Delta shocks wall street...

[Vne]

So the BK laws only pertain to the Airline industry? What are your views on personal BK? Do you think those people should be shot if they can't pay the bills? Let's return to the wild wild west while we are at it......Thanks Fartknocker....

GL

If I had a dollar for every time a Delta pilot told me when my company was in BK that " you guys should do everybody a favor and go out of business" I wouldn't give a sh!t about the pension I lost....
Shoes on the other foot and now "every things right in the universe" hypocrite.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

It's a riot, isn't it? This industries employees only undertand the here and now, and could give a rat's arz about the health of the company. You think if reason had raised it's ugly head 10 years ago that DL would be in this position today. They'll all climb back on the floating log like a bunch of insects that think they are going to save themselves while they head for Niagara Falls.

Someday, somewhere an airline will emerge where their employees understand the long term consequences of instant gratification.:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

imp:​

Lowecur... I agree with your premise. Though I chuckled at the insect metaphor and would probably have expressed the sentiment differently, it is apt. DAL, with $22 BILLION in debt, bankrupt, pensions and wages raped, labor agreement in tatters, workforce demoralized... why it's every pilot's current dream employer!

I cannot, with a straight face, encourage any youth to pursue aviation as a CAREER. Aviation, like medicine and so many other careers, has unfortunately seen its glory days come and go. I feel extremely fortunate to not have a dog running in this race, though the effects are still felt on our side, albeit to a much lesser extent.

BBB

 

[737 Pylt]

delta's awesome mamgement team was the real reference, but if you want an apology just hold you breath.

You should save yours, you'll need it later for your inflatable date!

Funny how they rally the employees to keep the current management in power. Me thinks USair is the way to go.

The only thing funny is you thinking, moron! Just what the world needs, another rj puke who thinks he/she knows it all. Stick with swinging the gear for your captain junior, your in way over your head!

737

 

[General Lee]

GL

If I had a dollar for every time a Delta pilot told me when my company was in BK that " you guys should do everybody a favor and go out of business" I wouldn't give a sh!t about the pension I lost....
Shoes on the other foot and now "every things right in the universe" hypocrite.

Wow, some pent up anger here. Wow. I never said I thought my airline would NEVER go into BK. And, I don't remember saying that about yours, since there would be a lot of job losses, but if you say so.... I am so glad you got your revenge. Now we both don't have a pension. Great. Feel better now you big baby??


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[800Dog]

The wild west need not return, but there should be some accountability here. If someone is too stupid or irresponsible or unable to run a business whether it be their own finances or they hang a shingle somewhere, they should not be in business. So it's okay to loose $22B?? Delta will not make that much money in the next 100 years. They are upside down in thier own operation and are a burden on society and their vendors. They ONLY lost millions again. LOL.

And so was every other bankrupt airline who preceded Delta. Had they not been allowed to abuse the process, Delta might not find itself in bankruptcy. Maybe CAL, USAir, AmWest, UAL, NWA and the list goes on should no longer be in business!

 

[General Lee]

I think AWA went BK twice, and USAir did too. And they both used ATSB loans, right?


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[737 Pylt]

"Cost savings..." :laugh: I don't have a dog in this race and this is not meant as a criticism of any DAL employees... but I can't help but wonder how all the suppliers, vendors, manufacturers, contractors, investors, etc... feel knowing Delta will renege on about $15 BILLION in obligations (debt) owed to them.

It's an amazing world where you can rack up approximately $22 BILLION in debt and simply walk away from 2/3's of it through a bankruptcy filing. That's a heck of a lot of money that suppliers will not be paid for services rendered, parts supplied, aircraft repaired, catered, fueled, etc... All of these services were performed in good faith with an expectation of payment. So, I chuckle when I read about Delta's "cost savings" (in other words... "we're simply not going to pay that huge sum of money to all those legitimate companies that trusted us and supplied us with the essentials to keep our airline operating... for if we did we'd be out of business!")

Forgive me, but I just don't believe any company ought to be able to do that. Heck, the same can be said for the Delta employees and the loss of their pensions. That pension money was earned and it should have to be set aside and paid out. Here again, if Delta actually had to pay its obligations it would be out of business.

Tell me again why so many pilots are eager to work for Delta now that they've announced hiring?

BBB

BBB:
Hypothetical question for you......
Say you are trying to refinance your mortgage rate on your house, your current rate is 9.5%. You get a better deal from a different bank at say 5%, would you refinance it? Of course you would, thus saving yourself hundreds of thousands of dollars over the life of the (30 yr) loan. Are you cheating your current lender out of his money?
DL has billions of dollars in debt. All accured by past inept management (Leo Mullin), and has shed some of its double digit interest rates down to very fair interest rates, and thus, as you put it, walking away from alot of their debt. Is it fair? Probably not, is it right, probably not!
US Air did it, UAL did it 2 x's, so did AWA 2 x's, and CAL!
What about the airlines that took the ATSB loan from the gov't?
You make some valid points, I'm just playing devils advocate!

737

GL

If I had a dollar for every time a Delta pilot told me when my company was in BK that " you guys should do everybody a favor and go out of business" I wouldn't give a sh!t about the pension I lost....
Shoes on the other foot and now "every things right in the universe" hypocrite.

You're full of it. Why would DL pilots be at a local airport where you are flight instructing. Save your tough guy talk for the mall chicks, I'm sure they dig it!

737

 

[Remington]

And so was every other bankrupt airline who preceded Delta. Had they not been allowed to abuse the process, Delta might not find itself in bankruptcy. Maybe CAL, USAir, AmWest, UAL, NWA and the list goes on should no longer be in business!

So if all your buddies jumped over a cliff, you would too?

 

[kc81900]

Let's see....and you are in an rj? Is that right?
Uh huh...

And you are in a A320 at rj pay rates??? Uh Huh ... don't throw stones until you fortify your own house

 

[Remington]

You should save yours, you'll need it later for your inflatable date!



The only thing funny is you thinking, moron! Just what the world needs, another rj puke who thinks he/she knows it all. Stick with swinging the gear for your captain junior, your in way over your head!

737

Old man river,

Be careful this winter, we dont want people like you slipping on the ice and breaking your hip. The "RJ pukes" will be invading your cockpit very, very soon. Comming to a cockpit near you, "RJ Puke Invasion." Try to befriend these folks, they might have some "oldies" on their Ipod for you to listen to.

 

[800Dog]

So if all your buddies jumped over a cliff, you would too?

What? Two years of community college I presume.

 

[General Lee]

So if all your buddies jumped over a cliff, you would too?

Great argument.......We didn't WANT to go BK, but the process is there, and some have used it TWICE. I wouldn't want anyone to go through this process, but the American Way allows people to falter, and then pick themselves back up. If you want cut throat, move to Africa.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[johnsonrod]

So, without bankruptcy protection would people be in favor of 80,000 people losing their jobs? Is that preferrable?

Delta will emerge stronger from this process and 80,000 or so people will have their jobs (and local governments will have their tax revenues). If you want to blame people and hold people accountable, you should target Leo and his former management cronies - they should be held accountable for their incredibly illogical management decisions... How many billions of dollars did Leo waste on a stock buyback right before/after 9/11? $2-3 billion in cash? Who screwed up the fuel hedging situation? Are these people being sued for their stupidity???? What about their highly-paid McKinsey consultants and accounting firms? Who has sued them for malpractice???? Don't blame the pilots for these problems...

 

[ironspud]

You and Parker are the only ones who think USAir is the way to go. According to Oberstar, the Chairman of the Transportation committee, he doesn't know anyone in Congress who is in favor of this takeover. And, he said he would lean on the DOJ if needed. Regardless, the creditor committee will eventually vote in our favor. Sorry. About the loss, yeah it happened, and it was better than last year's. It says it all in the news story.

Bye Bye--General Lee

The "Oberstar arguement" is so old it smells. Find a new one.

 

[Remington]

So, without bankruptcy protection would people be in favor of 80,000 people losing their jobs? Is that preferrable?

Delta will emerge stronger from this process and 80,000 or so people will have their jobs (and local governments will have their tax revenues). If you want to blame people and hold people accountable, you should target Leo and his former management cronies - they should be held accountable for their incredibly illogical management decisions... How many billions of dollars did Leo waste on a stock buyback right before/after 9/11? $2-3 billion in cash? Who screwed up the fuel hedging situation? Are these people being sued for their stupidity???? What about their highly-paid McKinsey consultants and accounting firms? Who has sued them for malpractice???? Don't blame the pilots for these problems...

I never said the pilots are to blame. I think at an entirely overpriced pilot group contributed to more problems post 911. So an employer with 80000 employees should have pitty taken on them? I am sure most would get a new job. They would not be jobless forever. Unemployment runs out after 6 months. Minimal tax burden for us hardworking Americans. When folks get hired at DAL do they sign a contract which guarantees them employment for the rest of their lives? Didn't think so.
What happend to the vendors who yall screwed? Did they go out of business? Did those families declare bankruptcy. Or are their business too small to worry about. Should SWA and AA get a 2 Mississippi head-start on any decision making in the industry since they struggled thru their hardships and came out the back end. Just looking for apples and apples here. Delta, and all airlines, should not be immune to economic ups and downs. Someday all the airlines that are in business today will be history. When, is the only answer that nobody knows. I am not wishing ill-will on anyone, but I believe that the arrogance of the DAL, AAA, and UAL pilot group contributed to what happend after 911. We are all bluecollar workers who happen to move airplanes. It's not rocket surgery. We are all replaceable. There are tons of 25yr/old regional pilots with more hightech aviation experience than most of us and are just as capable as moving a 777 across the pond as a 59 year old.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

BBB:
Hypothetical question for you......
Say you are trying to refinance your mortgage rate on your house, your current rate is 9.5%. You get a better deal from a different bank at say 5%, would you refinance it? Of course you would, thus saving yourself hundreds of thousands of dollars over the life of the (30 yr) loan. Are you cheating your current lender out of his money?
DL has billions of dollars in debt. All accured by past inept management (Leo Mullin), and has shed some of its double digit interest rates down to very fair interest rates, and thus, as you put it, walking away from alot of their debt. Is it fair? Probably not, is it right, probably not!
US Air did it, UAL did it 2 x's, so did AWA 2 x's, and CAL!
What about the airlines that took the ATSB loan from the gov't?
You make some valid points, I'm just playing devils advocate!

Forgive me... but I totally miss your point. If you are asking is it ethical to refinance debt to a lower interest rate... of course it is (as long as neither party is FORCED to participate.) I fail to see how that is germane to anything I've discussed, however. Refinancing debt to a lower cost of BORROWING is not the same as having that debt dismissed via bankruptcy (or are you saying it is and that is your point? )

I admit I am not exceedingly well informed about the details of DAL's filing, but it is my understanding these "negotiations" to lower borrowing costs have been basically FORCED upon the lenders. Prior to BK it is my understanding the lenders did not voluntarily agree to lower these costs. Given the bankruptcy filing and the specter of complete DEFAULT on the loans I believe the lenders were under tremendous pressure to protect whatever remained of their investment (stockholder's money). This is a much different scenario than you initially innocently portrayed.

If I am mistaken about any of this, sorry. As I mentioned, I have not followed Delta's filing that closely... but this is generally how these "negotiations" to lower costs work in bankruptcy. Again, this is not meant as a slight to any airline personnel. Rather, it is more of a general sentiment about the whole broken bankruptcy process which essentially rewards corporations for failing to pay their accrued debt. In Delta's case it is a WHOPPING $22 BILLION!

BBB

 

[800Dog]

I never said the pilots are to blame. I think at an entirely overpriced pilot group contributed to more problems post 911. So an employer with 80000 employees should have pitty taken on them? I am sure most would get a new job. They would not be jobless forever. Unemployment runs out after 6 months. Minimal tax burden for us hardworking Americans. When folks get hired at DAL do they sign a contract which guarantees them employment for the rest of their lives? Didn't think so.
What happend to the vendors who yall screwed? Did they go out of business? Did those families declare bankruptcy. Or are their business too small to worry about. Should SWA and AA get a 2 Mississippi head-start on any decision making in the industry since they struggled thru their hardships and came out the back end. Just looking for apples and apples here. Delta, and all airlines, should not be immune to economic ups and downs. Someday all the airlines that are in business today will be history. When, is the only answer that nobody knows. I am not wishing ill-will on anyone, but I believe that the arrogance of the DAL, AAA, and UAL pilot group contributed to what happend after 911. We are all bluecollar workers who happen to move airplanes. It's not rocket surgery. We are all replaceable. There are tons of 25yr/old regional pilots with more hightech aviation experience than most of us and are just as capable as moving a 777 across the pond as a 59 year old.

Another two year community college genius!

 

[Remington]

Huh? What's community college have to do with it? What level of edumacation does it take to post here? 2yr, 4yr, grad degree? Einstein dropped out of High School and I believe Bill Gates quit college. How have the ultra-educated CEO's of DAL ran your airline?

 

[800Dog]

Huh? What's community college have to do with it? What level of edumacation does it take to post here? 2yr, 4yr, grad degree? Einstein dropped out of High School and I believe Bill Gates quit college. How have the ultra-educated CEO's of DAL ran your airline?

I believe the phrase is "run your airline", not ran! Takes little to no education to post here as evidenced by your posts! Takes education to post an intelligent argument. Obviously you are an uneducated idiot and have no shot at Delta. You do not care? Then why post the question about the Delta interview process? Bill gates dropped out of Harvard by the way. Not your local community college. Can you Biggie Size my order please!

 

[Remington]

Harvard Schmarvard, he still dropped out. That is a college right? So uneducated individuals cannot make intelligent arguments? I disagree. Education might enhance someone's arguing ability, but the lack of education does not prohibit the ability to argue successfully. What pedigree do you have that makes you such an expert on the issue? Is it that you are a Legacy pilot so you know everything, or did you go to "that little boys school in Co. Springs?"

 

[TheBaron]

Take it a step further. If the bankruptcy laws were not as they are, maybe Delta would have never been in this position. How many bankrupt airlines has Delta had to compete with since deregulation? What about airlines who took ATSB loans? Delta is just playing the game that so many have before them. Not saying its right but, it is what it is.

Just a wild guess but here goes...
the same number SWA has competed with.

 

[bravodude]

Another two year community college genius!

And you are a 4 year degree moron. I presume you are a delta pilot who was fat dmb and happy while delta lost millions. whats your point.

 

[800Dog]

And you are a 4 year degree moron. I presume you are a delta pilot who was fat dmb and happy while delta lost millions. whats your point.

My point is that there are some who post here, such as yourself, who bring nothing of substance to the debate. You come across as an uneducated, mentally challenged and idiotic individual. Go back to the corporate board where you belong.

 

[SpeedBird]

I guess that JetBlue pilots are not the only ones with thin skins on this forum.

BBB, you've distilled this problem to its essence.

There is a big dark secret going on in American business and it seems no one wants to expose it for what it really is. What Delta is doing is not unique, but in the end, their means don't justify the ends and cannot be rationalized away by some of the comments here. Yes, US Airways, NWA, UAL are all equally guilty of the same thing, but their examples should not be used as a benchmark to rationalize the actions of Delta's management and board.

With that said, I'll shift gears slightly and make the following comments since it has a big part to play in this situation.

While the early years of deregulation expanded the industry in unprecedented ways, and gave 80% of us jobs that would never have been available to us during regulation; we are now suffering from the longer term impacts of what deregulation has created within the larger context of market/business globalization, and the unrelenting efforts of US corporations to remain viable under tremendous competitive challenges.

It is naive for any of us to blame any single source for our woes of the last 6 years, but we certainly need to have a better appreciation and understanding of the complex events that have brought us to this point. Deregulation has been a two-edged sword for our profession and our career opportunities, and certainly reminds me of Dickens quote "it was the best of times, it was the worst of times."

Referencing Dickens' quote to bring my response back to Delta's actions, perhaps Delta's creditors should pull out the proverbial guillotine and chop off the collective head of Delta's management team, if they continue to act in a way that says "let them eat cake."

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

And you are in a A320 at rj pay rates???

Might want to look again...

 

[lowecur]

There is a big dark secret going on in American business and it seems no one wants to expose it for what it really is. What Delta is doing is not unique, but in the end, their means don't justify the ends and cannot be rationalized away by some of the comments here. Yes, US Airways, NWA, UAL are all equally guilty of the same thing, but their examples should not be used as a benchmark to rationalize the actions of Delta's management and board. Employees need to understand that success is based on adhearence to a long term business model. Legacy Mgt with their outrageous salaries and stock option/bonus' who can retire after a few years leading a company, along with employee groups that are led by a skewed union leadership that puts senior employee interests ahead of the group as a whole, have all choked the perverbial golden goose onto life support since deregulation.


While the early years of deregulation expanded the industry in unprecedented ways, and gave 80% of us jobs that would never have been available to us during regulation; we are now suffering from the longer term impacts of what deregulation has created within the larger context of market/business globalization, and the unrelenting efforts of US corporations to remain viable under tremendous competitive challenges. The BOD is in collusion with many of these Wall St wonderkinds that they hire. They have seen it's a receipe for disaster, but you have to look no further than the two prospective protege's to Grinstein, to see that things will not change at the new DL.

It is naive for any of us to blame any single source for our woes of the last 6 years, but we certainly need to have a better appreciation and understanding of the complex events that have brought us to this point. Deregulation has been a two-edged sword for our profession and our career opportunities, and certainly reminds me of Dickens quote "it was the best of times, it was the worst of times." It's all about greed and power in lieu of stability. Each group has taken their turn flushing the future of the company down the drain by creating or manufacturing their adversarial positions. Being humble and putting the interests of the company first will never succeed in the airline business as long as you continue to have leadership on both sides that put themselves ahead of their company.

Referencing Dickens' quote to bring my response back to Delta's actions, perhaps Delta's creditors should pull out the proverbial guillotine and chop off the collective head of Delta's management team, if they continue to act in a way that says "let them eat cake."

DL's mgt team says they are making peanuts at $382,500. per year. They say they have turned their noses up at annual paychecks in the millions for an opportunity to run DL. Why would these wunderkinds do such a thing? One's wife says it's in her husbands blood to run an airline. I for one think that's all a bunch of crap, and if both of these gentlemen are part of the new DL, the million dollar paychecks they have turned down for this opportunity will seem like chump change....mark my words. This will be the "new" beginning of a business that has never learned from history, and is destined to repeat the same mistakes.

imp:​

http://www.sltrib.com/business/ci_4897972

 

[General Lee]

DL's mgt team says they are making peanuts at $382,500. per year. They say they have turned their noses up at annual paychecks in the millions for an opportunity to run DL. Why would these wunderkinds do such a thing? One's wife says it's in her husbands blood to run an airline. I for one think that's all a bunch of crap, and if both of these gentlemen are part of the new DL, the million dollar paychecks they have turned down for this opportunity will seem like chump change....mark my words. This will be the "new" beginning of a business that has never learned from history, and is destined to repeat the same mistakes.

imp:​

http://www.sltrib.com/business/ci_4897972

Adherance to long term business models? Did a 9-11 scenario factor into that? Has there been ANYTHING that traumatic to the airline industry, ever?
Nope. Then fuel shot up due to speculators going wild. How about that in your "long term business models?" Anyone ever seen that before? That blew your theory away. And, Grinstein fired most of the management people that wouldn't take a pay cut. Will some do well with upcoming options or stock? Sure. That is why they are there. But, the large windfalls for airline management are pretty much over...(compared with exit bonuses Wolf, Mullin got etc..)

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[warbirdfinder]

General wrote:
Adherance to long term business models? Did a 9-11 scenario factor into that? Has there been ANYTHING that traumatic to the airline industry, ever?
Nope. Then fuel shot up due to speculators going wild. How about that in your "long term business models?" Anyone ever seen that before? That blew your theory away.

You had better study up on your history and how the below listed traumatic periods affected the airline industry. One example: at Western the 1980 recession meant furlough for some pilots for 5 years. The post 9-11 setback was not as bad as previous recessions.

Great Depression (1929 to late 1930s, stock market crash, banking collapse in the United States sparks a global downturn, including a second downturn in the U.S., the Recession of 1937.
Post-Korean War Recession (1953 - 1954) - The Recession of 1953 was a demand-driven recession due to poor government policies and high interest rates.
1973 oil crisis - a quadrupuling of oil prices by OPEC coupled with high government spending due to the Vietnam War leads to stagflation in the United States.
1979 energy crisis - 1979 until 1980, the Iranian Revolution sharply increases the price of oil
Early 1980s recession - 1982 and 1983, caused by tight monetary policy in the U.S. to control inflation and sharp correction to overproduction of the previous decade which had been masked by inflation
Great Commodities Depression - 1980 to 2000, general recession in commodity prices
Late 1980s recession - 1988 to 1992, collapse of junk bonds and a sharp stock crash in the United States leads to a recession in much of the West
Early 2000s recession - 2001 to 2003: the collapse of the Dot Com Bubble, September 11th attacks and accounting scandals contribute to a relatively mild contraction in the North American economy.

 

[General Lee]

General wrote:
Adherance to long term business models? Did a 9-11 scenario factor into that? Has there been ANYTHING that traumatic to the airline industry, ever?
Nope. Then fuel shot up due to speculators going wild. How about that in your "long term business models?" Anyone ever seen that before? That blew your theory away.

You had better study up on your history and how the below listed traumatic periods affected the airline industry. One example: at Western the 1980 recession meant furlough for some pilots for 5 years. The post 9-11 setback was not as bad as previous recessions.

Great Depression (1929 to late 1930s, stock market crash, banking collapse in the United States sparks a global downturn, including a second downturn in the U.S., the Recession of 1937.
Post-Korean War Recession (1953 - 1954) - The Recession of 1953 was a demand-driven recession due to poor government policies and high interest rates.
1973 oil crisis - a quadrupuling of oil prices by OPEC coupled with high government spending due to the Vietnam War leads to stagflation in the United States.
1979 energy crisis - 1979 until 1980, the Iranian Revolution sharply increases the price of oil
Early 1980s recession - 1982 and 1983, caused by tight monetary policy in the U.S. to control inflation and sharp correction to overproduction of the previous decade which had been masked by inflation
Great Commodities Depression - 1980 to 2000, general recession in commodity prices
Late 1980s recession - 1988 to 1992, collapse of junk bonds and a sharp stock crash in the United States leads to a recession in much of the West
Early 2000s recession - 2001 to 2003: the collapse of the Dot Com Bubble, September 11th attacks and accounting scandals contribute to a relatively mild contraction in the North American economy.

Not even close to 9-11. Nope. World War 2.....there you go. How about the future war with Mars? People stopped flying after 9-11 for FEAR of flying. The others were economic reasons. There are always cycles for the economy, usually at the beginning of each decade. Think about that. It seems to be true. A business plan could possibly watch that. But 9-11 scared people into not flying, and no business plan ever had that as an option.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Vne]

Now we both don't have a pension.

Naw I still have the one I made for myself.
Never trust an airline company OR airline union.
You guys (DL) are toast . History shows NO airline goes in BK once!
UAL is about 2 years out again unless they find a date. What makes this so sad is you guys were in an altered reality way past the alarm bells...
This premature ejection from the BK process will bite ya in the ass and less then 2 yrs from now its back in again. Plan accordingly.