Delta realignment

[General Lee]

Nope, Surplus1 knows that he will always be outclassed by the wisdom of any AA pilot. To challenge the word of the gods is futile.

He waits in awe to have you tell him how things are and why.

Come on now, quit with the self pity. You would have jumped at the chance to go to AA, DL, or any other Major back in the late 90s. Instead, you chose to stay and hope one day that you wouldn't have to give up your vacation to be my right seat, and gain larger planes at the expense of mainline in the process.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[surplus1]

The RJDC does not believe that any pilot group can own its code, an airline's code, according to the RJDC, can only be controlled by the airline, not the pilot group. According to the RJDC, contract language that limits an airlines ability to outsource is illegal.

Here's some Q and A on the subject with Surplus

Quote:

1. Can the DAL pilot group, or any pilot group own/control their code?




In a word, NO. The “code” under which your airline operates is not owned by the Delta pilots and it is not controlled by the Delta pilots. The “code” is owned by Delta Air Lines, Inc. and they alone “control” it. The same applies to other “codes” owned by other airlines.

What the DAL pilot group can attempt to negotiate or control, is which pilots will fly the aircraft that are operated by Delta Air Lines. Those airplanes are, without exception, on the Delta Air Lines operating certificate. The rule would apply equally to other airlines as well.

Thanks for the good quote. What you won't, can't, or don't acknowledge is that neither Surplus1 or the RJDC can alter truth to accomodate your desire to embrace mythology.

Your ideas are like faith - based on mythology and belief in what cannot be proven. Our beliefs are based on what is real, not fiction.

Never the twain shall meet.

 

[FDJ2]

Thanks for the good quote. What you won't, can't, or don't acknowledge is that neither Surplus1 or the RJDC can alter truth to accomodate your desire to embrace mythology.

Your ideas are like faith - based on mythology and belief in what cannot be proven. Our beliefs are based on what is real, not fiction.

Never the twain shall meet.

Interesting Surplus, that when I quote you, your response is that my ideas are "based on mythology and belief in what cannot be proven," nevermind that you are responding to your own words and not my beliefs.

Nevermind the fact that you don't dispute anything I wrote. You simply redirect and attack me instead of dealing with the fact that the RJDC and the rest of your whipsaw buddies, don't believe that any pilot group can have controlling language over its code. At the end of the day, you and the RJDC believe that no pilot group can control the outsourcing of an airlines code and that an airline, like DAL, should be allowed to outsource all of its code without restriction.

Again in your own words:

Quote:

1. Can the DAL pilot group, or any pilot group own/control their code?




In a word, NO. The “code” under which your airline operates is not owned by the Delta pilots and it is not controlled by the Delta pilots. The “code” is owned by Delta Air Lines, Inc. and they alone “control” it. The same applies to other “codes” owned by other airlines.

 

[General Lee]

Surplus1,


Are you a current Comair pilot? Just curious.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[michael707767]

The Comair and ASA MECs were denied a seat at the table when mainline scope was being negotiated.

read again what YOU just wrote. Your MECs were denied a seat when MAINLINE scope was being negotiated. Why should you be at the table when mainline scope is negotiated?

 

[michael707767]

Why should Embraer give big discounts to DL when they can sell them at a higher price to Republic, Mesa, etc?

hmm, by the same token why should Airbus have given JetBlue a great deal some years ago, when they could get a higher price from NW, UAL, USAir, etc. Bottom line is, market share counts. And every time Airbus or Embraer or Boeing locks in a new customer, it means that airline does not buy from the competition and it means that the odds of you selling more aircraft to that customer increased dramatically. It doesn't always work though. I bet Airbus never thought JetBlue would not buy a 100 seater from them. It's a funny, funny industry.

 

[michael707767]

In a word, NO. The “code” under which your airline operates is not owned by the Delta pilots and it is not controlled by the Delta pilots. The “code” is owned by Delta Air Lines, Inc. and they alone “control” it. The same applies to other “codes” owned by other airlines.

Know what, there are right. Delta does own the code. And Delta chose to sign a contract with the Delta pilots giving them rights to a large portion of that code. They did not have to do that. But they did. Deal with it.

 

[N2264J]

read again what YOU just wrote. Your MECs were denied a seat when MAINLINE scope was being negotiated. Why should you be at the table when mainline scope is negotiated?

Because at the time, there were three MECs, presumably equal in stature in the eyes of the union, on the Delta property. Your MEC left a huge hole in scope with "permitted aircraft" and we were prevented by our own union from addressing that problem. We were told ALPA's brand scope ploy was the answer but it proved to be only a "feel good" diversion.

ALPA left us wide open then refused to let us address the problem with Delta using our own bargaining capital. Now Chautauqua is operating a type rating that goes all the way to 110 seats while Delta retires the 737-200. I think it's highly unlikely that the Delta pilots will ever see that flying again and you don't have the bargaining leverage to stop it (exacerbated by not wanting to merge with us thereby getting control of almost all the flying). In other words, your scope has not only been harmful to us at Comair and ASA but to the mainline pilots as well. It hasn't saved one mainline job. You've been duped.

http://www.rjdefense.com/alpaletters.pdf

 

[~~~^~~~]

At the end of the day, you and the RJDC believe that no pilot group can control the outsourcing of an airlines code and that an airline, like DAL, should be allowed to outsource all of its code without restriction.

Again in your own words:

Quote:

1. Can the DAL pilot group, or any pilot group own/control their code?

In a word, NO. The “code” under which your airline operates is not owned by the Delta pilots and it is not controlled by the Delta pilots. The “code” is owned by Delta Air Lines, Inc. and they alone “control” it. The same applies to other “codes” owned by other airlines.

FDJ2:

You often repeat this quote and try to tell everyone it means something other than what its says. Has your own zeal blinded you?

The RJDC's position is that the Delta pilots can not control code that they contract not to fly. If the Delta pilots want to contract for all Delta flying - GREAT The problem is that the Delta pilots only want to perform some of Delta's flying while outsourcing the flying they deem as being beneath them. The RJDC believes, as do I, that once the Delta pilots sell their scope, it no longer belongs to them.

The current race for the bottom is fostered by your approach. Because ALPA will not allow an ASA to scope any code, a alter ego free for all has been created. This free for all has negatively effected the Delta pilots because the low cost alternatives like MESA and CHQ do not even bring in the revenue to support the Comair level of pay and benefits. (Comair is seeing their flying diluted as CHQ and Mesa is getting hours - DCI is still growing)

My thought is that the Delta pilots have the first bite at the scope apple. If they toss the part of the apple they don't want at the curb, it then belongs to the ants.

By the same token, once you outsource your flying in exchange for a better contract, then it becomes somebody else's flying and they should be able to protect it from alter ego encroachment.

We can't even have a safety program like ASAP at ASA because our HR Department wants to turn it into a item to negotiate in our contract. Pay for safety - what a bunch of crap. This alone should prove the point that the regional guys have zero negotiating capital - thanks to the Delta MEC who wants to control flying that they don't want to do themselves.

If you let us have our RJ's then you have to take the remote control box of the jet and let us try to improve our end of the profession. It all boils down to representation. ALPA will not allow regional pilots to enter into contracts with the parties that have operational control of their airlines. Without scope there is nothing to bind pilots and code together.

Do you really think the profession is headed in the right direction? Do you really think Delta pilots have benefitted from all the outsourcing your pilots have ratified? Even though General Lee hates Jet Blue's pay rates, isn't there something to be said for "All Jet Blue Flying is performed by Jet Blue Pilots?" Heck they have perfectg scope and they don't even have a union.

Regards,
~~~^~~~

P.S. Is ALPA worse than no union at all? Perhaps with the SkyWest deal ASA pilots will be asked to make that decision.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Now Chautauqua is operating a type rating that goes all the way to 110 seats while Delta retires the 737-200. I think it's highly unlikely that the Delta pilots will ever see that flying again and you don't have the bargaining leverage to stop it (exacerbated by not wanting to merge with us thereby getting control of almost all the flying). In other words, your scope has not only been harmful to us at Comair and ASA but to the mainline pilots as well. It hasn't saved one mainline job. You've been duped.

This guy is exactly right. Any of the Delta pilots beginning to realize it yet?