be DHL volume it would be our volume and therefore I and the IPA would carry it.

BTB, if you think this could never happen to you remember the giant you going to partner with DPWN, which ownes DHL. DPWN made 663B in profit last year DHL is one of just 600 companies they own.They could buy UPS with ashtray change!

 

[eatme]

Again, if you'd pay attention...

It's my response to some folks at Brown A. Telling those of us at AStar, that we really should not fight this thing because there's no way to win against the Brown/Yellow freight train AND B. Giving us all the never thought of admonition that we should maybe update our resumes and and start sending out apps.(Woo hoo...thanks for THAT tip!! Yall must work for Kit Darby.)

That's WTF that is.

Good luck with that dude..

 

[eatme]

"Once you get them running, you stay right on top of them, and that way a small force can defeat a large one every time... Only thus can a weaker country cope with a stronger; it must make up in activity what it lacks in strength." - Gen. Stonewall Jackson

Well then wtf is this?[/quote]

Wasn't Stonewall shot by his own troops, and died as a result? Maybe you should quote some winners instead. History doesn't remember losers.

 

[brownie]

BTB, if you think this could never happen to you remember the giant you going to partner with DPWN, which ownes DHL. DPWN made 663B in profit last year DHL is one of just 600 companies they own.They could buy UPS with ashtray change!

Well so far they haven't been able to use that ashray change to bribe thier way out of this whole mess with state of ohio yet + if they're as powerful as you say they are i'm sure they would have just made fdx and ups thier personal bitch so they can run the whole show without any interfernce. Wait a minute if my math is correct to make fdx and ups thier vendors they have to sell two ashtrays. Maybe it's just cheaper to sell a gray/yellow toilet rather than an ashtray.

 

[Jetglow]

Once again, I and the rest of the IPA pilots are truly sorry to hear about what's going on up there. But some of you guys make it seem like it's our fault and want some form of compensation from the IPA. What do you want us to do, quit so you guys can take our place at UPS flying "your" freight?

Thanks for that safe "non" answer to my direct question....it was like pulling teeth...

So...If you guys go on strike and you are just a contractor for DHL....you wont mind if this contractor(who already has a scope clause with DHL) crosses your picket line to fly the DHL freight.....

Hmmm...I wonder if they will get the brown freight mixed up with the yellow.....maybe the packages will be mustard colored by that time and we wont know if it is Brown or Yellow....

Do you see what I am getting at? It is going to be a mess that you wont be able to handle.....and that is what they want.

 

[flyinboxes]

Well then wtf is this?

Wasn't Stonewall shot by his own troops, and died as a result? Maybe you should quote some winners instead. History doesn't remember losers.[/quote]

But I thought I learned about Stonewall in grade school and college in my "history" books. People learn from history, winners or losers. Corporations learn from History. The History of DHL Airways will not be forgotten by DHL or UPS....hmmmm.

 

[nitefr8dog]

Well so far they haven't been able to use that ashray change to bribe thier way out of this whole mess with state of ohio yet + if they're as powerful as you say they are i'm sure they would have just made fdx and ups thier personal bitch so they can run the whole show without any interfernce. Wait a minute if my math is correct to make fdx and ups thier vendors they have to sell two ashtrays. Maybe it's just cheaper to sell a gray/yellow toilet rather than an ashtray.

DPWN has planned on spending 2.5b to make this to UPS. And its not how powerful I say they are its what their stock reports say. It make take more than that but they have the money! All freight will be moved by ACMI carriers in the future.

 

[eatme]

DPWN has planned on spending 2.5b to make this to UPS. And its not how powerful I say they are its what their stock reports say. It make take more than that but they have the money! All freight will be moved by ACMI carriers in the future.

Well at the rate they are going out of business these days, it will probably be in the FAR future.

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

You make the assumption that UPS will make us a contractor. I disagree with you. Just because something bad happened to your pilot group don't think that the same will happen here. You need to truly understand the UPS corporate culture of TOTAL control over every aspect of their business. I'm quite confident that this control will "protect" the IPA from the fate that you think we are destined to follow.

I respectfully disagree. Although DHL owned "only" 49% of Astar, they controlled virtually EVERY aspect of their operations, from the types of equipment we operated down to the management clowns who were running the show. John Dasburg didn't take his morning $hit until he'd checked with DPWN to see how high and what color.

That's how it is in ANY business that has only ONE customer.

Because 35% of their revenue was generated from non-DHL flying, DPWN's influence over ABX was somewhat less. ABX was able to pursue customers and aircraft acquisitions it deemed necessary to compete in the ACMI market at large, not simply the rag-tag fleet that Astar was saddled with.

Why do you think DHL was so displeased with ABX? It was because Joe Hete wasn't about to let ABX fall to the classic "pimp-hoe" relationship DHL demanded from it's primary contractor. That have may brought about DPWN's scorn at the time, but it's why they'll survive this debacle and Astar will not.

Don't forget, Browntothebone, that UPS started their operation using contractors and it worked pretty well for them. It was the FAA, and not UPS management, that forced them to bring their flight ops in-house. Whether the coming administration would look favorably towards any "re-structuring" of that arrangement in the interest of "maintaining competitiveness" is debatable, but not out of the bounds of possibility.

If I were to offer just one word of advice to my friends and both UPS and FedEX, it would be this;

"Don't think for one minute that what happened to DHL's pilots can't happen to your own"

 

[eatme]

If I were to offer just one word of advice to my friends and both UPS and FedEX, it would be this;

"Don't think for one minute that what happened to DHL's pilots can't happen to your own"[/quote]

Well then if that is the case, it would have a ripple effect far larger than just DHL's demise, it would affect many companies and businesses in this country that would be clamoring for reliable package delivery that we provide now; and that ain't gonna happen.

 

[eatme]

"Don't think for one minute that what happened to DHL's pilots can't happen to your own"[/quote]

DHL, Airborne, et al, were always on the periphery looking in on the big boys. You didn't have the commitment nor the money to play on the same level of FDX or UPS, DPWN realized this and pulled the plug.

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

If I were to offer just one word of advice to my friends and both UPS and FedEX, it would be this;

"Don't think for one minute that what happened to DHL's pilots can't happen to your own"

Well then if that is the case, it would have a ripple effect far larger than just DHL's demise, it would affect many companies and businesses in this country that would be clamoring for reliable package delivery that we provide now; and that ain't gonna happen.[/quote]You're assuming that contractors could not or would not provide the level of service that dedicated, in-house employees can. That is a false assumption.

UPS and FedEx both provide essentiallly the same service, the difference being that UPS uses "employees," while FedEx relies heavily on "independent contractors" to handle the actual deliveries. They both provide a similar level of service to their customers, so much so that you wouldn't know which is which unless you ask. (which I always do)

The problem DHL had with IC's wasn't so much the fact that they were IC's, it was the fact that they were unwilling to spend the money to get good ones.

 

[MACHTRANSDUCER]

more on the madness

fresh information:


http://www.scdigest.com/assets/On_Target/08-06-23-1.php?cid=1765


feeder flights from ILN to SDF? Right how about CVG to SDF?

 

[Airbum]

I

If I were to offer just one word of advice to my friends and both UPS and FedEX, it would be this;

"Don't think for one minute that what happened to DHL's pilots can't happen to your own"

Whistlin Dan,

I would agree with you there. I'm sure UPS runs these ideas around all the time. The day it becomes more profitable for them to do it they will.

 

[Publishers]

I saw the ad today in the Sun-Sentinel from ALPA decrying the DHL deal. What seems to be lost in all this is how little the air side of the equation had to do with any of this.
DHL basically gave up on developing the US market and the deal with UPS is just short of saying, we are done here, we give up to the others, see you altogether.
This business starts on the streets and in perception of delivery capability. No offense, but to the customer he does not care whether it got there by 747 or 172, by truck, car, or boat, by rail or wish.
That ad was a total waste of ALPA dollars except to make some flightcrews think they are doing something.

 

[Fly Astar Jets]

....
That ad was a total waste of ALPA dollars except to make some flightcrews think they are doing something.

Incorrect. That ad was paid by MY 15 years of ALPA dues. My union is doing exactly what it has always said it would do; "ALPA speaks for me. And I tell them what to say."

Thanks for playing.

FAJ

 

[DC8CRIVER]

The Astar ALPA pilots choose to stand and fight. The ads are a part of this battle. The Astar picket in front of the DHL U. S. Headquarters in Plantation, Florida (where pilots from five other airlines joined us) is another action that just happened today. There will be many more to come.

The DHL/UPS deal is clearly fraught with anti-trust issues. We obviously would not have the large number of politicians and the State Attorney General involved if there were not at least the appearance of a strong anti-trust case against the deal.

The Astar pilots have mapped out a plan of attack to scuttle the deal by emphasizing and publicizing the numerous negative aspects of DHL's planned annihilation of an entire Midwestern U. S. town. We are being proactive and aggressive.

There is no chance of wooing DHL back with concessions - we know that. Their history of cataclysmic blunders and catastrophic business decisions has rendered a once proud and innovative U. S. born corporation impudent and defeated in the U. S. market.

That is not to say, however, that they could not resurrect a niche position in the U. S. to serve their vast global network. Fedex and UPS may be pulling at the reins to go global, but DHL has had strong, seasoned, and successful airlines with hundreds of aircraft in many, many far reaches of the world for many years, now. It will be quite a while before Fedex and UPS can create any meaningful market share against an domestic airline staffed with domestic crews in Bahrain, Germany, England, Hong Kong, Panama, etc., etc. DHL has been there and doing that successfully since the 80's and they make quite a lot of money in their non U. S. delivery business. In order to support this offshore business, they NEED a U. S. presence. Maybe not much of one, but they need it nonetheless.

Since Joe Hete did not invite Astar to be part of his "new" save-DHL-in-the-U.S. plan, Astar has been left to our own devices.

We intend to protect our recently signed contract that DHL was party to and inherit this flying.

8

 

[Browntothebone]

The Astar ALPA pilots choose to stand and fight. The ads are a part of this battle. The Astar picket in front of the DHL U. S. Headquarters in Plantation, Florida (where pilots from five other airlines joined us) is another action that just happened today. There will be many more to come.

The DHL/UPS deal is clearly fraught with anti-trust issues. We obviously would not have the large number of politicians and the State Attorney General involved if there were not at least the appearance of a strong anti-trust case against the deal.

The Astar pilots have mapped out a plan of attack to scuttle the deal by emphasizing and publicizing the numerous negative aspects of DHL's planned annihilation of an entire Midwestern U. S. town. We are being proactive and aggressive.

There is no chance of wooing DHL back with concessions - we know that. Their history of cataclysmic blunders and catastrophic business decisions has rendered a once proud and innovative U. S. born corporation impudent and defeated in the U. S. market.

That is not to say, however, that they could not resurrect a niche position in the U. S. to serve their vast global network. Fedex and UPS may be pulling at the reins to go global, but DHL has had strong, seasoned, and successful airlines with hundreds of aircraft in many, many far reaches of the world for many years, now. It will be quite a while before Fedex and UPS can create any meaningful market share against an domestic airline staffed with domestic crews in Bahrain, Germany, England, Hong Kong, Panama, etc., etc. DHL has been there and doing that successfully since the 80's and they make quite a lot of money in their non U. S. delivery business. In order to support this offshore business, they NEED a U. S. presence. Maybe not much of one, but they need it nonetheless.

Since Joe Hete did not invite Astar to be part of his "new" save-DHL-in-the-U.S. plan, Astar has been left to our own devices.

We intend to protect our recently signed contract that DHL was party to and inherit this flying.

8

So what are the clear anti-trust issues? The politicians are in it just to get their names in the news and so that they can say this November, after the deal with UPS is done, that they TRIED their best.

 

[shooter]

Since Joe Hete did not invite Astar to be part of his "new" save-DHL-in-the-U.S. plan, Astar has been left to our own devices.

8

I don't think he had to invite Astar. We already know ABX can't haul every market DHL has. While I don't know what the plan would say, my bet is that it is something along the lines of "here is what we can do for you, how we can do it, how much we would charge and how it would be to your advantage". The rest DHL would fill in with what their network would provide. DHL owns 49% of Astar for all sakes. I think DHL already knows what it can and can't do with what it already owns.

Think of the plan as more of a sales call rather than how you are thinking of a plan. I could be wrong, but there is no indication it is any different than just that.