Denied Jumpseat!

[Boeingman]

To discriminate....???!!!
Glad I'm not flying with you.

You're not that dense are you? Wait, I think I already know the answer.

 

[Palerider957]

I agree with the above--Captains discretion. (Period). The other question needs to be answered, was this a jumpseat IN the cockpit, or was it in the cabin??

There was no reason to deny someone a ride in back, but I understand the extreme sensitivity of letting someone of the flight deck.

I agree with Boeingman that the jumpseat is not a place for political correctness. I must admit I feel badly for the original poster, I'm sorry you had to endure that.

 

[TonyC]

Perhaps, but we are only hearing one side of the story. Besides, judgement has nothing to do with who is the final, sole and only person involved in making the ultimate decision.

Like I said, you're treading on very dangerous ground interjecting political correctness parameters with the Captains discretion and authority.

I absolutely agree - - Captain is the Captain is the Captain.

The problem is the fine line between being the Captain with absolute authority, and being an emissary of the Airline. When he opens the cockpit door and allows others to hear what he says, he's not only speaking for himself, he's speaking for the airline. And when the airline discriminates on the basis of race, the airline gets in trouble.



What the Captain SHOULD have said was - - "NO, I'm sorry, I do not want you to ride in my cockpit." PERIOD. End of Story. He might deny it because he doesn't like the way he parts his hair, or because it's the 2nd Monday after Easter, or because he didn't like his horoscope that morning - - doesn't matter. What matters is when he verbalizes to others something that is considered to be illegal in any other setting.




Dizel8, Palerider957 - - read the first post, first sentence - - it was a COCKPIT JUMPSEAT. islandhoper states " I went to Airline "X", where we are in the system and jumpseat in the cockpit. " [Emphasis added]

 

[capt. megadeth]

I agree with TonyC on both posts 100%. Mar - good point

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

A few clarifications, please

Islandhopper:

You stated that the Captain doesn't like Jumpseaters in the cockpit. As far as I know you have to be on the seniority list of the airline to ride in the cockpit or maybe a codeshare partner that can be verified in their computer system.

It sounds to me that you don't work for airline "X". Did all the seats in the back fill up? Were you trying to ride physically in the jumpseat with your friend?, etc?

Let it go and move on. There may have been other circumstances that aren't personal. I have had some Captains only offer the JS for a seat in the back, even before 911.

 

[100LL... Again!]

Two words:

Jumpseat Committee.

My impression is that he essentially lied - told you that your paperwork didn't check out.

I would write it up.

If he has a 'problem' with jumpseaters, maybe a chat with someone from the committee would straighten him out.

Captain's authority is an important issue. However, some people have a nearly pathological need to express it. Self ego-stroking insome cases. I wasn't there, but IMHO it sounds like this individual had a reputation.

 

[TonyC]

Two words:

Jumpseat Committee.

My impression is that he essentially lied - told you that your paperwork didn't check out.

I would write it up.

If he has a 'problem' with jumpseaters, maybe a chat with someone from the committee would straighten him out.

I'm embarrassed that Jumpseat Committee never occurred to me. Excellent idea.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Do you work for Gulfstream?

That might explain it.

But this is not a civil rights issue. The Captain is not an employer, not a government official and you have no "right" to the jumpseat.

The jumpseat is a benefit, negotiated by the pilots of the airline you were flying.

That having been said, the Captain's concern might have been triggered by the fact there was more than one pilot who knew eachother and who apparently did not have credentials from an airline he sees everyday.

Admittedly, I get nervous when we have 135 / 121 folks coming forward for a jumpseat when I do not recognize their carrier. A few days ago I had a guy come forward with a beard, who the gate had ticketed, but he was a helicopter pilot going to work on an oil platform. I also see a few private pilots who figure they will try out the system and see how far they get and a bunch of 135 and 91 fractional guys trying to jumpseat. ( No, I don't care if you do fly "The Donald" in a 727 )

Of course the strangest jumpseaters always come forward when you are 3 mintues from scheduled departure and your cell phone battery is dead....

So, my take on this is that it is unfortunate that you felt you were unfairly scrutinized - but - a jumpseat is a gift from a stranger. Say thank you when you get it and say thanks anyway when you don't.

~~~^~~~

 

[dh82dvr]

If you have a valid licence and company ID and you are let out to the plane by the gate you ride on my plane. I would keep his name somewhere. What goes around come around and you never know when he might look for a ride on your plane.

 

[Boeingman]

What matters is when he verbalizes to others something that is considered to be illegal in any other setting.

"in any other setting". You just confirmed what I am trying to say.

Like I said before, there are 2 sides to any story. Any questioning or dillution of the concept the PIC being the final authority is a dangerous precedent.

It becomes even more impractical when the political correctness police force their beliefs for real and/or percieved injustices. They may try to influence or put pressure on a choice said PIC must make that ultimatly may not even be an actual factor in a denial.

Sorry, I draw a very distinct line in the sand on this issue.

 

[TWA Dude]

But two foreign nationals on the flight deck? No way.

Sad, just sad: the Captain for denying jumpseats to two airline pilots just because they're foreigners and you for agreeing with him. Security concerns? Horsecookies! It's just an excuse to cover irrational fears.

Just because that captain exercised his rightful authority doesn't mean he was right.

Sad.

 

[Andy]

Security concerns? Horsecookies! It's just an excuse to cover irrational fears.

You're absolutely right, TWADude. Thanks for straightening me out. It's just irrational fears on my part.
Hmmm. I wonder how LeRoy Homer (yes, I knew him) would respond in this situation. What do you figure that he was thinking as the terrorists crashed flt 93 into the WTC? Oh yeah, he wasn't thinking ... they slashed his throat and he bled to death prior to impact. I wonder what his last thoughts were ... of his wife Melodie and daughter Laurel, or 'I should've listened to my irrational fears and not opened the cockpit door?'

Tell ya what, how about you ease my irrational fears by contributing to the foundation set up by LeRoy's widow Melodie. Here's the website: http://www.leroywhomer.com

 

[zonker]

I must be missing something. Were you trying to get on the cockpit jumpseat or ride in the cabin. Is there an agreement between your carriers, and what are those carriers or at least yours?

I'm not getting this either.

You were trying to ride in the cabin, right? Offline jumpseaters are not allowed in the cockpit any longer.

 

[Singlecoil]

I'm not getting this either.

You were trying to ride in the cabin, right? Offline jumpseaters are not allowed in the cockpit any longer.

Not true. You merely have to have an approved method to verify employment. Alaska, Horizon, Northwest, Penair, and ERA can all jumpseat on Alaska in the cockpit.

 

[zonker]

Not true. You merely have to have an approved method to verify employment. Alaska, Horizon, Northwest, Penair, and ERA can all jumpseat on Alaska in the cockpit.

Ahh..

Didn't realize that. Thanks.

 

[T-Gates]

They worked for a company that is approved for cockpit jumpseating on thier codeshare airline. (Who they were jumpseating on) Their employment was verified electronically by the gate agents and by the Captain. All the appropriate measures were taken to verify employment. I think that point has been lost in this thread.

I agree completely with Captain's authority, but as the Captain I would have handled it very differently if I were nervous. It's the Captain's jumpseat. If he doesn't want it filled, thats his choice. It's just a fact. Islandhopper handled it just the way he should have. Get off, thank the crew and try the next one.

 

[ivauir]

who are immigrants from foreign countries

As opposed to immigrants (SIC) from domestic countries?

Sounds like you handled it with class if paperwork needs to be done let the FAs do it.

Of course junmpseat ain't a right and common sense is rare ... Where in Equador are you from? It is one of my favorite countries, expecailly Quito .... ah sweet memories of club NO and Pappillon ...

 

[TWA Dude]

You're absolutely right, TWADude. Thanks for straightening me out. It's just irrational fears on my part.

Sorry about the death of your friend/acquaintance.

Exactly what does a group of hijacking passengers have to do with legitimate pilots gaining legitimate access to the the cockpit jumpseat? There's a big difference between rational fears and irrational fears. What happened on 9/11 does not justify fear of all foreigners. In the months immediately following 9/11 many passengers were wrongly denied boarding because they "didn't look right". Now that the acute fear stage has abated that isn't happening anymore. We have anti-discrimination laws in this country to prevent arbitrary and/or egregiously poor treatment of any particular group.

If you'll look on a major airline's seniority list you'll see many pilots with Arab-sounding names. Are we to be frightened to ride on their flights? According to your logic one just can't be too careful, can we? Where does one draw the line? The captain in question in this thread had no factual reason to be concerned about the two jumpseaters. As any pilot will say gut feelings can be valuable but paranoia by definition is irrational. This captain is an embarrasment.

Sad, just sad.

 

[islandhoper]

Just to clarify, since it became such a long thread: It was a cockpit jumpseat. Yes, we are approved for it. ID's have the same design and come from the same office. Our employee numbers are in the system making employment verification a 5sec deal.
We were both in shirts and ties. (Just out of Air-inc conference)


I agree with the concept of PIC and final authority. I also believe strongly in keeping politics out of the cockpit. The members defending this side have a very strong point. However, TonyC has expressed my feelings far better than I ever could. When you represent an airline and its employees you have to reflect correctness and professionalism. You have to be very careful with what you say and the way you act. I expect irrational fear and reactions only from untrained, ignorant people; not professionals.

It has been rewarding to see different points of view. As someone stated, "there is only one side of the story here".
I respect those that understand the dilema regardless the side they choose. However those who's reaction is just plain indolence, don't seem to understand the core of the problem and need to be educated.

If you allow discrimination today, you not only become part of it, but you accept the fact that you could be on the receiving end tomorrow.


Thanks

Islandhoper