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Departure Procedure Question

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Oakum_Boy said:
The only time to use a Departure Procedure is when the airport is IFR (or below minima dictated by the Procedure), and you have not recieved any particular initial assignment on receipt of your IFR clearance. Usually this happens with the tower closed. Issuing authority will say:
"cleared as filed, maintain 3000, contact me when airborne, void if not off by 12:34" In that case you are to fly the obstacle departure procedure. If they assign a heading, that negates the need to fly the procedure.

If you happen to lose an engine: the ONLY procedure to fly is what is described in the Airport Analysis manual. If none, go straight out. Y'all should know this stuff...

Hu? Not true, if given a DP in the clearence you fly the DP. If tower assigns a different heading than you fly that one but a departure procedure has nothing to do with the airport being IFR. Try flying out of DTW EWR ORD or LGA without following the DP just because the airport isn't IFR. Really try it!!! Tracon will LOVE YA!!! :D
 
mcpickle is correct. I don't know where people get the idea that you don't need to fly a DP just because it isn't IMC. If you haven't been given other instructions, ATC expects you to fly that procedure. The actual weather has no bearing on how you fly on an IFR flight plan (other than being able to take visuals, etc). Obviously, if tower gives you a heading, they are assuming responsibility for terrain seperation, and you should follow their instructions.
 
mckpickle said:
Hu? Not true, if given a DP in the clearence you fly the DP. If tower assigns a different heading than you fly that one but a departure procedure has nothing to do with the airport being IFR. Try flying out of DTW EWR ORD or LGA without following the DP just because the airport isn't IFR. Really try it!!! Tracon will LOVE YA!!! :D
Get your facts straight before you start posting. The original question was inquiring about the departure procedure on the back of the 10-9 page. It's an obstacle clearance procedure that does NOT need to be flown in VMC conditions or if weather conditions will allow you to remain clear of terrain and obsatcles, and the procedure does not have weather minima. DP's are the former SIDs and are a completely different topic alltogether. Thanks for the opinion though...
 
e120pilot said:
mcpickle is correct. I don't know where people get the idea that you don't need to fly a DP just because it isn't IMC. If you haven't been given other instructions, ATC expects you to fly that procedure. The actual weather has no bearing on how you fly on an IFR flight plan (other than being able to take visuals, etc). Obviously, if tower gives you a heading, they are assuming responsibility for terrain seperation, and you should follow their instructions.
Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. Do not take this advice.
 
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AIM 5-2-6

paragraph c.

'Who is responsible for obstacle clearance? DP's are designed so that adherance to the procedure by the pilot will ensure obstacle protection.
1. Obstacle clearance responsibility also rests with the pilot when he chooses to climb in visual conditions in lieu of flying a DP and/or depart under increased takeoff minima rather than fly the DP.
2. ATC may assume responsibility for obstacle clearance by vectoring the aircraft prior to minimum vectoring altitude by using a diverse vector area (DVA). The DVA has been assessed for departures which do not follow a specific ground track. ATC may also vector an aircraft off a previously assigned DP.'

So, morals of the story:

1. When ATC assigns a heading, you are to fly that heading regardless of what is on the back of the 10-9 page.

2. If the airport is IMC, or a night when you cannot safely guarantee the visual clearance of obstacles, or the obstacle DP requires certain minima; AND the controller has not assigned a heading to fly, or a [SID]- you ARE to follow the DP on the reverse of the 10-9 page unless you feel lucky.

3. DP's or SID's which are used at busy airports are NOT to be flown, in ANY case if they are not assigned.

Everybody clear?
 
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Runway Obstacle Departure = runway specific info on back of the 10-9

DP = former SID

The Runway Obstacle DP is for IMC operations in the absence of other instructions by ATC (such as "runway heading").

As someone else mentioned, in the event of an engine failure, fly your runway analysis info- that's what will give you your second segment protection.

Gotta have more cowbell.
 
Oakum_Boy said:
Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. Do not take this advice.
Ease down there guy. Some of us have been known to occasionally be in error.

Ty: thanks for drawing the distinction b/w an Obstacle DP (back of 10-9) and a "SID" DP. This, I think, was the root of the misunderstanding.

Deep breath... Everyone hold hands.
 
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Oakum, settle down fella.

I agree and disagree with you. You aren't required to do the DP on the 10-9 page, but unless you state otherwise, that's what ATC expects you to do. This is not usually an issue, since other instructions are usually obtained. However, I can assure you if you're flying into a mountainous airport, ATC will most certainly expect you to fly that route. Otherwise, how will ATC know what you're doing if you're at a non-radar, uncontrolled airport? If you can maintain visual terrain seperation, then just let ATC know that you will be doing that.

Think about this as it will apply from a non-towered, uncontrolled airport. You pick up your clearance from center, and it's "cleared as filed". The route most likely will begin at XYZ VOR, and follow an airway to your next fix. The DP is designed to take you from the runway to XYZ VOR. If you don't folllow the DP, ATC will have no idea what your initial route of flight is (ie-how you will get on course). This becomes a problem if there are inbound IFR aircraft waiting to get into that airport. In most of the country this is a non-issue, but it becomes a huge deal at mountainous airports out west. I speak from experience when I tell you that you will receive an ear full from center if you just blast off and join a course without telling center your plans.

The moral of the story is, you can disregard a obstacle DP and maintain your own terrain seperation, but let ATC know what you're doing. Ask a controller from Salt Lake Center what they expect from IFR aircraft coming out of say....Butte, Montana, and I guarantee they'll tell you exactly what I'm saying.

You may or may not agree with my position on this one, but having spent a considerable amount of time flying into places like this, you may want to ask the controller before you start diregarding the back of a 10-9 page.
 
Hey Oakum,

Don't let your message get lost because of the delivery. A little less confrontation and condescension in your tone would help get you thought home a bit smoother.

Even if your right, no one wants to listen to a know if you talk down to 'em.

Savvy?
 
MetroSheriff said:
Hey Oakum,

Don't let your message get lost because of the delivery. A little less confrontation and condescension in your tone would help get you thought home a bit smoother.

Even if your right, no one wants to listen to a know if you talk down to 'em.

Savvy?
Well, I'm just tired of asking FO's about any special engine failure procedures, and they quote whatever is on the 10-9 page. That is totally wrong, and scary becuase I don't know how many captains have bought into it. It's been a pretty regular thing, and I wish I knew why that is. Sorry to all for the condescension. Later-
 
Oakum_Boy said:
Well, I'm just tired of asking FO's about any special engine failure procedures, and they quote whatever is on the 10-9 page. That is totally wrong, and scary becuase I don't know how many captains have bought into it. It's been a pretty regular thing, and I wish I knew why that is. Sorry to all for the condescension. Later-
If that is the case then you need to let the Training Dept know. Not to rat on folks but to fix a systemic problem.

If you see F/Os, or Captains for that matter, that are routinely making the same mistakes it may indicate a short coming in the training program. If there are lots of folks going thru training with a lack of knowledge about departure performance/planning, the TD needs to know so that they can place more emphasis on it in the training cycle.

Bemoaning your F/Os lack of understanding of IFR Departure procedures here on the FlightInfo Boards is interesting but does little to prevent a potential incident/accident.
 

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