DELTA vs SWA from another thread....

[Howard Hughes]

Just thought I would post my response to this question from the regional thread FYI. Not looking to get into a pissing contest with SWA guys. You have a niche in the industry and have a good pay scale. What I write are my personal tastes and opinions only so dont take it as a personal attack. With that said.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rank&File
O.K., I have job offers from Southwest AND Delta. What a predicament!! For one, I could care less where I'm based; I'll be a commuter for life. Two, Southwest guys aren't reqired to wear hats. I like that a lot about them.

I've done lots of research on both. Seriously, it's gonna be hard to turn down either one of them. I've wanted to be a Delta pilot since I was five years old but times have changed. I never thought I'd ask anyone this question: would you take Southwest over Delta?


Well, Ive done my fair share of flying, cargo to regionals to majors. Got friends spread throughout the industry. In my view the only reason I could recommend going to SWA over Delta right this second is for the money. Having said that, mark my words, Delta WILL pay more than SWA by a margin in the coming years. Delta rates are bottomed out right now (and SWA's rates relative to the rest of the industry are flying higher than they ever have by a large margin...this wont last). Delta's rates will come back up along with others which historically have always been much higher than SWA's. Maybe SWA will continue to pay more for flying a 73 than Delta but in my opinion there is little to no chance that if you go to Delta you will make less flying a 787 or 777 than at SWA flying a 737 (although you will have temporary increased earnings with the quicker upgrade on a 737 at SWA). Delta projects a 1.4 billion dollar operating profit next year and almost 2 billion the following year.

Some see hiring on at Delta a risk, citing the 911 spurred bankruptcy and furloughes. It is a risk, and nothing guarantees that Delta will return to king of the mountain or that you wont get furloughed in the future. There will never be any guarantees in this business. Historically choosing the top dog at any given time rarely guaranteed you would stay at the top. The fact there is some risk may make this a more oppertune time to go to Delta with chances for post BK growth and being in a nimble position with lower opperating costs. When its a sure thing everybodies wish list will once again change (ie top three DAL, UPS, FEDex) then it will be a real feeding frenzy and if you arent flying for the Blue Angels or Thunderbirds or something very special on your resume (3000 hours of RJ PIC doesnt count...that's a dime a dozen now) you will be waiting a long time for a chance at the "brass ring". SWA has been stable for a long time but I see alot of question marks coming up there recently. They are 100 percent domestic. The domestic market has reached its saturation point and now with the likes of Virgin America, SkyBus...etc it will be harder for SWA to do what they used to do with ease when the legacies were charging a whole lot of money for domestic routes. That is not the case anymore. In my opinion aircraft deliveries at SWA will be further slowed and upgrade times extended by a few years. The domestic market is driven mostly by price now, ironicaly SWA did more to influence this than any other airline. Now with the Ultra Low Cost carriers moving into town differentiation becomes more paramount (ie TV/Movies/Music/Games/Computer plugins/Etc) Southwest is falling behind in this arena. Once again, Ironicaly in the comming years if SWA doesnt do some things differently their profits could be harmed by their second generation children.

I can tell you that after flying for more than a few years the idea of domestic only can get boring. Current/former RJ drivers know this as well as anyone...It can at times seem like you are living on the set of Groundhog Day (reference Bill Murray) going to the same hotel for the hundredth time. Waking up in South America or Europe on the other hand, exploring a good layover with your family or crew is one of the great perks of being an airline pilot. With Delta's push for international (Asia and beyond along with lots of Europe already) there are going to be alot of really great places to see and IMHO decent money (not as high as it once was, but it will be good) to be made. To each his own though. If I'm a guy looking to do this another 20 to 30 years I could never do SWA, although I think they are a fine company and have some interesting history and have been able to call some of the shots the last few years. Having said that you could do much worse than SWA of course. Food for thought....take it for what its worth.

Another note of interest...a new hire on the property right now at Delta and in the coming months has a decent chance of getting the 767ER out of NY immediately, flying to a lot of beautiful and interesting cities in Europe this year. A friend of mine told me there are several open slots on the current bid because not everyone wants NY, preferring LAX, SLC, and ATL first.

My final advice, go somewhere you will enjoy the flying and figure out a side business that you enjoy. I have a friend at Delta that does just that. He gives away alot of his flying to free up about 20 days a month, has good overall compensation and keeps his foot in flying with ability to fly some really great cutting edge equipment and destinations in the future....really the best of all worlds.

 

[328dude]

Well thought out post. No offense taken, just to each his own on what he wants to do. I hope Delta payscales will rise and I'm sure they will in the future.

Here's a question though. Just out of curiosity, on those long Asia trips, isn't there a relief crew that needs to go along as well? If so, how many landings or takeoffs would a new hire expect to get a month if they do the long overseas stuff. This is not a slam, just curious about how much sitting and observing is going on, versus disconnecting the autopilot and flying the thing.

 

[airksk]

Well thought out post. No offense taken, just to each his own on what he wants to do. I hope Delta payscales will rise and I'm sure they will in the future.

Here's a question though. Just out of curiosity, on those long Asia trips, isn't there a relief crew that needs to go along as well? If so, how many landings or takeoffs would a new hire expect to get a month if they do the long overseas stuff. This is not a slam, just curious about how much sitting and observing is going on, versus disconnecting the autopilot and flying the thing.

What difference does it make?

Granted, I like flying the 737, but it sure doesn't hurt my feelings if I'm not the one landing the airplane. I get paid the same regardless of how many landings I log every month.

 

[Howard Hughes]

Well thought out post. No offense taken, just to each his own on what he wants to do. I hope Delta payscales will rise and I'm sure they will in the future.

Here's a question though. Just out of curiosity, on those long Asia trips, isn't there a relief crew that needs to go along as well? If so, how many landings or takeoffs would a new hire expect to get a month if they do the long overseas stuff. This is not a slam, just curious about how much sitting and observing is going on, versus disconnecting the autopilot and flying the thing.

Thats a good point and it's something that is being taken into consideration from what I have heard. This is one primary reason new hires are still being required to fly domesticaly for a little while before taking the controls flying long haul international. They need a chance to make more landings and learn the Delta proceedures/system. I am not the authority on long haul but will ask some friends that do it regularly. Perhaps someone on this board can post how the relief crew works at Delta. I do know the long haul airplanes at Delta are all getting what they call a "condo" which is a comfortable and quiet sleeping quarters.

 

[General Lee]

Well thought out post. No offense taken, just to each his own on what he wants to do. I hope Delta payscales will rise and I'm sure they will in the future.

Here's a question though. Just out of curiosity, on those long Asia trips, isn't there a relief crew that needs to go along as well? If so, how many landings or takeoffs would a new hire expect to get a month if they do the long overseas stuff. This is not a slam, just curious about how much sitting and observing is going on, versus disconnecting the autopilot and flying the thing.

If you are a 777 pilot, you will not get very many landings. There is a 2 day trip with 2 landings that goes ATL--LAX (24 hour layover) and back to ATL for 2 pilots, so that would be it for extra landings. On the ultra long haul flights there are 2 crews (2 captains and 2 fos) and logically you can expect both captains to get the 2 landings. But, we now have to follow a policy to keep people out of the sim, so the guy in charge does have to ask who NEEDS a landing. Also, those ultra long flights (BOM--JFK, DXB--ATL, ATL-ICN) all have a crew rest facility above first class, and it is really nice, with seperate bunks and 2 first class seats also. It is amazing there is space up there. Actually all of the 777s have that facility, and rumors abound that we could be adding a lot more 777s in the next few years.

If you are on the 767ER (757 and 767 INTL) in ATL, you have a choice of long legs (to Europe or South America) and also short trips--day turns to Guatemala City, 2 day to Bogota, 3 day to Quito and Guayaquil, 2 day to Panama City, 2 day to San Jose Costa Rica, 2 day to Aruba (24 hour layover), etc.... So, you can use PBS to add a couple of those each month to make sure you get a couple or more landings. If you are NYC 767ER based. there are only flights to Europe, and there are 3 crew members for 2 landings. But, we will soon be adding 15 757-200ERs to JFK to fly to Western Europe (according to the press releases), and some of those may be 2 pilots only trips. We already fly 2 man trips on the NYC 76ER to London Gatwick, Shannon and Dublin, and Manchester (some of those are on the 764). Flying the future 757ER in JFK would give you some landings, plus a first class meal, plus a day in Ireland. Not bad.

It is all about options. Delta gives you the choice of flying domestic, flying a Shuttle and living in BOS/DCA and being home every night, or flying INTL flying that includes Hawaii. You can also fly turns, or day trips if you are senior, on all of the equipment. Are there any day trips or turns at Southwest? You could be home every night, and as I said each plane has their share of turns. The MD88 for example does them from ATL to St. Croix and back, for 7 hours and 45 mins for the day. The 738 does some that are worth 10 hours --fly one leg to Antigua from ATL and dead head back. Pretty nice and you don't have to do many of those each month to be done. The 757 domestic does some to St Thomas, San Juan, and Phoenix from ATL.

The pay will eventually come back up too. Things are looking better here and there will be growth ahead, which means upgrades too. I am watching for the 738 left seat......(then 757/767, 787, 777 etc)


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[CaptAntoineMack]

Delta rates are bottomed out right now (and SWA's rates relative to the rest of the industry are flying higher than they ever have by a large margin...this wont last).

This is not true. Higher...yes. By a large margin.....no. Here is the history.

Taking cost of living into consideration, SWA rates are 8% higher than they were in 1994. They are only 3% higher than 1985 rates.

This is a fact.

 

[AA717driver]

I don't believe SWA will continue to expand. Upgrades will slow. Delta has already shed a lot of senior pilots but won't be expanding enough for a quick upgrade.

I would prefer the culture at SWA (work hard, play harder) to the staid, old Legacy atmosphere. (Yes, GL, I do know people at Delta...)

Flying the same airplane domestically gets old. Flying international gets old quicker.

While no one can predict future financials, Delta is running on predictions made to exit Ch.11. Ask UAL how their predictions are working out. SWA seems to be on the verge of having to confront a weakening of their financial position.

Interesting situation. Good luck with your decision. TC

 

[General Lee]

I don't believe SWA will continue to expand. Upgrades will slow. Delta has already shed a lot of senior pilots but won't be expanding enough for a quick upgrade.

I would prefer the culture at SWA (work hard, play harder) to the staid, old Legacy atmosphere. (Yes, GL, I do know people at Delta...)

Flying the same airplane domestically gets old. Flying international gets old quicker.

While no one can predict future financials, Delta is running on predictions made to exit Ch.11. Ask UAL how their predictions are working out. SWA seems to be on the verge of having to confront a weakening of their financial position.

Interesting situation. Good luck with your decision. TC

I would have to say that after our "Keep Delta, My Delta" campaign, our atmosphere is better than most legacy carriers. We are all over joyed that USAir did not aquire us, and we all know things are getting better. We don't sing Kumbaya together (like SWA?), but we are in a happier place.

Flying domestically 5-6 leg days can get really old quick (like the Delta Shuttle---those guys do it to be home everynight in DC or BOS). Thank gawd we can bid something else that gives us 4 leg 4 day trips etc, or maybe over to INTL and try that for awhile, and then bid back to domestic if WE CHOOSE. There you have it, the difference, CHOICE---in aircraft and trips etc. You can't say that about SWA. Sorry.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[jball2]

It's all about the overnight. The destination does not matter. Ask any SWA crew!

 

[GuppyWN]

This is not true. Higher...yes. By a large margin.....no. Here is the history.

Taking cost of living into consideration, SWA rates are 8% higher than they were in 1994. They are only 3% higher than 1985 rates.

This is a fact.

Where do the current vs. 1994 Delta rates fall when cost of living adjustments are made?

Gup

 

[SWA/FO]

Delta WILL pay more than SWA by a margin in the coming years

............if they stay in business.

Delta will be tops in everything, should take ALPA not more then 18 months to get it all back. Quicker if the Delta Pilots get off all fours and tell the Kompany kernals & Kommanders to get off thier backs.

Must be hard to fly even one leg with someone pounding on your backside like that, all this while they take money out of your wallet. :cartman: Oh the shame...

the SWA/FO imp:

 

[Jetsetter]

My god, I feel real sorry for all the SWA pilots that have to fly with you.

What a class act you are....."if Delta stays in business"

Now go F***K yourself SWA FO..

 

[GogglesPisano]

It's all about the overnight. The destination does not matter. !

Unless you're at a sidewalk cafe in Europe or laying on Waikiki Beach with your crew.

Don't kid yourself, international flying wins hands down.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

SWA has always had the most competitive rates for flying, either they go down or the industry comes up. In my opinion, the rates at SW will likely freeze until the rest of industry matches it. SW used to have more productive pilots flying more hours for less money in the 80's and 90's. Today the major pilots work the same as SW pilots at less pay. It's economy 101 that you can sustain that rate in this type of market.

 

[Ralph Wiggums]

Some see hiring on at Delta a risk, citing the 911 spurred bankruptcy and furloughes. It is a risk, and nothing guarantees that Delta will return to king of the mountain or that you wont get furloughed in the future. There will never be any guarantees in this business. Historically choosing the top dog at any given time rarely guaranteed you would stay at the top. The fact there is some risk may make this a more oppertune time to go to Delta with chances for post BK growth and being in a nimble position with lower opperating costs. When its a sure thing everybodies wish list will once again change (ie top three DAL, UPS, FEDex) then it will be a real feeding frenzy and if you arent flying for the Blue Angels or Thunderbirds or something very special on your resume (3000 hours of RJ PIC doesnt count...that's a dime a dozen now) you will be waiting a long time for a chance at the "brass ring". SWA has been stable for a long time but I see alot of question marks coming up there recently. They are 100 percent domestic. The domestic market has reached its saturation point and now with the likes of Virgin America, SkyBus...etc it will be harder for SWA to do what they used to do with ease when the legacies were charging a whole lot of money for domestic routes. That is not the case anymore. In my opinion aircraft deliveries at SWA will be further slowed and upgrade times extended by a few years. The domestic market is driven mostly by price now, ironicaly SWA did more to influence this than any other airline. Now with the Ultra Low Cost carriers moving into town differentiation becomes more paramount (ie TV/Movies/Music/Games/Computer plugins/Etc) Southwest is falling behind in this arena. Once again, Ironicaly in the comming years if SWA doesnt do some things differently their profits could be harmed by their second generation children.

I can tell you that after flying for more than a few years the idea of domestic only can get boring. Current/former RJ drivers know this as well as anyone...It can at times seem like you are living on the set of Groundhog Day (reference Bill Murray) going to the same hotel for the hundredth time. Waking up in South America or Europe on the other hand, exploring a good layover with your family or crew is one of the great perks of being an airline pilot. With Delta's push for international (Asia and beyond along with lots of Europe already) there are going to be alot of really great places to see and IMHO decent money (not as high as it once was, but it will be good) to be made. To each his own though. If I'm a guy looking to do this another 20 to 30 years I could never do SWA, although I think they are a fine company and have some interesting history and have been able to call some of the shots the last few years. Having said that you could do much worse than SWA of course. Food for thought....take it for what its worth.

Another note of interest...a new hire on the property right now at Delta and in the coming months has a decent chance of getting the 767ER out of NY immediately, flying to a lot of beautiful and interesting cities in Europe this year. A friend of mine told me there are several open slots on the current bid because not everyone wants NY, preferring LAX, SLC, and ATL first.

My final advice, go somewhere you will enjoy the flying and figure out a side business that you enjoy. I have a friend at Delta that does just that. He gives away alot of his flying to free up about 20 days a month, has good overall compensation and keeps his foot in flying with ability to fly some really great cutting edge equipment and destinations in the future....really the best of all worlds.

This post makes many of the same points that General Lee tries to make in his posts, but you've done it without being a pr!ck.

Congratulations.

 

[traffic pilot]

go to delta pleeeeeeeeease!

 

[jonjuan]

Delta WILL pay more than SWA by a margin in the coming years. Delta rates are bottomed out right now (and SWA's rates relative to the rest of the industry are flying higher than they ever have by a large margin...this wont last). Delta's rates will come back up along with others which historically have always been much higher than SWA's. Maybe SWA will continue to pay more for flying a 73 than Delta but in my opinion there is little to no chance that if you go to Delta you will make less flying a 787 or 777 than at SWA flying a 737 (although you will have temporary increased earnings with the quicker upgrade on a 737 at SWA). Delta projects a 1.4 billion dollar operating profit next year and almost 2 billion the following year.

LOL......

 

[jonjuan]

The pay will eventually come back up too. Things are looking better here and there will be growth ahead,

And once again, LOL..........

 

[SWA/FO]

My god, I feel real sorry for all the SWA pilots that have to fly with you.

What a class act you are....."if Delta stays in business"

Now go F***K yourself SWA FO..

You CAPITALIZE SWA/FO and use lower case for GOD? I will repeat, if Delta stays in business they will be tops in everything. Kinda like me saying "if SWA stays in business, things will be great for the SWA/FO"

Are you that sensitive? Need some more A & D for your backside? What 5 letter word you tryin to be spelling there junior? :blush:

the SWA/FO imp:

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

The pay will eventually come back up too.

Things are looking better here and there will be growth ahead, which means upgrades too.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Pay go up? Maybe. But right now it is only wishful thinking. IMHO, not a good bet. I just caught you speeding again General. Not a fact at all.

Looking better? Absolutely. I am very happy my buds at DAL have a very good future ahead. Note that does not mean without bumps--see below.

Growth ahead? Yes. But the usual caveat remains. Growth can slow with little notice. Not something to be counted on.

You'll argue how I'm all wet General, but the economy is rapidly slowing down. Growth will be tenuous at best.