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Delta Negotiations
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It depends on what your definition of success is.
The short story, as I'm told by my DAL buds, is they did not reach an agreement on concessions and as such their pay schedule remains unchanged.
I believe the DALPA MEC approached management with the desire to assist, but with the condition, that the proposed concessions were countered with a corresponding equity compensation and (more importantly (my words)) the prohibition of management bonuses or other 'slight of hand' payments during the giveback period.
A DAL pilot familiar with the details might want to comment on the accuracy of my statements.
The short story, as I'm told by my DAL buds, is they did not reach an agreement on concessions and as such their pay schedule remains unchanged.
I believe the DALPA MEC approached management with the desire to assist, but with the condition, that the proposed concessions were countered with a corresponding equity compensation and (more importantly (my words)) the prohibition of management bonuses or other 'slight of hand' payments during the giveback period.
A DAL pilot familiar with the details might want to comment on the accuracy of my statements.
General Lee
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PSL,
That is correct. The MEC thought it would be in our best interest to help them out and started mid-contract negotiations. But, we had three requests: 1. Contract extension (we didn't have to negotiate at all--but we did) 2. We will not take the same cuts as AA or UAL because we are not in their positions 3. Everyone must share in the cuts, and no bonuses etc. for management while we have pay cuts. The offer still stands, we did not walk out--they did. It seems funny that management would only ask the pilots for pay cuts---when we are the only ones with a union and contract. If they really needed the money, they would have TAKEN it from the other employees first.
It sounds kind of sad, but we are trying to show them that they need to contribute too---and we will not give up what we negotiated fairly. We can give them a "loan" for a couple years--but not just us--everyone. Then, when times get better, and they will eventually, we want it back. I am proud that our MEC did not give in. We want to help the company, but we want it back eventually. I think they are thinking it over right now in ATL. The other employee groups might not like it very much, but that is what they get for not protecting themselves with a union. Sorry.
Bye Bye---General Lee
That is correct. The MEC thought it would be in our best interest to help them out and started mid-contract negotiations. But, we had three requests: 1. Contract extension (we didn't have to negotiate at all--but we did) 2. We will not take the same cuts as AA or UAL because we are not in their positions 3. Everyone must share in the cuts, and no bonuses etc. for management while we have pay cuts. The offer still stands, we did not walk out--they did. It seems funny that management would only ask the pilots for pay cuts---when we are the only ones with a union and contract. If they really needed the money, they would have TAKEN it from the other employees first.
It sounds kind of sad, but we are trying to show them that they need to contribute too---and we will not give up what we negotiated fairly. We can give them a "loan" for a couple years--but not just us--everyone. Then, when times get better, and they will eventually, we want it back. I am proud that our MEC did not give in. We want to help the company, but we want it back eventually. I think they are thinking it over right now in ATL. The other employee groups might not like it very much, but that is what they get for not protecting themselves with a union. Sorry.
Bye Bye---General Lee
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~~~^~~~
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General Lee:
Pont One; you were misinformed. Management did not walk out, nor would they walk out of negotiations for concessions. Your MEC (ATL CA Rep) and the Chairman of your negotiating committee were at the Fred Reid meeting on Friday and I heard them confirm that they walked out. It is a small point, but Reid is eager to get these negotiations underway he must preserve cash to delay bankruptcy in 2004 - 2005.
Point two is that the other employee groups at Delta are paid at the industry average for their job classifications, or less. Management is actually paid close to 90% less than their peers at US Air and UAL. While we do agree that managers should not receive bonus money tied to your salary reductions, we disagree that employees paid the industry average wage should have to take cuts to offset the concessions of the mainline pilot group, which is paid 60% more than the industry average and 47% more than the next most highly compensated pilots on the planet.
I think we can agree that Delta has good folks in maintenance, marketing, finance, etc... If your union (who does not represent these employees) forces 30% across the board cuts these employees (or at least the very best ones who are wanted by your competitors) will change jobs, leaving Delta with those who were unable to find employment elsewhere.
Unlike pilots, managers can go to other places and get the same, or better, wages right away. In fact, I used to change employers because of the 20% pay hike available by going to the employer with the best offer.
You Delta pilots have a decision to make, for sure. If you continue to block management's efforts to save our company there will not be money for the mainline aircraft deliveries in 2005. Bankruptcy has always forced a reduction in flying. The fact is, these are your jobs to save, or destroy. The ball is in your Court.
Pont One; you were misinformed. Management did not walk out, nor would they walk out of negotiations for concessions. Your MEC (ATL CA Rep) and the Chairman of your negotiating committee were at the Fred Reid meeting on Friday and I heard them confirm that they walked out. It is a small point, but Reid is eager to get these negotiations underway he must preserve cash to delay bankruptcy in 2004 - 2005.
Point two is that the other employee groups at Delta are paid at the industry average for their job classifications, or less. Management is actually paid close to 90% less than their peers at US Air and UAL. While we do agree that managers should not receive bonus money tied to your salary reductions, we disagree that employees paid the industry average wage should have to take cuts to offset the concessions of the mainline pilot group, which is paid 60% more than the industry average and 47% more than the next most highly compensated pilots on the planet.
I think we can agree that Delta has good folks in maintenance, marketing, finance, etc... If your union (who does not represent these employees) forces 30% across the board cuts these employees (or at least the very best ones who are wanted by your competitors) will change jobs, leaving Delta with those who were unable to find employment elsewhere.
Unlike pilots, managers can go to other places and get the same, or better, wages right away. In fact, I used to change employers because of the 20% pay hike available by going to the employer with the best offer.
You Delta pilots have a decision to make, for sure. If you continue to block management's efforts to save our company there will not be money for the mainline aircraft deliveries in 2005. Bankruptcy has always forced a reduction in flying. The fact is, these are your jobs to save, or destroy. The ball is in your Court.
Andy Neill
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General Lee
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Fins, Fins, Fins,
Come on FINS, you're killing me. Management DID NOT agree to the three points that Dalpa offered them, so in fact they walked out in theory. Then you state that our management makes less than bankrupt carrier management---Leo gave himself a $13 million bonus last year---when we lost $1.3 Billion. And, with all of the airlines doing poorly now, I highly doubt our employees will leave Delta and go to a LCC where they will immediately make 50% less, lose what is left of their benefits, and have to start over. You must be looking for a job with Delta management---because you are good at scare tactics. The other employees decided on their own not to pay dues for protection. No union= no protection. That sucks, but it is reality. I think you are scared that Delta will come to you guys too and ask for help. Then what will you say? You will say, "I have a union, and it speaks for me..."
I know you dislike Dalpa and think that it lies constantly, but they are our protection, and they are also watching this closely. They will not let this boat sink, and we are doing a heck of a lot better than the other majors---by far. Look at our cash on hand--$3billion---up from $1.9 billion in March. That will easily service the debt. We had a $184 million PROFIT this quarter--thanx to the Gov't help which was our money that we already spent on cockpit doors and other security measures anyways. We have had a good Summer--with a $31 million operating profit for June. We had almost no affect from SARS, and our INTL flights are stuffed. SONG is growing and looking forward to a good Winter.
And, to top it off--we probably will give some pay back--which will help. That large debt payment was just refinanced (at a slightly higher rate for half of it), and we will undoubtable help pay for that, with EVERYONE ELSE. I, along with all of the Delta ALPA members, pay a lot of dues each month---the others do not. That is too bad, and I am sure this might sway them to look at representation in the future---which Delta DOES NOT WANT. This problem--our debt---is a problem for all of us, not just the pilot group. You need to realize this. I know you don't want to be affected either, but it might come around to you too, and this is a bad time to negotiate a contract obviously.
Bye Bye--General Lee
Come on FINS, you're killing me. Management DID NOT agree to the three points that Dalpa offered them, so in fact they walked out in theory. Then you state that our management makes less than bankrupt carrier management---Leo gave himself a $13 million bonus last year---when we lost $1.3 Billion. And, with all of the airlines doing poorly now, I highly doubt our employees will leave Delta and go to a LCC where they will immediately make 50% less, lose what is left of their benefits, and have to start over. You must be looking for a job with Delta management---because you are good at scare tactics. The other employees decided on their own not to pay dues for protection. No union= no protection. That sucks, but it is reality. I think you are scared that Delta will come to you guys too and ask for help. Then what will you say? You will say, "I have a union, and it speaks for me..."
I know you dislike Dalpa and think that it lies constantly, but they are our protection, and they are also watching this closely. They will not let this boat sink, and we are doing a heck of a lot better than the other majors---by far. Look at our cash on hand--$3billion---up from $1.9 billion in March. That will easily service the debt. We had a $184 million PROFIT this quarter--thanx to the Gov't help which was our money that we already spent on cockpit doors and other security measures anyways. We have had a good Summer--with a $31 million operating profit for June. We had almost no affect from SARS, and our INTL flights are stuffed. SONG is growing and looking forward to a good Winter.
And, to top it off--we probably will give some pay back--which will help. That large debt payment was just refinanced (at a slightly higher rate for half of it), and we will undoubtable help pay for that, with EVERYONE ELSE. I, along with all of the Delta ALPA members, pay a lot of dues each month---the others do not. That is too bad, and I am sure this might sway them to look at representation in the future---which Delta DOES NOT WANT. This problem--our debt---is a problem for all of us, not just the pilot group. You need to realize this. I know you don't want to be affected either, but it might come around to you too, and this is a bad time to negotiate a contract obviously.
Bye Bye--General Lee
~~~^~~~
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General Lee:
Yes, the Delta managers make around 10% of what their equals at other carriers make. But I am not advocating paying them any more.
In fact I find it very ironic that airline managers are getting paid the most at the worst performing airlines. Tilton at UAL takes the cake at 200 million for hiring McKenzie and Company for 1.5 million a day to perform what is arguably his own job. Kelleher is retired and makes more than Leo. Siegal at US Air is also a member of the 100 million plus crowd.
The DAL management team does have a good track record, even DALPA agrees. Reid says that members of his staff have been getting offers, from Richard Branson, amongst others. Whether, or not they have better offers really does not matter. There are so few of them that their compensation (at current levels) is pretty much irrelevant to the cash crunch at Delta.
And no, I don't want a job in Delta, or any other airline management. I can not conceive why anyone would want to be in management at an airline - what a thankless, difficult, stressful job. I would much rather fly a few days a month on reserve and run own my own little business.
Glad you realize we are in this togther, but it is worth noting the change - now that the DMEC wants to distribute pay cuts to employees they do not represent, despite the fact your MEC argued we were not "operationally integrated" into Delta back in 2000 when we tried to stop the DCI Portfolio of Carriers by applying for a merger.
Yes, the Delta managers make around 10% of what their equals at other carriers make. But I am not advocating paying them any more.
In fact I find it very ironic that airline managers are getting paid the most at the worst performing airlines. Tilton at UAL takes the cake at 200 million for hiring McKenzie and Company for 1.5 million a day to perform what is arguably his own job. Kelleher is retired and makes more than Leo. Siegal at US Air is also a member of the 100 million plus crowd.
The DAL management team does have a good track record, even DALPA agrees. Reid says that members of his staff have been getting offers, from Richard Branson, amongst others. Whether, or not they have better offers really does not matter. There are so few of them that their compensation (at current levels) is pretty much irrelevant to the cash crunch at Delta.
And no, I don't want a job in Delta, or any other airline management. I can not conceive why anyone would want to be in management at an airline - what a thankless, difficult, stressful job. I would much rather fly a few days a month on reserve and run own my own little business.
Glad you realize we are in this togther, but it is worth noting the change - now that the DMEC wants to distribute pay cuts to employees they do not represent, despite the fact your MEC argued we were not "operationally integrated" into Delta back in 2000 when we tried to stop the DCI Portfolio of Carriers by applying for a merger.
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General Lee
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Fins,
We are all in this together, and we all have a common interest--to keep our jobs. But, the pilots shouldn't have to be the only ones to pay when we are the only ones to have fought for a contract with our own money from dues etc. We do want to help, and will eventually. We just want to have back what we fairly negotiated when good times return. I think you can understand that my friend. We both probably know that management doesn't want anymore unions at Delta, and that could also be another reason why Delta hasn't asked them for money yet---and only asking the pilots (or union members) could give them a boost to keep more unions off the property. Most of those middle managers you speak of also probably don't want to leave ATL--and don't want to go look for another job--at Virgin America or wherever--which will probably fails anyways. (Virgin Express in Europe is NOT a major player because of the large number of LCCs in Europe---and look at the number here. Australia didn't have any--and Virgin Blue is a success) Things are getting better in the economy and Song is doing better (according to CNBC and Salvaggio's interview this morning) Gas prices will eventually fall when the Iraq oil infrastructure gets back to normal, and that will help everybody. I remember in ATL in 1996 when car gas was 76 cents a gallon. That is when airline profits soared--in the late 90's. Low oil prices will return again---but can we eventually have our great wages back??? Probably not. We are watching this closely and will eventually give some back---but as a FAMILY.(I always advocated merging the lists--Delta-ASA-Comair--but as a staple)
Bye Bye---General Lee
We are all in this together, and we all have a common interest--to keep our jobs. But, the pilots shouldn't have to be the only ones to pay when we are the only ones to have fought for a contract with our own money from dues etc. We do want to help, and will eventually. We just want to have back what we fairly negotiated when good times return. I think you can understand that my friend. We both probably know that management doesn't want anymore unions at Delta, and that could also be another reason why Delta hasn't asked them for money yet---and only asking the pilots (or union members) could give them a boost to keep more unions off the property. Most of those middle managers you speak of also probably don't want to leave ATL--and don't want to go look for another job--at Virgin America or wherever--which will probably fails anyways. (Virgin Express in Europe is NOT a major player because of the large number of LCCs in Europe---and look at the number here. Australia didn't have any--and Virgin Blue is a success) Things are getting better in the economy and Song is doing better (according to CNBC and Salvaggio's interview this morning) Gas prices will eventually fall when the Iraq oil infrastructure gets back to normal, and that will help everybody. I remember in ATL in 1996 when car gas was 76 cents a gallon. That is when airline profits soared--in the late 90's. Low oil prices will return again---but can we eventually have our great wages back??? Probably not. We are watching this closely and will eventually give some back---but as a FAMILY.(I always advocated merging the lists--Delta-ASA-Comair--but as a staple)
Bye Bye---General Lee
FlyingSig
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~~~^~~~ said:
Fins... step away from the light .... do not look into Fred's eyes .... back up slowly.
Let's take a look at some facts. Here's the referance I'm using:
http://www.ecomponline.com/
Leo Mullin's direct compensation for 2002 (not options, etc.. - we're talking his paycheck here) $2,196,188
So let's compare Leo to his peers at other airlines.
Gerald Arpey: $580,000
Leo makes $1,616,188 more or in other words 378% higher salary then his counterpart at American.
Dave Segal: $1,283,654
Leo is paid 171% higher then his counterpart at US Airways
James Parker: $492,241
Leo is paid 446% higher then his counterpart at Southwest
David Neelman: $290,000
Need I go on.... Fred can talk Enron numbers all he wants. He can exlude his secular trust while he includes Neelman's stock value. But when we talk real paychecks... well, Fred's lips were moving...
By the way, you'll find the same for Fred, Vicki, etc.. and their counterparts too.
Fred and Leo are on record comparing their salary not to their counterparts in the industry, but all company's of like size in the US (Microsoft, GE, etc..)
Sorry, but a powerpoint slide in the pilot ghetto isn't going to convince me that paycuts will save the company. Until Leo and Fred figure out that it's going to take leadership and not management to return to profitability then they are going to have a hard time finding a captive audience to look at their pretty slides.
General Lee
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Flying Sig,
Very good post, and I am glad you researched the numbers. The company wants us to get LCC wages, yet they don't want to take LCC management salaries--like Parker's at Southwest or Neeleman's at Jetblue. We should take cuts, and they should not. They are HARVARD GRADS, and we are nothing. WRONG. I am not saying we should not help this situation, but it will have to be from the whole group. Fins, I don't know what they did to you at that meeting, but in 3 seconds I want you to take a deep breath--and as I snap my fingers you will feel relaxed and refreshed.....
Bye Bye--General Lee
Very good post, and I am glad you researched the numbers. The company wants us to get LCC wages, yet they don't want to take LCC management salaries--like Parker's at Southwest or Neeleman's at Jetblue. We should take cuts, and they should not. They are HARVARD GRADS, and we are nothing. WRONG. I am not saying we should not help this situation, but it will have to be from the whole group. Fins, I don't know what they did to you at that meeting, but in 3 seconds I want you to take a deep breath--and as I snap my fingers you will feel relaxed and refreshed.....
Bye Bye--General Lee
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