Delta merger? Only if Lee Moak says so...

[Max Powers]

HAH HA HA. Really? How is your ASA scope working? You have NONE. Your precious ATRs are going away (and you back to school to hopefully pass), and that flying will probably be replaced by someone else. We have limits on regional planes, whereas you have NONE. You are the ones losing your jobs and planes. You fail to realize that our backs were against the wall in BK, with a judge watching. You keep forgetting that point. Now we don't have that, and if you remember we did quite well during the last contract negotiations prior to 9-11. Scope is a big thing to us now, since everyone can see that RJs are not good financially anymore. (were they ever?) Even Anderson concedes that. It is very doubtful that our guys will be blinded into giving away 90 or more seats. I think Moak knows that, and having the payrates for E190s and up should mean something. (even CR9s with 86 seats have Delta payrates) Anything over 76 seats will have our pilots flying it----unless MARS ATTACKS! and we have another BK. You might be wishing for that John, but I would be worrying about other things now if I were you, like CR2 limitations.


Bye Bye--General Lee

I think his point is: in any merger you don't have much say so.......unless you all just quit, that might work.


What will happen is each company's union will sell out its junior members while the company sheds all the excess capacity. Say hello to 15 to 20 year upgrades especially with age 65 coming.

 

[General Lee]

I think his point is: in any merger you don't have much say so.......unless you all just quit, that might work.


What will happen is each company's union will sell out its junior members while the company sheds all the excess capacity. Say hello to 15 to 20 year upgrades especially with age 65 coming.

No, our union has a provision in our contract that gives us the right to turn down mergers. That is the key. And, we have already parked the planes we plan to park (737-200s, 737-300s, MD11s etc). The MD88s have all been released at great lease rates (down from $280,000 a month to $80,000 a month each), so they will probably not be parked. We are getting 9 MD90s next year (all additional planes), and there are 50-70 more on the market waiting for us. We are getting 7 737-700s next year, with up to 20-25 probably coming our way according to Anderson (in a town hall meeting). He also said we are getting 8 777LRs over the next 2 years (08 and 09) with a possible 20-25 total 777LRs in the next 3 to 5 years. I call that growth. We retired everyone prior to BK, so we knew the age 65 rule would eventually come around. It is not hurting our current hiring at all, which is all based on INTL growth and some domestic growth.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[PCL_128]

Mark my words, DALPA will go along with the merger, scope will be conceded to 90 seats, and you'll get a windfall in stock in the new merged company.

Have you ever met Lee Moak? Don't underestimate him. In my opinion, the best MEC Chairman in ALPA currently. He did a superb job in handling the BK contract (even though I wish the 76-seat concession hadn't taken place). I wouldn't bet against Captain Moak.

 

[IronCityBlue]

Have you ever met Lee Moak? Don't underestimate him. In my opinion, the best MEC Chairman in ALPA currently. He did a superb job in handling the BK contract (even though I wish the 76-seat concession hadn't taken place). I wouldn't bet against Captain Moak.

I hope he can not only hold the line, but make progress moving it the other direction. CAL is holding fast at 50 seats (for now) and AA is pushing for 100% scope. Although I doubt they will get that, if they can bring the 70 in house that will be huge progess.

While there shouldn't be any outsourcing, there is no way for everyone to bring everything in house tomorrow. Re-establishing the limit at 50 seats would be amazing progress.

 

[PCL_128]

It simply isn't possible to make progress in the other direction. Once scope is gone, it's gone for good unless you have some way of creating a one-list with your regional feeders. DAL now has 10 DCI feeders, so a one-list is no longer an option for DAL. If DALPA attempted to "take back" scope, then Dan Ford would file lawsuits about DALPA "stealing" his flying. Another RJDC mess would ensue. Holding onto current scope is about as good as anyone can hope for.

 

[~~~^~~~]

PCL128:

Comair now has its own scope and its own negotiations that bind Delta. With a seat at the table a key component of the DFR claim no longer exists. Also the DAL MEC could carve out a special deal for CMR, it would be ugly politically - but as a wholly owned Delta probably has an interest in not harming their asset.

Capt. Pennecamp:

I have no idea if Moak would bend any further on scope. It only seems like a front burner issue for FO's and very junior MD88 Captains. Everyone else is looking at those 777's that are coming.

Moak would also go along with the right merger. He is making it clear that the Delta pilots will be effective in stopping the wrong merger and is providing good information to counter the effluvia being promoted by the hedge funds with their quick buck mentalities.

The Delta pilots effectively stopped the US Air deal and got more money out of their claim as a result of some skillful manuevering in turbulent financial waters. This money also helped the Comair pilots with their claim. So, given his track record, I don't know if I'd sell him short (no pun intended).

 

[General Lee]

PCL128:

Comair now has its own scope and its own negotiations that bind Delta. With a seat at the table a key component of the DFR claim no longer exists. Also the DAL MEC could carve out a special deal for CMR, it would be ugly politically - but as a wholly owned Delta probably has an interest in not harming their asset.

Capt. Pennecamp:

I have no idea if Moak would bend any further on scope. It only seems like a front burner issue for FO's and very junior MD88 Captains. Everyone else is looking at those 777's that are coming.

Moak would also go along with the right merger. He is making it clear that the Delta pilots will be effective in stopping the wrong merger and is providing good information to counter the effluvia being promoted by the hedge funds with their quick buck mentalities.

The Delta pilots effectively stopped the US Air deal and got more money out of their claim as a result of some skillful manuevering in turbulent financial waters. This money also helped the Comair pilots with their claim. So, given his track record, I don't know if I'd sell him short (no pun intended).

Only MD88 FOs and Junior 88 Captains care about Scope? Come on Fins. I would think a lot more than half of the pilots care. Why? More than half have been directly affected by RJ growth. In BK we had little choice about scope movement, thanks to a BK judge watching over our shoulders. Even though it was a small movement in seat numbers, that movement cannot be taken back. We all know that, and most agree that while first class seats were needed even on the 70 seaters (for our best passengers that have to fly on RJs), we don't want to see too many of them. Even senior 767ER Captains I fly with continually cuss out RJs at any chance, while taxiing behind them or following the ubiquitous RJ on final. We all know this has become a "problem", one that helped our demise into BK. So, I don't think Moak would agree to any proposal, even a higher pay or more 777s proposal. I think we want more mainline planes (MD90s etc) and even E190s if we could get them. Again, a lot more than half of the list has directly been affected, and we know it. Just go to any Delta hub and see what Delta has become. It is very apparent, and most of the guys who really didn't care retired early a few years ago.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[~~~^~~~]

General: Slight correction - I wrote FO's (as in all of them) and Junior Captains. I hope you are right.

 

[IronCityBlue]

It simply isn't possible to make progress in the other direction. Once scope is gone, it's gone for good unless you have some way of creating a one-list with your regional feeders. DAL now has 10 DCI feeders, so a one-list is no longer an option for DAL. If DALPA attempted to "take back" scope, then Dan Ford would file lawsuits about DALPA "stealing" his flying. Another RJDC mess would ensue. Holding onto current scope is about as good as anyone can hope for.

Sure he could sue, but so what? He would never win. And the regionals gave up any claim to seat specific scope when they agreed to fly 70-90+ seat jets for at or extremely close to 50 seat pay. But if DF's lawsuits were nevertheless a concern, there are ways around that.

For example, every ALPA legacy outsources plenty of flying to non ALPA carriers. They could first reclaim that flying. Then they could reclaim all flying from ALPA regionals slowly through attrition (thus causing no furloughs). That process could be accelerated and mitigated by hiring exclusively from the ALPA regionals until all the flying was brought in house.

No carrier can expect ALPA to guarantee other ALPA carriers forever allow their code to be outsourced. With each contract and side letter comes the chance that outsourcing could be increased, decreased or eliminated. Every ALPA pilot group has the right to dictate the terms of their flying to their management. An amicable one list scenario would be preferrable, but if RJ pilots demanded mainline seniority (which many in power, like DF, most certainlly would) then other means would be available.

Take Delta again for example. DALPA could force the elimination of all SKYW and CHQ flying and force management to hire exclusively ALPA pilot groups (something all ALPA scope clauses should contain anyway) and all jets above 50 seats. That would force massive ammounts of flying to ASA, Comair and Pinnacle. For every 70 and 90 seater that was removed from an ALPA regional, it would be replaced by at least one 50 seater, probably more. The miniscule pay difference (the only other potential "harm" to ALPA groups) could be paid for out of the ALPA kitty. What are we talking about, a couple bucks an hour primarilly for the Captain seats only? If that's career dammaging then fine, reimburse them but take those airframes back.

AA wouldn't have a care in the world because they have their own union.

CAL doesn't allow any jet over 50 seats anyway.

UAL primarily subs to non ALPA carriers.

If SWA is dumb enough to outsource jets to anyone, they will likewise be 100% theirs to reclaim at their liesure at any time.

USAir could still do it if they remained ALPA by ALPA paying the miniscule pay differential to Mesa, PSA, etc. If USAir leaves ALPA and certifies USAPA they could just do it at will.

That leaves only NWA, and most is not all their large jets are going to Compass anyway, which is already controlled by the NWA MEC isn't it?

Again, all this couldn't be done in one day, but it could and should be started immediately. If its not reversable then eventually MESA will be flying 777's for DAL, UAL, etc. The "line in the sand" is 76 seats installed, but next downturn (which may already be here) some knucklehead pilot group will allow max certifiable. Then the CRJ1000 and E175, 190 and 195 max certifiable. Then small 737's and 318's, since they seat the same afterall. Then the big 737's and 320/321's because the regionals already operate that overall type, etc etc etc.

 

[John Pennekamp]

The way ASA is looking these days, looks like you very well could be an FO for life there after the downgrades and shrinking occurs. Man alive, it is amazing what has happened to ASA. You used to be the big commuter at ATL, and now you barely hold on to the "largest" regional title there. You were large in DFW and even had a SLC and LAX base. Where did it all go?

I think you need to start worrying about your own situation. Dalpa and Moak have a good hold on our current situation, as the article suggests. He also knows about our scope limit, and without a judge looking over him, it is highly doubtful he would give that away. But, if you know otherwise, well then there you have it. Thanks for your wise words.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Gee whiz, General, despite all this "shrinking" it seems to me that we have never furloughed a single pilot. In fact, our seniority list has GROWN over the last 7 years. Prior to last year, when DAL started hiring, how has yours done?

As for not giving away scope "without a judge looking over him", why did'nt that stop the two scope concessions PRIOR to the BK? And what makes you think DAL won't just file BK again if you don't give them what they want. They're already 'saying $3 jet fuel "wasn't in the reorganization plan".

 

[John Pennekamp]

HAH HA HA. Really? How is your ASA scope working? You have NONE. Your precious ATRs are going away (and you back to school to hopefully pass), and that flying will probably be replaced by someone else.

I think that most of our peers would agree that only a complete and utter jerk would wish (and even cheer for) a fellow pilot to lose his position, or even job. Clearly you've never faced such. In fact, I'll wager that you've never fought for anything... you've had it handed to you on a silver platter your whole life.

We have limits on regional planes, whereas you have NONE.

Why would a REGIONAL airline have limits on regional planes?

Actually, we do now the have a clause binding the holding company to ASA pilots contract. This scope prevents them from farming out flying out to say, a Colgan, or even SkyWest without taking the pilots. But I wouldn't expect you to have researched that before running your mouth.

You are the ones losing your jobs and planes.

And you overflow with glee at that notion. Just remember, Karma is a bitch. Oh, btw, tell us how many ASA pilots have lost their jobs due to a reduction in force in the history of ASA (hint: it's a round number).

You fail to realize that our backs were against the wall in BK, with a judge watching. You keep forgetting that point. Now we don't have that,

What about the concessions pre-bankruptcy? What short term memory you guys have. Does that big metal triangle on your forehead interfere with the brain waves or something?

and if you remember we did quite well during the last contract negotiations prior to 9-11.

Yes, I fecall the "United plus!" bumper stickers. How did that work out for you?

Let's see... you were the highest paid airline pilots in the world... for about a year and a half. Then you gave two concessions, but your company still went bankrupt, and then you gave back more thaq you had in 2000 before the contract. Yeah, good move DALPA.

Scope is a big thing to us now, since everyone can see that RJs are not good financially anymore. (were they ever?) Even Anderson concedes that.

So Scope is NOW a big issue? Guess it wasn't before since everybody and his brother is flying a 76 seat jet with a lazy (laying down) and embarrassed (red) Widget on the tail.

It is very doubtful that our guys will be blinded into giving away 90 or more seats. I think Moak knows that, and having the payrates for E190s and up should mean something. (even CR9s with 86 seats have Delta payrates)

Let's discuss those pay rates. Why don't you post them for us. Then everyone can see that they're below the rates of several DCI carriers for that airframe, including ASA. And I thought MESA were the hos of the industry. Way to go General!!!

Anything over 76 seats will have our pilots flying it----unless MARS ATTACKS! and we have another BK.

Uh huh. And you'll be flying them for less than we currently fly CRJ-700s. Enjoy! That is if you're not too good to fly a "Barbie jet", like you were in the 90s when you gave them up.

You might be wishing for that John, but I would be worrying about other things now if I were you, like CR2 limitations.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Gee, thanks for telling me what to worry about, Dad. I have a theory that you wouldn't speak to me the way you do if you met me in person. You're nothing but a big mouthed [metaphor for a cat] who is short on facts, and long on opinion. And I guarantee you got your lunch money stolen in high school. Now you're a Big Man because you assist a captain in flying a B767ER. And the truly funny thing is that you think anybody is impressed when you brag about it. Guess that's all you have in your life... oh, sorry, I forgot about the mail order Ukrainian bride.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Have you ever met Lee Moak? Don't underestimate him. In my opinion, the best MEC Chairman in ALPA currently. He did a superb job in handling the BK contract (even though I wish the 76-seat concession hadn't taken place). I wouldn't bet against Captain Moak.

I have met him. He's nothing compared to Malone. Moak pounds the podium and makes threats. He has shut the door on the DCI groups. Malone was making progress to accomplish the same goals, by working WITH the DCI groups. I honestly believe we'd be very close to one list if they hadn't trumped up charges and replaced him... for that very reason. See, the Delta pilots believe they're better than us (and everybody else for that matter) and aren't going to allow a bunch of hacks "with no degrees and 3 DUIs" into their cockpits. Not that that really describes out pilot group, but just ask them. That's why we "couldn't make it to a real airline".

 

[John Pennekamp]

It simply isn't possible to make progress in the other direction. Once scope is gone, it's gone for good unless you have some way of creating a one-list with your regional feeders. DAL now has 10 DCI feeders, so a one-list is no longer an option for DAL. If DALPA attempted to "take back" scope, then Dan Ford would file lawsuits about DALPA "stealing" his flying. Another RJDC mess would ensue. Holding onto current scope is about as good as anyone can hope for.

I'm glad that you agree that RJDC had a deterrent effect when Delta was shrinking. As a former ASA MEC member, I can tell you that we all agreed that RJDC lawsuit threat was the only thing keeping DALPA from taking our -700s in a "jets for jobs" scenario. But we never discussed that at the dinners with the boys from Herndon.

 

[John Pennekamp]

The Delta pilots effectively stopped the US Air deal and got more money out of their claim as a result of some skillful manuevering in turbulent financial waters. This money also helped the Comair pilots with their claim. So, given his track record, I don't know if I'd sell him short (no pun intended).

You're kidding, right? I swear, the Delta Pilots would claim credit for splitting the atom if that pesky Einstein wasn't so well known. The arrogance coming from the 2nd floor corner office of of 100 Hartsfield Center Circle never seems to amaze me.

The Delta Pilots had little to do with killing the merger. Their role was no larger than any of the other Delta employee groups. What really killed the merger was Grinstein and Delta management's brilliant "Keep Delta My Delta" campaign, coupled with lobbying the BOD and Stakeholders to trust them.

 

[9rj9]

If the stock continues to fall, Skybus might just buy them