Departure Procedure Question

[Stifler's Mom]

I don't have my Jepp plates with me, so going to do this best I can by memory.

Departing from Macon (MCN) on runway 6 in IFR conditions. The Departure Procedure says to turn to a heading of 090. The tower initially told us to fly runway heading.

What would be the appropriate thing? Turn to a heading of 090 or fly runway heading. I thought that the procedure of a heading of 090 was correct as the Tower doesn't have radar contract to provide us with obstacle avoidance.

Beuler???????

 

[aa73]

I don't have my Jepp plates with me, so going to do this best I can by memory.

Departing from Macon (MCN) on runway 6 in IFR conditions. The Departure Procedure says to turn to a heading of 090. The tower initially told us to fly runway heading.

What would be the appropriate thing? Turn to a heading of 090 or fly runway heading. I thought that the procedure of a heading of 090 was correct as the Tower doesn't have radar contract to provide us with obstacle avoidance.

Beuler???????

MILF - if Tower issues you a heading to fly, that always takes priority over whatever the DP specifies. They probably coordinate with Departure control or Center for the min vectoring altitude before giving the heading to you.

 

[Flying Illini]

Based on what happened to us today, I would say that if tower gave you an assigned heading that you are to fly THAT new assigned heading. Not the one on the departure procedure...I say that based on this:
Leaving KABE (allentown, PA) this morning we departed rwy 24. The DP says fly rwy heading through 800' then a right turn to 320 do not exceed 190 kts. We recieved this DP from clearance. When tower gave us our takeoff clearance he ONLY said, "...cleared for take-off, rwy 24." Hence, the previous clearance would take precedence.
In your case, since you recieved an amended clearance, I would fly what the twr told you to.

I may be waaaay off base on this and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

Of course, you could always clarify with tower...that's alot easier than a NASA report.

 

[Flying Illini]

...aa73 posted while I was typing...sorry for the duplicate answer.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

I don't have my Jepp plates with me, so going to do this best I can by memory.

Departing from Macon (MCN) on runway 6 in IFR conditions. The Departure Procedure says to turn to a heading of 090. The tower initially told us to fly runway heading.

What would be the appropriate thing? Turn to a heading of 090 or fly runway heading. I thought that the procedure of a heading of 090 was correct as the Tower doesn't have radar contract to provide us with obstacle avoidance.

Beuler???????

The only time to use a Departure Procedure is when the airport is IFR (or below minima dictated by the Procedure), and you have not recieved any particular initial assignment on receipt of your IFR clearance. Usually this happens with the tower closed. Issuing authority will say:
"cleared as filed, maintain 3000, contact me when airborne, void if not off by 12:34" In that case you are to fly the obstacle departure procedure. If they assign a heading, that negates the need to fly the procedure.

If you happen to lose an engine: the ONLY procedure to fly is what is described in the Airport Analysis manual. If none, go straight out. Y'all should know this stuff...

 

[satpak77]

Aim 5-2-6

read that, pretty lengthy, talks about DP's and basically says that ATC may vector aircraft off the DP for system efficiency and traffic control

I would assume the "runway heading" is vector-ish in nature, regarding the DP

http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/AIM/Chap5/aim0502.html#5-2-6

note that SID's are also DP's, altho we tend to think of "the front of the plate book" when talking about DP's.

If you depart DFW and the SID requires "turn to XXX at 2 DME, intercept Maverick XXX outbound" and tower says "Eagle Flight, maintain runway heading", then you maintain runway heading, period.

 

[svcta]

Asssigned-Expected-Vectored-Filed, in that order.

 

[Rogue5]

Hey svcta:

If you're getting that order from 91.185(c) "Lost Comm under IFR" the order to follow is actually:

(1) Route. (i) By the route assigned in the last ATC clearance received;

(ii) If being radar vectored, by the direct route from the point of radio failure to the fix, route, or airway specified in the vector clearance;

(iii) In the absence of an assigned route, by the route that ATC has advised may be expected in a further clearance; or

(iv) In the absence of an assigned route or a route that ATC has advised may be expected in a further clearance, by the route filed in the flight plan.

AVEF, not AEVF.

Back to the Raider game...

 

[FmrFreightDog]

If you happen to lose an engine: the ONLY procedure to fly is what is described in the Airport Analysis manual. If none, go straight out. Y'all should know this stuff...

Yes.... And what you are, in effect, saying is that even though he didn't know the answer he should know better than to ask the question. There's so much complaining going around on this board that it's actually refreshing when someone asks a legitimate question. If someone asks a question, and you know the answer, I would think the answer would suffice. The condescending comment is unnecessary and inappropriate.

 

[Rythm3]

Asssigned-Expected-Vectored-Filed, in that order.

Are you sure about that? I always thought it was Assigned, vectored, expected, filed. I could be wrong too. It's been a while.

 

[TonyC]

Are you sure about that? I always thought it was Assigned, vectored, expected, filed. I could be wrong too. It's been a while.

The ole "Avenue F" acronym: AVE F

 

[SkyBoy1981]

Yes.... And what you are, in effect, saying is that even though he didn't know the answer he should know better than to ask the question. There's so much complaining going around on this board that it's actually refreshing when someone asks a legitimate question. If someone asks a question, and you know the answer, I would think the answer would suffice. The condescending comment is unnecessary and inappropriate.

I'll second that!

Also, at towered airports, unless you were given a DP as part of your clearance that specifies a heading to fly, the Tower/Local controller is required to give you a heading as part of your takeoff clearance. As Oakum mentioned, the Obstacle DP on the back of the airport diagram is to be used for non-towered airport departures and engine failures.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

No harm, no foul. We querried the tower about our initial heading. We were concerned about engine out climb performance because there is an antenna farm off the end of the runway.

One of those learning experiences that we encounter from time to time and was wondering what you all thought.

Thanks for the insight.

 

[atrdriver]

What do you do in ATL? You fly the heading that they give you, lets say off of 9L, Rwy heading, 100, 115, 130, 170, whatever they tell you. If you pop an engine then you do what's in the Airport analysis or the fly the DP.

 

[svcta]

Rogue, you're absolutely right. Back to the scotch....

 

[mckpickle]

The only time to use a Departure Procedure is when the airport is IFR (or below minima dictated by the Procedure), and you have not recieved any particular initial assignment on receipt of your IFR clearance. Usually this happens with the tower closed. Issuing authority will say:
"cleared as filed, maintain 3000, contact me when airborne, void if not off by 12:34" In that case you are to fly the obstacle departure procedure. If they assign a heading, that negates the need to fly the procedure.

If you happen to lose an engine: the ONLY procedure to fly is what is described in the Airport Analysis manual. If none, go straight out. Y'all should know this stuff...

Hu? Not true, if given a DP in the clearence you fly the DP. If tower assigns a different heading than you fly that one but a departure procedure has nothing to do with the airport being IFR. Try flying out of DTW EWR ORD or LGA without following the DP just because the airport isn't IFR. Really try it!!! Tracon will LOVE YA!!!

 

[e120pilot]

mcpickle is correct. I don't know where people get the idea that you don't need to fly a DP just because it isn't IMC. If you haven't been given other instructions, ATC expects you to fly that procedure. The actual weather has no bearing on how you fly on an IFR flight plan (other than being able to take visuals, etc). Obviously, if tower gives you a heading, they are assuming responsibility for terrain seperation, and you should follow their instructions.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Hu? Not true, if given a DP in the clearence you fly the DP. If tower assigns a different heading than you fly that one but a departure procedure has nothing to do with the airport being IFR. Try flying out of DTW EWR ORD or LGA without following the DP just because the airport isn't IFR. Really try it!!! Tracon will LOVE YA!!!

Get your facts straight before you start posting. The original question was inquiring about the departure procedure on the back of the 10-9 page. It's an obstacle clearance procedure that does NOT need to be flown in VMC conditions or if weather conditions will allow you to remain clear of terrain and obsatcles, and the procedure does not have weather minima. DP's are the former SIDs and are a completely different topic alltogether. Thanks for the opinion though...

 

[Oakum_Boy]

mcpickle is correct. I don't know where people get the idea that you don't need to fly a DP just because it isn't IMC. If you haven't been given other instructions, ATC expects you to fly that procedure. The actual weather has no bearing on how you fly on an IFR flight plan (other than being able to take visuals, etc). Obviously, if tower gives you a heading, they are assuming responsibility for terrain seperation, and you should follow their instructions.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. Do not take this advice.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

AIM 5-2-6

paragraph c.

'Who is responsible for obstacle clearance? DP's are designed so that adherance to the procedure by the pilot will ensure obstacle protection.
1. Obstacle clearance responsibility also rests with the pilot when he chooses to climb in visual conditions in lieu of flying a DP and/or depart under increased takeoff minima rather than fly the DP.
2. ATC may assume responsibility for obstacle clearance by vectoring the aircraft prior to minimum vectoring altitude by using a diverse vector area (DVA). The DVA has been assessed for departures which do not follow a specific ground track. ATC may also vector an aircraft off a previously assigned DP.'

So, morals of the story:

1. When ATC assigns a heading, you are to fly that heading regardless of what is on the back of the 10-9 page.

2. If the airport is IMC, or a night when you cannot safely guarantee the visual clearance of obstacles, or the obstacle DP requires certain minima; AND the controller has not assigned a heading to fly, or a [SID]- you ARE to follow the DP on the reverse of the 10-9 page unless you feel lucky.

3. DP's or SID's which are used at busy airports are NOT to be flown, in ANY case if they are not assigned.

Everybody clear?

 

[Ty Webb]

Runway Obstacle Departure = runway specific info on back of the 10-9

DP = former SID

The Runway Obstacle DP is for IMC operations in the absence of other instructions by ATC (such as "runway heading").

As someone else mentioned, in the event of an engine failure, fly your runway analysis info- that's what will give you your second segment protection.

Gotta have more cowbell.

 

[Rogue5]

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. Do not take this advice.

Ease down there guy. Some of us have been known to occasionally be in error.

Ty: thanks for drawing the distinction b/w an Obstacle DP (back of 10-9) and a "SID" DP. This, I think, was the root of the misunderstanding.

Deep breath... Everyone hold hands.

 

[e120pilot]

Oakum, settle down fella.

I agree and disagree with you. You aren't required to do the DP on the 10-9 page, but unless you state otherwise, that's what ATC expects you to do. This is not usually an issue, since other instructions are usually obtained. However, I can assure you if you're flying into a mountainous airport, ATC will most certainly expect you to fly that route. Otherwise, how will ATC know what you're doing if you're at a non-radar, uncontrolled airport? If you can maintain visual terrain seperation, then just let ATC know that you will be doing that.

Think about this as it will apply from a non-towered, uncontrolled airport. You pick up your clearance from center, and it's "cleared as filed". The route most likely will begin at XYZ VOR, and follow an airway to your next fix. The DP is designed to take you from the runway to XYZ VOR. If you don't folllow the DP, ATC will have no idea what your initial route of flight is (ie-how you will get on course). This becomes a problem if there are inbound IFR aircraft waiting to get into that airport. In most of the country this is a non-issue, but it becomes a huge deal at mountainous airports out west. I speak from experience when I tell you that you will receive an ear full from center if you just blast off and join a course without telling center your plans.

The moral of the story is, you can disregard a obstacle DP and maintain your own terrain seperation, but let ATC know what you're doing. Ask a controller from Salt Lake Center what they expect from IFR aircraft coming out of say....Butte, Montana, and I guarantee they'll tell you exactly what I'm saying.

You may or may not agree with my position on this one, but having spent a considerable amount of time flying into places like this, you may want to ask the controller before you start diregarding the back of a 10-9 page.

 

[MetroSheriff]

Hey Oakum,

Don't let your message get lost because of the delivery. A little less confrontation and condescension in your tone would help get you thought home a bit smoother.

Even if your right, no one wants to listen to a know if you talk down to 'em.

Savvy?

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Hey Oakum,

Don't let your message get lost because of the delivery. A little less confrontation and condescension in your tone would help get you thought home a bit smoother.

Even if your right, no one wants to listen to a know if you talk down to 'em.

Savvy?

Well, I'm just tired of asking FO's about any special engine failure procedures, and they quote whatever is on the 10-9 page. That is totally wrong, and scary becuase I don't know how many captains have bought into it. It's been a pretty regular thing, and I wish I knew why that is. Sorry to all for the condescension. Later-

 

[MetroSheriff]

Well, I'm just tired of asking FO's about any special engine failure procedures, and they quote whatever is on the 10-9 page. That is totally wrong, and scary becuase I don't know how many captains have bought into it. It's been a pretty regular thing, and I wish I knew why that is. Sorry to all for the condescension. Later-

If that is the case then you need to let the Training Dept know. Not to rat on folks but to fix a systemic problem.

If you see F/Os, or Captains for that matter, that are routinely making the same mistakes it may indicate a short coming in the training program. If there are lots of folks going thru training with a lack of knowledge about departure performance/planning, the TD needs to know so that they can place more emphasis on it in the training cycle.

Bemoaning your F/Os lack of understanding of IFR Departure procedures here on the FlightInfo Boards is interesting but does little to prevent a potential incident/accident.