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Out Of India
Jan. 11, 2004
To many American employers, India is Nirvana. It has a stable democracy, an enormous English-speaking population, and a solid education system that each year churns out more than a million college graduates - all happy to work for a fraction of the salary of their American counterparts.
And India epitomizes the new global economy -- a country that often looks on the edge of collapse, a background of grinding poverty, visually a mess.
And yet, whether you know it or not, when you call Delta Airlines, American Express, Sprint, Citibank, IBM or Hewlett Packard's technical support number, chances are you'll be talking to an Indian. Correspondent Morley Safer reports.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"We're doing customer servicing there," says Raman Roy, chairman of Wipro Spectramind, a leading outsourcing company. He helped start the Indian call center boom in the '90s when he came up with a business plan for American companies to direct their calls to India.
Wipro had to build their own generators and their own satellite phone systems. The call centers are cool, self-sufficient islands in an uncertain sea of chaotic Indian street life. Inside, round-the-clock, they keep America on the line.
"We service the globe. We service all parts of the world irrespective of what time it is here or there," says Roy.
New Dehli is nearly 11 hours ahead of New York, so manning the phones is largely night work. By day, the agents - as they're called - are dutiful Indian sons and daughters. By night, they take on phone names such as Sean, Nancy, Ricardo and Celine so they can sound like the girl or boy next door.
"The real name is Tashar. And name I use is Terrance," says one representative.
"My real name is Sangita. And my pseudo name is Julia," says another representative. "Julia Roberts happened to be my favorite actress, so I just picked out Julia."
American movies are part of an agent's training in how to sound all-American.
Lavanya Prabhu is a call center trainer who guides young Indians through the labyrinth of American English. And she says she is able to pick up some of typical American accents while instructing her students.
"Well, you have Brooklyn. 'You walk the walk and you talk the talk.' And you have the southerner's thing. 'Oh hello, there. What can I do for you today,'" says Prabhu, who spends most of her time trying to de-Indianize her countrymen.
But it's difficult to get in. In fact, Prabhu says they accept approximately five applicants out of 100 applications.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On any given day in New Delhi and Bombay and Bangalore, the call goes out for new call center recruits as more and more American companies come calling. The call center employees earn $3,000 to $5,000 a year, in a nation where the per capita income is less than $500. The perks include free private transport to and from work plus the sheer heaven of an air-conditioned workplace.
There are few aspects of your telephonic life that do not sooner or later end up in India - from someone talking you into a new credit card, to your
attempt to return your mother-in-law's wonderful gift, to making sure you've paid that bill.
Debt collection is, as it has always been, a growth industry.
Arjun Raina, a Shakespearean actor, helps debt collectors and others trying to wheedle money out of you play the part.
"There's also a hierarchy of bill collectors. There's the sweet gentle one who's first calling in and saying, 'Just reminding you,' right? And then the toughies come in, you see? And the toughies have it quite good because the, for example, a lot of men have no problem being aggressive, right? Accent doesn't matter," says Raina. "You know, once I'm being aggressive with you, I don't have to be polite and neat. I can be tough with you, right?"
Partha Iyengar, an analyst in India for Gartner, an American research company, says this is probably the best example of globalization.
"Absolutely. We've had globalization in the manufacturing sector with the auto industry, and Japan really emerging as a major auto power. We've had globalization in the low end manufacturing industry with China emerging as a global power," says Iyengar. "But this is the first time in the knowledge industry we have globalization impacting two countries at such a large scale -- India and the U.S."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The U.S. government does not keep track of how many American jobs have gone overseas, but there are estimates that in just the last three years, as many as 400,000 jobs have gone to places like China, Russia, and India.
"The reason the companies are coming here is to really be more competitive and that cannot be bad for the U.S. economy," says Iyengar, who believes the effect of outsourcing on the Indian economy has been quite dramatic.
"There are some estimates that say that the whole outsourcing revolution, if we can call it that, will really be one of the key factors in moving India towards developed economy status."
At which time, India would probably outsource to China, for the same four reasons the U.S. outsources to India -- money, money, money and money.
What would be the savings to a multi-national company?
"You save anywhere between 30 to 50 percent," says Wipro chairman Roy.
And this is enough to dazzle even the most patriotic CEO, and so, JP Morgan Chase is hiring Indian stock analysts.
Indians also answer some of the Amazon.com's e-mail. And AOL and Dell send technical calls to India. Plus, if your doctor prescribes an MRI at Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston, it may be analyzed by a radiologist in India.
So what's left? Well, there's taxes. Last year, only a thousand U.S. tax returns were prepared in India. This year, there were 25,000.
"And next year, people are estimating that about 200,000 returns will be prepared in India," says Dave Wyle, a 31-year-old American entrepreneur who expects to make a fortune on outsourcing for U.S. accounting firms through his company, Sureprep, based in Bombay.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What makes India such a good candidate for outsourcing taxes specifically?
"The cost of the labor - it's a fraction of the cost," says Wyle. "You might be paying somebody $300 to $400 a month there that might make $3,000 to $4,000 a month or more in the United States."
Sureprep currently does work for more than 150 U.S. accounting firms, and its client list grows larger each month.
"These accounting firms range from small local firms to right now, it's about 20 of the top 100 firms including one of the national firms," says Wyle.
Those American firms scan an individual's tax documents into a computer. An Indian accountant logs on, fills out the return on his computer, and then it's printed out in the U.S., checked, signed and sent to the IRS.
But most people regard their tax returns as among the most private things they have. Is there any risk of that security being broken with tax returns flying through the ozone?
"The type of security you see in this facility is generally much more so than you would see in any U.S. accounting firm. Everything is paperless," says Wyle. "You'll notice in the facility there's no pens or papers on the desk. There's no printers in the work room. Everything's done on screen."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Young successful businessmen like Wyle and Roy no longer view the world as a place with boundaries.
"This is a global economy," says Wyle.
"Geography is history. Distances don't matter anymore," adds Roy.
But beyond the success and the money that's being made in this business, there's a terrific sense of national pride that India is making its mark in this very sophisticated way.
"There is a huge amount of nationalistic pride," says Roy. "Because we want to show that as a work force, as a labor pool, we are equivalent to, if not better than, anybody else. Anywhere in the world."
Jan. 11, 2004
To many American employers, India is Nirvana. It has a stable democracy, an enormous English-speaking population, and a solid education system that each year churns out more than a million college graduates - all happy to work for a fraction of the salary of their American counterparts.
And India epitomizes the new global economy -- a country that often looks on the edge of collapse, a background of grinding poverty, visually a mess.
And yet, whether you know it or not, when you call Delta Airlines, American Express, Sprint, Citibank, IBM or Hewlett Packard's technical support number, chances are you'll be talking to an Indian. Correspondent Morley Safer reports.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"We're doing customer servicing there," says Raman Roy, chairman of Wipro Spectramind, a leading outsourcing company. He helped start the Indian call center boom in the '90s when he came up with a business plan for American companies to direct their calls to India.
Wipro had to build their own generators and their own satellite phone systems. The call centers are cool, self-sufficient islands in an uncertain sea of chaotic Indian street life. Inside, round-the-clock, they keep America on the line.
"We service the globe. We service all parts of the world irrespective of what time it is here or there," says Roy.
New Dehli is nearly 11 hours ahead of New York, so manning the phones is largely night work. By day, the agents - as they're called - are dutiful Indian sons and daughters. By night, they take on phone names such as Sean, Nancy, Ricardo and Celine so they can sound like the girl or boy next door.
"The real name is Tashar. And name I use is Terrance," says one representative.
"My real name is Sangita. And my pseudo name is Julia," says another representative. "Julia Roberts happened to be my favorite actress, so I just picked out Julia."
American movies are part of an agent's training in how to sound all-American.
Lavanya Prabhu is a call center trainer who guides young Indians through the labyrinth of American English. And she says she is able to pick up some of typical American accents while instructing her students.
"Well, you have Brooklyn. 'You walk the walk and you talk the talk.' And you have the southerner's thing. 'Oh hello, there. What can I do for you today,'" says Prabhu, who spends most of her time trying to de-Indianize her countrymen.
But it's difficult to get in. In fact, Prabhu says they accept approximately five applicants out of 100 applications.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On any given day in New Delhi and Bombay and Bangalore, the call goes out for new call center recruits as more and more American companies come calling. The call center employees earn $3,000 to $5,000 a year, in a nation where the per capita income is less than $500. The perks include free private transport to and from work plus the sheer heaven of an air-conditioned workplace.
There are few aspects of your telephonic life that do not sooner or later end up in India - from someone talking you into a new credit card, to your
attempt to return your mother-in-law's wonderful gift, to making sure you've paid that bill.
Debt collection is, as it has always been, a growth industry.
Arjun Raina, a Shakespearean actor, helps debt collectors and others trying to wheedle money out of you play the part.
"There's also a hierarchy of bill collectors. There's the sweet gentle one who's first calling in and saying, 'Just reminding you,' right? And then the toughies come in, you see? And the toughies have it quite good because the, for example, a lot of men have no problem being aggressive, right? Accent doesn't matter," says Raina. "You know, once I'm being aggressive with you, I don't have to be polite and neat. I can be tough with you, right?"
Partha Iyengar, an analyst in India for Gartner, an American research company, says this is probably the best example of globalization.
"Absolutely. We've had globalization in the manufacturing sector with the auto industry, and Japan really emerging as a major auto power. We've had globalization in the low end manufacturing industry with China emerging as a global power," says Iyengar. "But this is the first time in the knowledge industry we have globalization impacting two countries at such a large scale -- India and the U.S."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The U.S. government does not keep track of how many American jobs have gone overseas, but there are estimates that in just the last three years, as many as 400,000 jobs have gone to places like China, Russia, and India.
"The reason the companies are coming here is to really be more competitive and that cannot be bad for the U.S. economy," says Iyengar, who believes the effect of outsourcing on the Indian economy has been quite dramatic.
"There are some estimates that say that the whole outsourcing revolution, if we can call it that, will really be one of the key factors in moving India towards developed economy status."
At which time, India would probably outsource to China, for the same four reasons the U.S. outsources to India -- money, money, money and money.
What would be the savings to a multi-national company?
"You save anywhere between 30 to 50 percent," says Wipro chairman Roy.
And this is enough to dazzle even the most patriotic CEO, and so, JP Morgan Chase is hiring Indian stock analysts.
Indians also answer some of the Amazon.com's e-mail. And AOL and Dell send technical calls to India. Plus, if your doctor prescribes an MRI at Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston, it may be analyzed by a radiologist in India.
So what's left? Well, there's taxes. Last year, only a thousand U.S. tax returns were prepared in India. This year, there were 25,000.
"And next year, people are estimating that about 200,000 returns will be prepared in India," says Dave Wyle, a 31-year-old American entrepreneur who expects to make a fortune on outsourcing for U.S. accounting firms through his company, Sureprep, based in Bombay.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What makes India such a good candidate for outsourcing taxes specifically?
"The cost of the labor - it's a fraction of the cost," says Wyle. "You might be paying somebody $300 to $400 a month there that might make $3,000 to $4,000 a month or more in the United States."
Sureprep currently does work for more than 150 U.S. accounting firms, and its client list grows larger each month.
"These accounting firms range from small local firms to right now, it's about 20 of the top 100 firms including one of the national firms," says Wyle.
Those American firms scan an individual's tax documents into a computer. An Indian accountant logs on, fills out the return on his computer, and then it's printed out in the U.S., checked, signed and sent to the IRS.
But most people regard their tax returns as among the most private things they have. Is there any risk of that security being broken with tax returns flying through the ozone?
"The type of security you see in this facility is generally much more so than you would see in any U.S. accounting firm. Everything is paperless," says Wyle. "You'll notice in the facility there's no pens or papers on the desk. There's no printers in the work room. Everything's done on screen."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Young successful businessmen like Wyle and Roy no longer view the world as a place with boundaries.
"This is a global economy," says Wyle.
"Geography is history. Distances don't matter anymore," adds Roy.
But beyond the success and the money that's being made in this business, there's a terrific sense of national pride that India is making its mark in this very sophisticated way.
"There is a huge amount of nationalistic pride," says Roy. "Because we want to show that as a work force, as a labor pool, we are equivalent to, if not better than, anybody else. Anywhere in the world."
General Lee
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2002
- Posts
- 20,442
This was shown on 60 Minutes II last Tuesday. The Indian workers have real Indian names, but on the phone they call themselves "Mark, Julie, Bob, etc..." And, they do it for less and sound like they are in the US. Does that suck for the US workers? Yes. Can they replace us in the cockpit with Indian nationals? Not yet. And everytime there is an Orange terror Alert, you can count that it won't happen for atleast another year....
Bye Bye--General Lee
Bye Bye--General Lee
Newjetjocky,
This is not a new trend. Every industry that has a service element can export positions to India, the Philippines, or any other low-cost English-speaking country. Don't act soooooo surprised - and NO, Delta is not the ONLY company in the US doing it - I bet several other airlines are given the need to cut costs. Would you rather have them lower your salary instead?
Quit the negative attitude related to Delta. Seems like Delta is getting bashed left and right every day - unnecessarily in this case!!!!! Everyone is outsourcing to cut costs...
This is not a new trend. Every industry that has a service element can export positions to India, the Philippines, or any other low-cost English-speaking country. Don't act soooooo surprised - and NO, Delta is not the ONLY company in the US doing it - I bet several other airlines are given the need to cut costs. Would you rather have them lower your salary instead?
Quit the negative attitude related to Delta. Seems like Delta is getting bashed left and right every day - unnecessarily in this case!!!!! Everyone is outsourcing to cut costs...
SDF2BUF2MCO
Bird Nerd
- Joined
- May 13, 2002
- Posts
- 7,673
This is nothing new under the sun. Found out the hard way a couple of years ago when I had an issue with my Ford car.
Heard an interesting comment on the radio the other day, the guy was saying we are exporting our good paying middle class jobs while opening the borders so we can bring cheap labor into the US. If it weren't for the entertainment business, we'd be in a sorry state (sarcasm). Got to hand it to GWB (and to Clinton), they certainly have a vision for one world. Keep it up and none of us will be able to afford those $90 Nikes made in China.
Heard an interesting comment on the radio the other day, the guy was saying we are exporting our good paying middle class jobs while opening the borders so we can bring cheap labor into the US. If it weren't for the entertainment business, we'd be in a sorry state (sarcasm). Got to hand it to GWB (and to Clinton), they certainly have a vision for one world. Keep it up and none of us will be able to afford those $90 Nikes made in China.
Dell has been doing this for years. I know because everytime the POS breaks down I need to call India for a part.
The last time when my video card went down the Indian tech rep suggested that I go to an Internet cafe and down load the driver (even after I repeatedly remeinded him that it was still under warranty). Service is definatly something that is lacking with the Indian reps.
The last time when my video card went down the Indian tech rep suggested that I go to an Internet cafe and down load the driver (even after I repeatedly remeinded him that it was still under warranty). Service is definatly something that is lacking with the Indian reps.
BIGBROWNDC8
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2001
- Posts
- 247
Not to sound un-American... Im born and raised in the South...
I saw the same report on 60 minutes II the other day as well. Yes bad for America, the problem I see is that the deck is stacked against doing this kind of business in the good ole USA. Im not being un-American here, certainly not defending the out sourcing of jobs. After the 60 Min show, I gave this some thought and tried to analyse the subject from an objective prospective and this is what Ive come up with... Most Americans do not want this job anyway. Kinda like the crop pickers out west. I hate that it goes to another country, but industrial advances over the last century and the need for everyone to be a celebrity (or atleast make that kind of money over night) has led to many Min wage jobs going some where else where the pay is lower and the people actually want the job.
60 Mins reported that the average income in India was $500.00 (a year!!!) and that they pay these workers $3000.00 a year to answer phones. Talk about moving into the upper class... They also said that a majority of the people working there for these companies had a higher lever education (4 year undergrad) at a min. Not bad for people answer the phones... But you hardly ever find a post under grad here in the USA looking for or trying to retain a job answering the customer service line at XM Radio for chump change. To retain the jobs here, employers have to raise the wage to attract the worker. 99% of Corp america will not take this extra money out of their pockets so this equates to higher pricing for the consumer, or outsourcing to meet the cost demands... This sux for usA, but from a business prospective, its a good idea.
One of the issues I have is that if there going to out source these jobs, then more saving needs to come to the consumer. B4 the outsourcing, it cost "x" number of dollars to pay the workers here in the USA. Now that most of these jobs are outsourced, there is considerable saving and some of that needs to come back to the consumer.
Where most of you are reporting problems, Ive found that most the time Ive called (XM Radio, AOL, Amer Express) they are very friendly, and get my questions answered...
Im no economist, So I have no idea how to get these job and other back in the USA. Anyone have any ideas???
Later..
I saw the same report on 60 minutes II the other day as well. Yes bad for America, the problem I see is that the deck is stacked against doing this kind of business in the good ole USA. Im not being un-American here, certainly not defending the out sourcing of jobs. After the 60 Min show, I gave this some thought and tried to analyse the subject from an objective prospective and this is what Ive come up with... Most Americans do not want this job anyway. Kinda like the crop pickers out west. I hate that it goes to another country, but industrial advances over the last century and the need for everyone to be a celebrity (or atleast make that kind of money over night) has led to many Min wage jobs going some where else where the pay is lower and the people actually want the job.
60 Mins reported that the average income in India was $500.00 (a year!!!) and that they pay these workers $3000.00 a year to answer phones. Talk about moving into the upper class... They also said that a majority of the people working there for these companies had a higher lever education (4 year undergrad) at a min. Not bad for people answer the phones... But you hardly ever find a post under grad here in the USA looking for or trying to retain a job answering the customer service line at XM Radio for chump change. To retain the jobs here, employers have to raise the wage to attract the worker. 99% of Corp america will not take this extra money out of their pockets so this equates to higher pricing for the consumer, or outsourcing to meet the cost demands... This sux for usA, but from a business prospective, its a good idea.
One of the issues I have is that if there going to out source these jobs, then more saving needs to come to the consumer. B4 the outsourcing, it cost "x" number of dollars to pay the workers here in the USA. Now that most of these jobs are outsourced, there is considerable saving and some of that needs to come back to the consumer.
Where most of you are reporting problems, Ive found that most the time Ive called (XM Radio, AOL, Amer Express) they are very friendly, and get my questions answered...
Im no economist, So I have no idea how to get these job and other back in the USA. Anyone have any ideas???
Later..
And in the continuing sprialing race to the bottom of costs, wages, and quality of life...where will we be as a country in 20 years?
Keep this in mind. For every U.S. worker that loses his job to outsourcing, that creates a double-edged sword.
1. That worker is no longer a tax payer.
2. That worker is now drawing unemployment from the treasury.
That worker no longer has the money to buy the products that you are trying to sell which are now made by your slaves from India, China, and Mexico. But the CEO's and management still get ever growing paychecks, stock options, and bonuses.
FURLOUGH Bush in 2004!
Keep this in mind. For every U.S. worker that loses his job to outsourcing, that creates a double-edged sword.
1. That worker is no longer a tax payer.
2. That worker is now drawing unemployment from the treasury.
That worker no longer has the money to buy the products that you are trying to sell which are now made by your slaves from India, China, and Mexico. But the CEO's and management still get ever growing paychecks, stock options, and bonuses.
FURLOUGH Bush in 2004!
StopNTSing
Well-known member
- Joined
- Feb 16, 2003
- Posts
- 715
BIGBROWNDC8 said:
Agree completely with your points, BIGBROWNDC8. Unfortunately, I don't see those jobs ever coming back. They never have in other sectors. What does happen, though, is that our economy creates new jobs in new emerging markets just as it has consistently done since the Industrial Revolution....and our overall quality of life has steadily improved as a result. This of course comes at the expense of some job security, particularly for us worker bees. Another case in point: I fully expect that by the time I retire, my company will be operating airplanes with only one pilot, and your's will be operating airplanes with no pilots. It sucks, but I guess that's progress...and we have to learn to adapt or be run over by it.
klhoard
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2003
- Posts
- 766
Hmmmm. . . . . .
If $3000 per year makes you King in India, what does WideBody Captain pay make you??
So. . . . .
How long until we see a weekly 747 load of Indian/Pakistani/Chinese Captains and F/O's rotating into the U.S. ????
(I just hope that Senator Ted Stevens doesn't read this board)
If $3000 per year makes you King in India, what does WideBody Captain pay make you??
So. . . . .
How long until we see a weekly 747 load of Indian/Pakistani/Chinese Captains and F/O's rotating into the U.S. ????
(I just hope that Senator Ted Stevens doesn't read this board)
General Lee
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2002
- Posts
- 20,442
If we continue to have Orange Terror Alerts, NEVER. We will continue to have them near every holiday I bet, and that will continue to cause people problems, and foreign pilots with Visas will not be allowed to fly for airlines in the US. (Yes, they will still fly in here on individual flights---but not work here permanently)
Bye Bye--General Lee 
Bye Bye--General Lee
Snakum
How's your marmott?
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2002
- Posts
- 2,090
And the way things are going ... soon we'll be so phuking poor here in the US that we'll be HAPPY to do the job for a fraction of what the Asians get for it in order to feed our families. We'll be able to compete again and we can be subcontracted by the rich Chinese. See? Everything comes full circle.
Not very long at all ... count on it.
Every current and former Senator, Representative, and President, still living should be made to answer for this. It isn't just Democrats or just Republicans to blame ... they've all shared in this wonderful joint effort toward a two-class system in the US ... the Rich and the Poor. There will be no 'Middle Class' for our grandchildren if we stay on our present course.
Edit ... General: I'd bet you my measley paycheck against yours that you're wrong on that one. Unfortunately ....
Minh
StopNTSing said:
Yeah, they did. Dell’s corporate program support center had enough gripes from corporations that they brought those jobs back in the ‘ole US of A. Language barrier and the inability to relate to many problems were cited as the reason. The little guy, like you and I, don’t have the leverage to influence Dell (& the likes) in the same manner as their commercial accounts. Unfortunately, this is the only instance of “jobs brought back” I know.
"Nancy, Sean, and Julia..." - who are they kidding?
Swass
So long, America.....
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2003
- Posts
- 2,015
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