Delta, Northwest Focus On Joint Pilot Contract

[John Pennekamp]

Sorry, you are not in a position to understand the macro implications of trade offs of single seniority lists within a brand. My MEC is. Also, it is but a blip on a very full radar screen for us, where it seems to be the only blip in your world. Neither one of us in in possession of the big picture, so we are left with where we are: one group with less of a compensation package demanding more of the pie, and one group with more of a compensation package demanding more of the pie, controlling negotiations of the actual company, history of the major/regional relationship, and perhaps most importantly a management that is dead set against it. So tell me again how a flow-through does not address the concerns of reasonable regional pilots. This ought to be good.

Dont'cha see there, Joe, we's just dumb hillbilly commuter pilots. We's don't understand all that high level mumbo jumbo they's there mainline pilots understand. Hell, nun of us's even been to college! They's all got advanced degrees, you know. You better just leave those there Almighty All knowing, Double Breasted Delta Pilots 'lone, 'cause they's got them the Big Picture that our tiny little hillbilly commuter pilots brains can't understand.

 

[DrewBlows]

I like what you wrote. I will say that when you get hired, you agree to the terms of the contract. Unless the terms say that in the event of furloughs, nobody picks up time, you really don't have much to say.

I understand the legalities of the contract (which were changed after I got hired, but that's another story). The contract says nothing about using my influence to pressure people not to pick up open time, which is precisely what I did. It's not a concerted effort for someone who is not even on the seniority list to petition (informally) for people to avoid open time. We're on the same page on this one, I just wanted to expand a little.

As far as the NWA thingy, you are correct, it would appear as if there is leverage. HOW MCUH leverage is subject to debate. how it will be spent is subject to another. Scope may very well be a part of it, although I doubt it will be to bring our regionals on our list. You talk about business. What you call good/bad business could be construed the other way with a different argument. For example: Airlines need feed from smaller cities for connecting traffic. Connecting increases cost. The lower the connecting costs, the greater the connecting profits. So, to a degree, it behooves mainlines pilots to keep those costs low, with the leverage that those jobs will eventually be vacated to higher paying jobs at their airline. I don't necessarily agree with doing it that way, but it IS indeed the way it has been before i even came into the biz, and seems to be the way the status quo is determined to carry on.

This is the strategy that has led to the current situation. Airline pilots have essentially no power and when they are given a little leverage in the form of a merger that a lot of people really want to happen, they look for a short term gain. Mainline pilots are mistaken if they think keeping regional pilots separate and regional wages low is in their interest. Of course it is in the companies interest to keep connecting wages low, it is also in the companies interest to keep 777 pilots wages low and they will use all of their means to work toward that goal.

In the 80's: "We don't want turbo-props, they will just deflate L1011 wages."

90's: "We don't want Comair to have CRJ's, but they won't last anyway, there is no point of giving up any pay to get them on property."

2000's: "Crap, those CRJ's have really caught on, but as long as they are only 50 seaters...and a few 70 seaters, it will be okay. We don't want to give anything up to keep them."

Bankruptcy: "Jesus! This really sucks, try to keep anything we can. Give them 76 seaters if it means saving something."

Now: "Yeah, we have a little leverage, but we need to get back some of what we lost in bankruptcy. Those RJs will go away eventually anyway."

2010's: "Take it back! Give them DC-9 replacements to pay for it."

2020's: "Give 'em the 757 replacement if it means keeping 787 wages."

2030's: Retired airline pilot: "Remember when Delta used to actually fly airplanes? I never thought ALPA would become so powerless Delta would just replace them. Who could have seen that coming?"

I would imagine the leverage will be used to bring the NWA guys par, increase the Delta side, job security protections, and perhaps to take back some scope.

I agree. However, I don't think this is the best use of leverage. In my opinion, scope is the basis of what an airline union must use to gain power. With power comes better contracts.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Dont'cha see there, Joe, we's just dumb hillbilly commuter pilots. We's don't understand all that high level mumbo jumbo they's there mainline pilots understand. Hell, nun of us's even been to college! They's all got advanced degrees, you know. You better just leave those there Almighty All knowing, Double Breasted Delta Pilots 'lone, 'cause they's got them the Big Picture that our tiny little hillbilly commuter pilots brains can't understand.

Don't worry JP......someday you too can be a real airline pilot if you keep working on it....

 

[PuffDriver]

Dont'cha see there, Joe, we's just dumb hillbilly commuter pilots. We's don't understand all that high level mumbo jumbo they's there mainline pilots understand. Hell, nun of us's even been to college! They's all got advanced degrees, you know. You better just leave those there Almighty All knowing, Double Breasted Delta Pilots 'lone, 'cause they's got them the Big Picture that our tiny little hillbilly commuter pilots brains can't understand.

That's all you have, the self-inflicted martyrism. i fully admit that I don't know the bargaining practices coupled with macro-economics of regional and major flying. What i am saying is that Joe doesn't either, and that the MEC does. YOU certainly don't either, but your invaluable addition to the conversation is noted.

 

[PuffDriver]

I understand the legalities of the contract (which were changed after I got hired, but that's another story). The contract says nothing about using my influence to pressure people not to pick up open time, which is precisely what I did. It's not a concerted effort for someone who is not even on the seniority list to petition (informally) for people to avoid open time. We're on the same page on this one, I just wanted to expand a little.





This is the strategy that has led to the current situation. Airline pilots have essentially no power and when they are given a little leverage in the form of a merger that a lot of people really want to happen, they look for a short term gain. Mainline pilots are mistaken if they think keeping regional pilots separate and regional wages low is in their interest. Of course it is in the companies interest to keep connecting wages low, it is also in the companies interest to keep 777 pilots wages low and they will use all of their means to work toward that goal.

In the 80's: "We don't want turbo-props, they will just deflate L1011 wages."

90's: "We don't want Comair to have CRJ's, but they won't last anyway, there is no point of giving up any pay to get them on property."

2000's: "Crap, those CRJ's have really caught on, but as long as they are only 50 seaters...and a few 70 seaters, it will be okay. We don't want to give anything up to keep them."

Bankruptcy: "Jesus! This really sucks, try to keep anything we can. Give them 76 seaters if it means saving something."

Now: "Yeah, we have a little leverage, but we need to get back some of what we lost in bankruptcy. Those RJs will go away eventually anyway."

2010's: "Take it back! Give them DC-9 replacements to pay for it."

2020's: "Give 'em the 757 replacement if it means keeping 787 wages."

2030's: Retired airline pilot: "Remember when Delta used to actually fly airplanes? I never thought ALPA would become so powerless Delta would just replace them. Who could have seen that coming?"





I agree. However, I don't think this is the best use of leverage. In my opinion, scope is the basis of what an airline union must use to gain power. With power comes better contracts.

That all may be a bit melodramatic for my taste, but I get what you are saying. I will say that under our current agreement, 76 seats goes down to 70 immediately should 1 pilot get furloughed. it's not much, but throws a gigantic monkey wrench into that 1st class configuration that Delta so desperately desires on a clearly inferior product.

Your opinion is noted with regard to the use of leverage. I will say again that nobody is nearer to this company's financials that our company negotiators, and none of us are qualified to actually back up their assertions on this particular topic. I have spoken with our negotiators and their claims are compelling. They will not be posted here.

 

[PuffDriver]

1. I wasn't addressing the cost of a single list to negotiate.....rather I was addressing the issue you correctly raised regarding the cost/benefit to the mainline to keep regional costs low.....You brought it up and you were correct...The mainline MECs conspire with management to keep regional costs low.....It benefits BOTH of them..........or at least they think it does.....

2. A flowthrough benefits the mainline more than the regional....It gives the mainline pilots something they don't currently have.....A job in the event of furloughs with superseniority over the regional pilots....The regional pilot gets what he or she ALREADY has.....the ability to start over again at the bottom of the mainline seniority list....They can do that anyway by applying and getting hired.....

My concern is preventing mainline pilots to come in with superseniority.....and so far we have been able to avoid that at ASA.....

1) You have no proof of this, and you are out of your league in such a discussion. You are simply not in possession of the figures. Neither am I. there are more costs in regionals, and other issues believe it or not, than regional pilot costs.

2) That is not the way all flowthroughs have worked out. That is not the way the Delta flow through needed to work out. If your concern is for protecting your little turf, then you are not really interested in solving the problem--and that makes you no more or less selfish than those you accuse. There is a whole other side with a whole other perception, with pilots who have a much broader wealth of experience through all facets of aviation on a much greater scale. My betting money is on them.

 

[PuffDriver]

Don't worry JP......someday you too can be a real airline pilot if you keep working on it....

His and your postings suggest otherwise.

 

[PuffDriver]

What cracks you up? The fact is, Delta causes most of the delays in ATL....They are the rampers, the gate agents, and are responsible for servicing the aircraft.....

We aren't owned by Delta anymore.....IMO we are owned by a better company now......

that wasn't the owned I was referring to. The same gate agents, ground staff are working the flights still, and are doing a much better job under their current employer, Delta, rather than their former, ASA. Nonetheless, without staff, yours or ours you have no operation in Atlanta to give you your paycheck. Even more nonetheless, it is a very miniscule part of the very large argument from which you keep diverting.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I will say that under our current agreement, 76 seats goes down to 70 immediately should 1 pilot get furloughed. it's not much, but throws a gigantic monkey wrench into that 1st class configuration that Delta so desperately desires on a clearly inferior product.

They could put a pair of the new lie flat business elite seats and go with a three class configuration :laugh:

I understand the "flow through" Mesaba has only allows the same number that have flowed up to flow back down and NWA has not taken any of the Mesaba pilots. One List is better for mainline pilots too - not that I'm expecting it to happen.

 

[johnsonrod]

The Delta pilots better hope Lee Moak doesn't become Lee CHOKE.

 

[tbkane]

Puff to correct your post the rj 76 seat airplanes only have to go to 70 seats if I get furloughed again. Currently there are 483 hired with another class starting tomorrow...

 

[737 Pylt]

Don't worry JP......someday you too can be a real airline pilot if you keep working on it....

No he can't! And neither can you. That's why you're stuck at a regional for your life. Your lawsuit failed miserably like your pathetic airline career!:laugh: :laugh:

737

 

[Superpilot92]

They could put a pair of the new lie flat business elite seats and go with a three class configuration :laugh:

I understand the "flow through" Mesaba has only allows the same number that have flowed up to flow back down and NWA has not taken any of the Mesaba pilots. One List is better for mainline pilots too - not that I'm expecting it to happen.

You're right on the 1 for 1 but we have a mesaba flow through guy in class right now so the other part was wrong. There may have been 3 but only one was brought into class and the other 2 were given numbers but will come to class later from what i heard. But there is at least 1 mesaba flow through in class for sure.

 

[comrcap]

That may very well be the case. In Compass' case there is language in the NWA contract that prevents a sale until certain mainline fleet requirements are met. I don't know what restrictions Comair or Mesaba may have. Of course anything can be negotiated.

Comair has no scope. We were raped by our Parent DELTA

 

[FDJ2]

Comair has no scope. We were raped by our Parent DELTA

I believe CMR was acquired in 1999. How many RJs did CMR have in 1999? How many do they have today?

 

[johnsonrod]

Comair has no scope. We were raped by our Parent DELTA

How many Comair CRJs were financed by Delta?

 

[N2264J]

That is not so unusual...Delta even publishes the backgrounds of the pilots in new hire classes and maintains stats that you see copied on the web boards.

Oh, I think it's very unusual, as in odd. Serious question: What's the point for a line captain to log that information when the company publishes everybody's background?

And you're asserting this type of obsessive-complusive behavior is common among Delta captains because they haven't hired in a while? Really, this is just peculiar. Fascinating but strange.

 

[N2264J]

And you know very well that had the CMR MEC introduced a resolution supporting the hiring of DAL furloughs without resigning their seniority numbers that is all it would have taken. Management may not have done it, but the sentiment would have been there...

So empty gestures, pandering, and window dressing is ALPA's answer?

 

[N2264J]

...Since we started hiring, i also keep track of where our new hires are coming from. It ain't rocket science...

On this, we can agree. I think it's more like Rainman.

 

[PuffDriver]

On this, we can agree. I think it's more like Rainman.

The funny thing is that is all you have got. Resulting to calling somebody rainman. I write down flight times, and names for everybody, so as to annotate it into my logbook. Since we started hiring, I also jot down the airlines they came from once I noticed a trend developing.

I wouldn't even have mentioned it, Mr D.O., unless you had brought up the "reason" Delta doesn't seem to be hiring Comair pilots, and seems to be hiring ASA pilots in abundance. You were just ready to make an incorrect, blanket statement that everybody should just take for being true. Well, somebody called you on it, and you got spanked as you should have.

Funny thing about you regional guys is that you can just never admit that you were wrong. I daresay if your leader had, there would be many more Comair new hires in our ranks despite the "overwhelming cost".

Hook, line, sinker