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DHL's MAD WORLD

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It really sucks what is happening to you guys, but I wouldn't waste my energy fighting it. The deal will most likely happen, and you would be better off getting your apps ready if UPS decides to hire.

I read somewhere that the UPS Political Action Committee is the largest donor in the USA to federal campaigns/candidates.

UPS gets what UPS wants.

Plus, a lot of jobs will be created at UPS because of this deal. IMO, you and yor families would be better off preparing for the next step in your careers rather than wasting precious time fighting something that can't be won.
 
I get a kick out of the argument you guys try and make about how the DHL packages will be left behind if space is limited. The reality is that once a package enters the UPS system they are ALL UPS packages and UPS will do whatever it takes to make service to it's customers because DHL is a customer.
 
Yep. The times they are a'changin'. And I accept it that soon, I'll be drenched to the bone..........etc, etc.
 
Bob Dylan said:
It really sucks what is happening to you guys, but I wouldn't waste my energy fighting it. The deal will most likely happen, and you would be better off getting your apps ready if UPS decides to hire.

I read somewhere that the UPS Political Action Committee is the largest donor in the USA to federal campaigns/candidates.

UPS gets what UPS wants.

Plus, a lot of jobs will be created at UPS because of this deal. IMO, you and yor families would be better off preparing for the next step in your careers rather than wasting precious time fighting something that can't be won.
Click to expand...

'Preciate the sentiments, but really, I think I'll take my advice on how to proceed from someone other than the individuals who stand to benefit due to my impending demise. Advice like this...


"Once you get them running, you stay right on top of them, and that way a small force can defeat a large one every time... Only thus can a weaker country cope with a stronger; it must make up in activity what it lacks in strength." - Gen. Stonewall Jackson
 
Browntothebone said:
I get a kick out of the argument you guys try and make about how the DHL packages will be left behind if space is limited. The reality is that once a package enters the UPS system they are ALL UPS packages and UPS will do whatever it takes to make service to it's customers because DHL is a customer.
Click to expand...
BTB
DHL always scored F when it came to serve thier customers and this is not aimed at the air side rather the ground side. your ground delivery was horrible. I had several problems with them over the last 2 yrs and i had several friends that cancelled thier huge business accounts with them just because they were not able to deliver what they promised. I had an important document shipped and i could not recieve it just because the driver was sick and decided to go home with my documents in his personal truck. NOW THAT'S F...KED UP
 
AV8OR said:
'Preciate the sentiments, but really, I think I'll take my advice on how to proceed from someone other than the individuals who stand to benefit due to my impending demise. Advice like this...


"Once you get them running, you stay right on top of them, and that way a small force can defeat a large one every time... Only thus can a weaker country cope with a stronger; it must make up in activity what it lacks in strength." - Gen. Stonewall Jackson
Click to expand...

I don't really think that UPS pilots will be benefitting all that much. Plus, this isn't something military strategy will solve.

I wish you the best, but I think you are heading down the wrong road.

Get the resume updated, get the apps out, network with other pilots - you'll probably come out stronger, and with a better, more stable job.
 
brownie said:
BTB
DHL always scored F when it came to serve thier customers and this is not aimed at the air side rather the ground side. your ground delivery was horrible. I had several problems with them over the last 2 yrs and i had several friends that cancelled thier huge business accounts with them just because they were not able to deliver what they promised. I had an important document shipped and i could not recieve it just because the driver was sick and decided to go home with my documents in his personal truck. NOW THAT'S F...KED UP
Click to expand...


And once UPS delivers it's packages to it's customer DHL, DHL can do whatever DHL wants to do with them like provide the crappy service as noted above.
 
AV8OR said:
"Once you get them running, you stay right on top of them, and that way a small force can defeat a large one every time... Only thus can a weaker country cope with a stronger; it must make up in activity what it lacks in strength." - Gen. Stonewall Jackson
Click to expand...

Rip-snorting, stirring stuff; but wasn't this Jackson person fighting for the Hillbilly South - the same South who got their rear-ends well and truly whipped in the mid 19th Century?
 
UPS pilots should realize that DHL's little test tube experiment in Wilmington Ohio is just the beginning...and if the IPA agrees to fly DHL freight they will be next.

DHL may be a customer of UPS's...but DHL will not be able to compete or beat the prices of the competitor it has hired to carry its product. That must be a great sales pitch for UPS sales reps...
If DHL is willing to lose more money & customers per year than it already is losing or lost.....there must be more to it and some kind of advantage to DHL...not UPS.

The UPS pilots are a bunch of good guys....but I'm sure they would fight hard for their jobs if they were faced with the same fate that DHL has delt to its pilots. So... you cant blame DHL guys for pulling everything out of the hat just to keep what they probably don't realize is already a lost cause.

The UPS pilot group will see whoever and whatever foreign & domestic contractor UPS/DHL can think of next on the ramp....mark my words. It will happen slowly and painfully to UPS....Just like it did for the DHL Airways(Astar) and Airborne Express pilots. DHL is no threat unless it infiltrates UPS. Yea....every airline has had an "iron clad" scope clause that has been blown to bits. Scope is just a bunch of words to be manipulated by the airline when it decides the time has come. I have not seen one pilot scope caluse that has ever held water. IPA/UPS's will be no different except it will look less like big brown and more like brown skid marks in underwear when its over.

There will be only short term gains for those suffering the age 65 bulge at UPS....followed by long term pain if they take the Appel from the tree. (pun)
Take an Astar or ABX pilots job and UPS pilots will not get much in return....except contributing to their own errosion. DHL will fail with or without UPS's help so why not make the mismanagement of Deutsche Post & DHL answer for their stupidity?

Tp be honest....I dont know if UPS is screwing DHL or DHL will end up screwing up UPS at this point.

I think the yellow virus is going to crawl up the Big Brown Hole, manifest into a monster and pop out of its chest to lay more eggs.

It should be interesting to see how it all plays out over the next few years. I hope the UPS pilot group is prepared for the pilot professions sake. The only good flying jobs left are UPS or Fed Ex.....but management has the 2 targets left in its cross hairs.
 
Last edited:
HeavyjetDC8 said:
Rip-snorting, stirring stuff; but wasn't this Jackson person fighting for the Hillbilly South - the same South who got their rear-ends well and truly whipped in the mid 19th Century?
Click to expand...

Hey dude...yeah it's rip snorting stuff and if you had any knowledge of battle history you'd know that had he lived, Jackson is considered by many current military scholars to be the South's only hope for victory against the North. Unfortunately he died of pneumonia, but in battle he was defeated only once at the Battle of Kernsville in 1862.

And further more....Hillbilly?.....are you friggin kiddin me?? Jackson was Westpoint educated
and well travelled before the War. I got brought to a Union concentration camp in the middle of a corn field from the great State of Kentucky and look what happened?? Hillbilly? Dude, you need to visit the local ILN Walmart if you want to see a picture associated with that word!!! I'd put my Southern Belle's up against your ILN debutantes any day!!! Those gals are tougher than a dime steak!!

You better hope you've got at least a little more Jackson and a little less McClellan in Joe Hete my friend, even though Gen. McClellan's "team" won, otherwise you'll find yourself in serious retreat mode!!
 
AV8OR said:
Hey dude...yeah it's rip snorting stuff and if you had any knowledge of battle history you'd know that had he lived, Jackson is considered by many current military scholars to be the South's only hope for victory against the North. Unfortunately he died of pneumonia, but in battle he was defeated only once at the Battle of Kernsville in 1862.

And further more....Hillbilly?.....are you friggin kiddin me?? Jackson was Westpoint educated
and well travelled before the War. I got brought to a Union concentration camp in the middle of a corn field from the great State of Kentucky and look what happened?? Hillbilly? Dude, you need to visit the local ILN Walmart if you want to see a picture associated with that word!!! I'd put my Southern Belle's up against your ILN debutantes any day!!! Those gals are tougher than a dime steak!!

You better hope you've got at least a little more Jackson and a little less McClellan in Joe Hete my friend, even though Gen. McClellan's "team" won, otherwise you'll find yourself in serious retreat mode!!
Click to expand...

OH MY GOD AV8OR, you just called him dude. I did that once and his bitter butt has been on mine ever since. RUN FOR THE HILLBILLY HILLS! :laugh:
 
AV8OR said:
'Preciate the sentiments, but really, I think I'll take my advice on how to proceed from someone other than the individuals who stand to benefit due to my impending demise. Advice like this...


"Once you get them running, you stay right on top of them, and that way a small force can defeat a large one every time... Only thus can a weaker country cope with a stronger; it must make up in activity what it lacks in strength." - Gen. Stonewall Jackson
Click to expand...

Amen AV8OR. Take advice from someone who mattered. There will be very few jobs "created" from this mess.
 
So this thread has devolved into: A)my civil war general can kick your civil war generals a$$
B) our hillbilly southern chicks are better than your ILN and SDF broads.

Did I miss anything else?
 
eatme said:
So this thread has devolved into: A)my civil war general can kick your civil war generals a$$
B) our hillbilly southern chicks are better than your ILN and SDF broads.

Did I miss anything else?
Click to expand...

Nope. That sounds about right. Oh yeah, ya missed one thing...After doing this job for 20+ years, if I want your career advice, I'll ask for it. Pay a little better attention next time EatMe! You'll catch on.
 
And the SCOPE Problems begin...

IPA-UPS Discuss Scope, DHL Deal, Concern over 2 Pairings in 08-05 ANC MD-11 Bid Pack

scope_009_000.jpg
Scope issues, the proposed DHL deal and the IPA’s concern about two pairings in the ANC MD-11 bid package (08-05) were among the topics discussed at today’s Scope meeting.
The EB tells IPNN Interactive they are in disagreement with the Company over pairing #s 400 and 409 which appear on lines 7 and 8 in the MD-11 ANC Bid Package and involve SJU turns out of SDF on ANC trips.
As you may recall, last summer the Association tracked the SDF-SJU-SDF trip and found that the pairing went over eight hours a considerable amount of time. The EB cautions that the same problem still exists, it has just been moved to ANC on another fleet.
If you are an ANC MD-11 crewmember and are assigned a SJU trip and go over eight block hours, you must have 18-hour FAR rest after that duty period as per the FAR Flag Rules.
As always, if you are scheduled for under eight block hours in a duty period and your flight exceeds eight hours, let the IPA know. Email
Additionally, at the close of today’s Scope meeting, the EB requested a meeting with UPS to come up with a transition plan once the proposed DHL-UPS deal is finalized.
 
Jetglow said:
UPS pilots should realize that DHL's little test tube experiment in Wilmington Ohio is just the beginning...and if the IPA agrees to fly DHL freight they will be next.

DHL may be a customer of UPS's...but DHL will not be able to compete or beat the prices of the competitor it has hired to carry its product. That must be a great sales pitch for UPS sales reps...
If DHL is willing to lose more money & customers per year than it already is losing or lost.....there must be more to it and some kind of advantage to DHL...not UPS.

The UPS pilots are a bunch of good guys....but I'm sure they would fight hard for their jobs if they were faced with the same fate that DHL has delt to its pilots. So... you cant blame DHL guys for pulling everything out of the hat just to keep what they probably don't realize is already a lost cause.

The UPS pilot group will see whoever and whatever foreign & domestic contractor UPS/DHL can think of next on the ramp....mark my words. It will happen slowly and painfully to UPS....Just like it did for the DHL Airways(Astar) and Airborne Express pilots. DHL is no threat unless it infiltrates UPS. Yea....every airline has had an "iron clad" scope clause that has been blown to bits. Scope is just a bunch of words to be manipulated by the airline when it decides the time has come. I have not seen one pilot scope caluse that has ever held water. IPA/UPS's will be no different except it will look less like big brown and more like brown skid marks in underwear when its over.

There will be only short term gains for those suffering the age 65 bulge at UPS....followed by long term pain if they take the Appel from the tree. (pun)
Take an Astar or ABX pilots job and UPS pilots will not get much in return....except contributing to their own errosion. DHL will fail with or without UPS's help so why not make the mismanagement of Deutsche Post & DHL answer for their stupidity?

Tp be honest....I dont know if UPS is screwing DHL or DHL will end up screwing up UPS at this point.

I think the yellow virus is going to crawl up the Big Brown Hole, manifest into a monster and pop out of its chest to lay more eggs.

It should be interesting to see how it all plays out over the next few years. I hope the UPS pilot group is prepared for the pilot professions sake. The only good flying jobs left are UPS or Fed Ex.....but management has the 2 targets left in its cross hairs.
Click to expand...



UPS has already told the IPA that for the duration of the transfer of flying to UPS, that they can expect to see all sorts of contractors on UPS ramps and once the transfer is complete then all the flying will revert to UPS. You guys are making way too much out of this. While it sucks for you losing your jobs, the fact is that this is just a change of contractors for DHL from you to us. There is no sinister overtones with this deal as far as the IPA is concerned. There might be some kind of capacity sharing agreement whereby UPS volume that we currently either use airline belly space or common carriage to remote parts of the world that UPS does not fly to themselves could end up on whoever DHL uses to service that part of the world. UPS would never be flying that stuff themselves anyway, so who cares what method UPS uses.
 
Jetglow said:
And the SCOPE Problems begin...

IPA-UPS Discuss Scope, DHL Deal, Concern over 2 Pairings in 08-05 ANC MD-11 Bid Pack
scope_009_000.jpg
Scope issues, the proposed DHL deal and the IPA’s concern about two pairings in the ANC MD-11 bid package (08-05) were among the topics discussed at today’s Scope meeting.
The EB tells IPNN Interactive they are in disagreement with the Company over pairing #s 400 and 409 which appear on lines 7 and 8 in the MD-11 ANC Bid Package and involve SJU turns out of SDF on ANC trips.
As you may recall, last summer the Association tracked the SDF-SJU-SDF trip and found that the pairing went over eight hours a considerable amount of time. The EB cautions that the same problem still exists, it has just been moved to ANC on another fleet.
If you are an ANC MD-11 crewmember and are assigned a SJU trip and go over eight block hours, you must have 18-hour FAR rest after that duty period as per the FAR Flag Rules.
As always, if you are scheduled for under eight block hours in a duty period and your flight exceeds eight hours, let the IPA know. Email
Additionally, at the close of today’s Scope meeting, the EB requested a meeting with UPS to come up with a transition plan once the proposed DHL-UPS deal is finalized.
Click to expand...


And just what scope problems are your referring to?
 
With all due respect...you shoud read your IPA board..looks like you are already adressing SCOPE issues with the DHL situation...might be nothing... The deal has not even been signed yet and you are already seeing some kind of SCOPE issue...

Astar (49% owned by DHL) and was about to go on strike 3 months ago...so I want to pose this question..

We signed a SCOPE clause with DHL that stated we would be the only carrier for DHL freight in North America......they have found a way around that so far.... by turning us into a contractor....

What are you going to do when UPS/DHL makes you a contractor?......

If we had gone on strike...would it have been o.k. for UPS to fly our freight since we are just a contractor?
 
Last edited:
Jetglow said:
With all due respect...you shoud read your IPA board..looks like you are already adressing SCOPE issues with the DHL situation...might be nothing... The deal has not even been signed yet and you are already seeing some kind of SCOPE issue...

Astar (49% owned by DHL) and was about to go on strike 3 months ago...so I want to pose this question..

We signed a SCOPE clause with DHL that stated we would be the only carrier for DHL freight in North America......they have found a way around that so far.... by turning us into a contractor....

What are you going to do when UPS/DHL makes you a contractor?......

If we had gone on strike...would it have been o.k. for UPS to fly our freight since we are just a contractor?
Click to expand...


I read our bar and grill every day and frankly, there is very little discussion about the DHL deal, just he usual cast of characters bitching about the usual subjects.
You make the assumption that UPS will make us a contractor. I disagree with you. Just because something bad happened to your pilot group don't think that the same will happen here. You need to truly understand the UPS corporate culture of TOTAL control over every aspect of their business. I'm quite confident that this control will "protect" the IPA from the fate that you think we are destined to follow.
 
I hope you sleep well with that thought....I used too as well...


Once again....If we would have gone on strike against Astar...would it have been O.K. for UPS to fly DHL freight?
 
Jetglow said:
With all due respect...you shoud read your IPA board..looks like you are already adressing SCOPE issues with the DHL situation...might be nothing... The deal has not even been signed yet and you are already seeing some kind of SCOPE issue...

Astar (49% owned by DHL) and was about to go on strike 3 months ago...so I want to pose this question..

We signed a SCOPE clause with DHL that stated we would be the only carrier for DHL freight in North America......they have found a way around that so far.... by turning us into a contractor....

What are you going to do when UPS/DHL makes you a contractor?......

If we had gone on strike...would it have been o.k. for UPS to fly our freight since we are just a contractor?
Click to expand...


I guess you call it an ISSUE when the IPA and UPS get together to discuss the proposed deal and the impact that it will have on the airline. We have monthly scope meetings with the company.
 
If we would have gone on strike against Astar...would it have been O.K. for UPS to fly DHL freight?

Answer the question please.....
 
Usually when someone is threating strike the company goes after thier customers to switch thier accounts to them which fedex and ups have done to each other in the past and i'm sure that would be in your case too. If you've gone on strike both fedex and ups account executives would have gone ater your customers but no ups pilot would scab on your ramp to pick up your frieght.
 
brownie said:
Usually when someone is threating strike the company goes after thier customers to switch thier accounts to them which fedex and ups have done to each other in the past and i'm sure that would be in your case too. If you've gone on strike both fedex and ups account executives would have gone ater your customers but no ups pilot would scab on your ramp to pick up your frieght.
Click to expand...

During our strike in 97, Airborne's ops were bursting at the seams from all the UPS volume they were carrying.
 
Astar was not and that was ABX. They did not have a Scope clause with DHL.

You still are not answering the question.
 

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